Trying to work it all out

[Coupleerotic22]

I had resisted posting to this thread for a number of reasons. First, we have never had to deal with it, so my thoughts are purely conjecture. Second, this is the thing that frightens me most about swinging, that one of us will find strong emotional attachment with a playmate, maybe not love, but approaching it.

But now that MrsVan has chimed in, things are more clear for me now.

One of the few rules we have is our family and relationship comes before anything else. If either of starts to realize we are having serious feelings then we back away from the situation and protect our relationship. I know poly is an option for some, but not all, we fall into the latter. We had a talk in bed about this very thread and have both reiterated those feelings.

Unfortunately, emotions are something like a horizon-less cliff, you don't see it coming until it is right there in front of you.

Not being poly, I can only make assumptions, but it seems to me to be similar to swinging in this regard, if everyone is not on-board then it is a no go. Clearly MrsVan, and apparently the other husband, if not the wife, are not on-board with a poly relationship.

So where does this leave MrVan? Driving off the cliff or hitting the breaks as hard as you can and hope it is not too late. No doubt, easier said than done. Clearly, you have lost something in your relationship with MrsVan. That would have been a logical assumption, but it was also clearly stated by MrsVan. My guess, that loss is primarily trust, but maybe other things as well.

This is my perspective and I don't expect everyone to agree with it. But if I were in your shoes, or MrsVan's shoes, I would want a break away from this couple for a while at least. Maybe not an end to the friendship, but certainly a hiatus. Just to give time for everything to cool down. I would not want to swing with them again, ever, it would just be too difficult for all parties involved. I would want to take a break from swinging as well, perhaps even a permanent break. I know that may sound extreme, but our relationship is too precious for me to tarnish, let alone break.

In my mind there are only three things that can happen:
A Poly relationship - clearly not an option here.
A broken relationship - that does not sound like what either of you want
A mended relationship - seems to be the best solution, but possibly the most difficult to achieve.

What you and MrsVan decide to do should be based on what you both feel and agree that you can handle, but if I were in your shoes I would want to go the extra mile to make sure our relationship was sound and trust was returned. IF this is not 'true love", just strong feelings or "puppy love" then you should be able to pack those feelings away until they subside on their own, because true love with your wife would trump them everytime

Again, just my opinion, it is worth what you are paying for it.

Good luck, I hope this all works out well for both of you.

[lovinher]

To Mrs. Van....Between all lines and regardless of what others have said. Mr. Van needs to decide who is more important. If it is you, and I hope it is because we have been on the board long enough to have a feeling of who or what type of people you two are. Those that are saying to Mr. Van to go with his feelings. To try to work it out so he can have his cake and eat it too, are not considering your feelings. You obviously do not want that. This must be heartbreaking for you and is bullshit. In this case it has to be one or the other and I don't feel Mr.Van in realizing that or is oblivious to what this is doing to you.

To Mr.Van. So who is more important? Your wife or your hormone driven other? What you are doing is not fair to the woman you married. Don't you realize how you must be making her feel? Of course you do! But in a way I hope you don't because if you do, then your being extremely selfish and not much of a man to man up and drop the other. Sure it will be hard . But you are only thinking of yourself. Plain and simple, period. Put the shoe on the other foot. If it would hurt you extremely then you know what to do. I have no respect for someone who would put the woman they are supposedly still in love with through this. Regardless of your excuses. Hormones are powerful. True love is fore ever-remember that. So cave in to the hormones running through your brain and you will end up miserable. If what you say is true about your feelings for wife, there is only one thing to do-drop the other and stay a mile away regardless of the friendship situation. Get some balls and do the right thing.

Originally Posted by Coupleerotic22

This is my perspective and I don't expect everyone to agree with it. But if I were in your shoes, or MrsVan's shoes, I would want a break away from this couple for a while at least. Maybe not an end to the friendship, but certainly a hiatus. Just to give time for everything to cool down. I would not want to swing with them again, ever, it would just be too difficult for all parties involved. I would want to take a break from swinging as well, perhaps even a permanent break. I know that may sound extreme, but our relationship is too precious for me to tarnish, let alone break.
.

Thanks for your post! I want to quote you on this part of your post however and make it clear we have been on a break from swinging for over a year due to issues that we have posted before on this site. Life has not been kind to us and therefore we had to choose to take a break. With this other couple, we have NEVER had a sexual encounter in the time that we have all been together. This is a relationship that was clearly from the beginning strictly very close friends. The dynamics of it all changed over time, and while there would be flirting, etc they knew about us in the LS and accepted us for who we were.

I want to make it clear to everyone here that I know my husband loves me, and I know that I have no worries of losing him to her because she will never leave her husband and well I am confident that MrVan would not leave me. Right now trust has been broken and there is a lot to repair for me. While we struggle with this issue, we all four are on the same page that we do NOT want to lose the friendship we have and we are all willing to try to work through this.

We are all trying to talk this out and last night I met up with my best friend to get her side and she also has feelings for MrVan but says they are the same feelings for me. So if she is "in love" with MrVan then she is "in love" with me. Where does that leave us? I do not know but I know that I do not want to lose my husband or my best friend.

I thank everyone for their posts and hope that in time, we can heal the wounds and get past this obstacle one way or another.

MrsVan

Lovinher,

I know that MrVan loves me and feels that our marriage is more important. He has offered to step out of the friendship completely. While he would not be happy he is willing to take that step. So please know that he is trying to find ways to repair what has been broken. The entire group has made it clear that they do not want to lose the friendship we all have. Right now I have advised MrVan and my best friend that I do not want them to meet alone any longer. The only way that they will get to see each other is when they play volleyball(which the other husband plays with them and I am usually there as well) or when all four of us get together. I feel that some of the time they spent together alone helped increase feelings that MrVan had for her and just intensified those feelings. And I think in some respect this is the same for my best friend. I am hoping that by slowing things down and making these changes that maybe things will work themselves out and we can start to repair the wounds.

MrsVan

[Coupleerotic22]

Originally Posted by MrsVan

Thanks for your post! I want to quote you on this part of your post however and make it clear we have been on a break from swinging for over a year due to issues that we have posted before on this site. Life has not been kind to us and therefore we had to choose to take a break. With this other couple, we have NEVER had a sexual encounter in the time that we have all been together. This is a relationship that was clearly from the beginning strictly very close friends. The dynamics of it all changed over time, and while there would be flirting, etc they knew about us in the LS and accepted us for who we were.

I want to make it clear to everyone here that I know my husband loves me, and I know that I have no worries of losing him to her because she will never leave her husband and well I am confident that MrVan would not leave me. Right now trust has been broken and there is a lot to repair for me. While we struggle with this issue, we all four are on the same page that we do NOT want to lose the friendship we have and we are all willing to try to work through this.

We are all trying to talk this out and last night I met up with my best friend to get her side and she also has feelings for MrVan but says they are the same feelings for me. So if she is "in love" with MrVan then she is "in love" with me. Where does that leave us? I do not know but I know that I do not want to lose my husband or my best friend.

I thank everyone for their posts and hope that in time, we can heal the wounds and get past this obstacle one way or another.

MrsVan

I apologize for misspeaking. I do remember reading that previously. I had just forgotten. As I said I had no intention of posting to this thread, I just did not feel I had anything to add. But your post moved me to do so. It sounds like you have much more of a grasp of what you want and where you need to go than you think. Good luck.

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by MrsVan

I want to make it clear to everyone here that I know my husband loves me, and I know that I have no worries of losing him to her because she will never leave her husband and well I am confident that MrVan would not leave me.

Quoting MrsVan, but responding to lovinher, I don't think there's any question of a choice as to who MrVan wants to be with. I never for a moment doubted he wanted to be with MrsVan, period. This is deeper than that.

MrVan finds himself in an unusual (for him) situation. He loves his wife dearly, and also finds himself loving another woman. This is very hard on him. He's (as this thread is titled) trying to work it all out. It's difficult. Very difficult. I don't detect in any of this that he is wanting to make an either 'a' or 'b' (or 'c' or 'd') choice.

Originally Posted by MrsVan

Right now trust has been broken and there is a lot to repair for me.

Perhaps I've missed something. I don't see that MrVan has broken trust. I think he's been slowly struggling with an issue and has, when he could verbalize it, tried to discuss it with you. I don't see in any of this that he has broken trust. I'm not saying you have to have an action to break trust. Far from it. I think a person can 'cheat' without action, though it's often more obscure without action. I don't know your relationship, and all the sequence of events and thoughts that have transpired in this situation. But, from what I've seen, MrVan hasn't done something to break trust.

Originally Posted by MrsVan

While we struggle with this issue, we all four are on the same page that we do NOT want to lose the friendship we have and we are all willing to try to work through this.

That's the juggling act you find yourself in. It will be hard.

Originally Posted by MrsVan

I thank everyone for their posts and hope that in time, we can heal the wounds and get past this obstacle one way or another.

You will! Of that I'm quite certain.

[slevin]

Originally Posted by MrsVan

Lovinher,

I know that MrVan loves me and feels that our marriage is more important. He has offered to step out of the friendship completely. While he would not be happy he is willing to take that step. So please know that he is trying to find ways to repair what has been broken. The entire group has made it clear that they do not want to lose the friendship we all have. Right now I have advised MrVan and my best friend that I do not want them to meet alone any longer. The only way that they will get to see each other is when they play volleyball(which the other husband plays with them and I am usually there as well) or when all four of us get together. I feel that some of the time they spent together alone helped increase feelings that MrVan had for her and just intensified those feelings. And I think in some respect this is the same for my best friend. I am hoping that by slowing things down and making these changes that maybe things will work themselves out and we can start to repair the wounds.

MrsVan

I wonder if the long standing tension of potential play with her hasn't helped to inflate the intensity of those feelings. I wouldn't recommend playing with them, but it makes me curious if those feelings would have been as intense if that tension hadn't been allowed to build. Of course, that doesn't help you sort out your situation though.

[VanHlebar]

I had started a response here but had to put the keyboard down and think more on my response. Now the power is out and I am on my phone so it will need to wait until later. I will respond and give more information that will clarify things for people i promise. Thank you to and eberyone of you for your thoughtful posts.

-Van

[LikeMinds321]

Originally Posted by slevin

I wonder if the long standing tension of potential play with her hasn't helped to inflate the intensity of those feelings. I wouldn't recommend playing with them, but it makes me curious if those feelings would have been as intense if that tension hadn't been allowed to build....

Precisely my thoughts.

A year and a half is a long time to want to have sex, make "love" with, a woman for whom you have feelings and see/communicate with regularly. Although you all saw each other naked while playing titilating games some time ago, that isn't the same as sex with a person. Mr Van, I think it be reasonable to say that you have though about, and been longing for, sex with this woman for a long time.

I'm not a Poly person, nor is my husband, and neither of us are open to it for a variety of reasons. I wanted to mention this so people know what my position is, because I think it influences my opinion.

I'm going to speak from a vanilla standpoint, more than a swinger standpoint, because I think the fact that Mr/Mrs Van are swingers has little/nothing to do with their dilemma.

Eighteen months ago Mr Van knew he was falling for (in love, maybe?) with his wife's best friend. From your posts, I'm not sure how clearly he expressed this early on to Mrs Van, or if Mr Van has only now expressed his feelings with unsettling clarity.

There have got be plently of "my husband says he's fallen love with my best friend" stories out there in the world. This is what we've got here. I don't think anyone really wants a poly relationship here. Mr Van, I think considering poly is a way of trying to keep two woman in your life. I believe it is an honest attempt on your part, but I don't think it is practical. Mrs Van is not open to it, I don't think she should be expected to change her mind, so waiting for her to come 'round to poly is not advice I can agree with.

Mr and Mrs Van, I wish you both a satisfactory resolution that will bring calm relief and strength within you.

LM

[DocWill]

I did my best to stay away from this thread because I didn’t feel like anything I had to say would have any bearing on the situation or outcome (not that I would want it to), but there are so many similarities to many different personal experiences that I just couldn’t help adding my $0.02- for what it’s worth.

LM made a good point in saying that this (on the surface at least) really has little to do with swinging- and I think that point needs to be stressed here in this thread. I have known several vanilla couples who were very close with other couples (or even casual acquaintances) that ended up in this dilemma. In fact, it’s almost a societal cliché that dates back to the beginning of written history. That being said, there are a couple of positives to take away from this thread IMO:

For one, MrVan’s honesty (or perhaps integrity is a better word) with the situation is something a lot of people lack. If I had a dollar for every married person I knew that just “went with their feelings” or “let the chips fall where they may” when it came to feelings for someone other than their spouse I’d be able to swing a decent bar tab. The second thing to take away from this (though not a comfortable thought to many) is that developing feelings of affection towards close friends, especially those of the opposite sex, is normal- it’s the action one takes on those feelings, and the perceptions held by those affected by the situation, that determines the “morality” of the situation. In this case, MrVan’s feelings, while normal given the close nature of the relationship, are having an adverse affect on other people. That, in and of itself, is a no brainer- and I think Mr and MrsVan have stated as much. Another good thing about this thread is the communication process displayed here- and I feel, barring any unexpected or forbidden actions, that this will work itself out for the better as far as Mr and MrsVan are concerned because they CAN talk openly about their feelings- feelings that many people feel are taboo, but in reality are quite "normal."

I believe that it is possible to be in love or have feelings of affection for two different people under certain circumstances… and I’m a firm believer that a person (unless they’re a true Type A) can’t avoid developing those feelings in situations where societal norms are pushed or broken. I don’t think there is any “explanation” that MrVan can give that will clarify the situation- it is what it is simply because it’s possible- if that makes any sense. The trick here is moving forward- and that’s just not something that’s easily explained away on a message board. There are too many variables that rely on personal traits, past histories, and socialization for that to be possible.

As always, I believe identifying and understanding the “why” is more important than the “it.” Once a person can figure out the “why” behind an emotional dilemma they can understand and deal with the result. My advice would be to continue talking this out… first with each other and then with the other couple. This is really tricky territory, but if you have the trust… then the rest will come with time and patience.

Last thing, I don't think having sex would have changed things. There's a fine line (IMO) between forbidden fruit, temptation, and actual love. If anything, a physical encounter would have made this worse. Just make sure the feelings are accurate and not some misguided desire. Again, it's the "why" that needs figuring out.

Originally Posted by Coupleerotic22

I apologize for misspeaking. I do remember reading that previously. I had just forgotten. As I said I had no intention of posting to this thread, I just did not feel I had anything to add. But your post moved me to do so. It sounds like you have much more of a grasp of what you want and where you need to go than you think. Good luck.

No problem about the misspeaking Sometimes on the board it is very hard to remember all the details.

While appreciate your kind words about my grasp of things, I feel like I am far from it. It will take time for me to heal and get past this. I know what I want and that is to repair my marriage and to keep my best friend. I know I am blessed to have them in my life but just not sure where to go from here but I will figure it out I am sure.

MrsVan

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

Perhaps I've missed something. I don't see that MrVan has broken trust. I think he's been slowly struggling with an issue and has, when he could verbalize it, tried to discuss it with you. I don't see in any of this that he has broken trust. I'm not saying you have to have an action to break trust. Far from it. I think a person can 'cheat' without action, though it's often more obscure without action. I don't know your relationship, and all the sequence of events and thoughts that have transpired in this situation. But, from what I've seen, MrVan hasn't done something to break trust.

The reason that I am saying trust was broken is becuase they both went shopping last week before all this came out over the weekend and I found out with everything else that they shared a passionate kiss and MrVan had put his hand up her skirt while kissing. This in a group does not bother me but this is something that a boundary was broken and this is why I say that trust has been broken and why I have to find a way to build the trust again between us.

As for everyone else's posts...I have to come and say that while I am struggling with what has come out, I have in fact known about these feelings that MrVan has had for my best friend. The problem was when it first came out he made it out to be that he had strong feelings for her but then he came back after afraid to hurt my feelings and said that maybe they are just feelings for a friend but not as strong as he is making it out to be. I allowed for them to continue to get together during the day for coffee or if she needed a babysitter, or to get together for lunch and shopping but now looking back I wonder if all of this helped to increase the emotions he had for her by allowing him alone time with her. I know that MrVan cannot help what he is feeling. I know that he did not seek for this to happen and had no intention on hurting me. That I get..I will agree with DocWill in which we do have great communication and have been open and honest with each other from the day we met. I was even told by my best friend last night how much she admires the open communication we have because so many people do not have that with their spouses. I can say that while we have great communication some mistakes where made along the way over the year with this situation in which everything has not been communicated well to me and things have come out after the fact but I know that MrVan and I can work on this and get our communication back on track.

I know that MrVan posted this to get help with the situation. He has feelings that I can not change and I cannot make them go away. They are what they are. Now it is the struggle of finding a way to deal with this.

I thank everyone for their posts and advise! This is the reason we love coming here because we get honest opinions and some great advise. We appreciate the support and the advise!

MrsVan

[cplnuswing]

Originally Posted by LikeMinds321

I'm going to speak from a vanilla standpoint, more than a swinger standpoint, because I think the fact that Mr/Mrs Van are swingers has little/nothing to do with their dilemma.

There have got be plently of "my husband says he's fallen love with my best friend" stories out there in the world. This is what we've got here. I don't think anyone really wants a poly relationship here.

I think this is absolutely true. Although Mr/Mrs Van are swingers and their friends, while not swingers, are certainly Lifestyle-aware for lack of a better term, I don't think the path forward must lie in some sort of swinging or polyamory solution. In fact, insisting on looking for an answer there could very likely make things worse.

I believe that the first hurdle one must clear when faced with any betrayal of trust or deep disappointment from someone you love is to truly accept that things have changed no matter how badly you wish things would have remained the way they were. That does not mean that when all is said and done, the overall sum of the change can't be positive though. Some areas of the relationship may have suffered a setback, but others may have improved leading to an overall stronger relationship.

Some relationships make it through a stress test and come out stronger on the other side, but sadly some don't come out at all. But, I think the one's that do become stronger are the one's where both parties involved come to grips early on that things have changed from the way they were and that for there to be hope of success, everyone most focus their efforts on moving forward to a different place, not move backwards in a futile attempt to recreate exactly what was there before.

In this case, achieving this is going to be twice as hard. Not only are Mr. and Mrs. Van trying to find their way forward with their relationship, they both are wanting to maintain the friendship the way it was. I think that you both already have a great start on working through this in your own relationship with your open communication, honesty, etc. What I think you are going to find much more difficult is maintaining the friendship in the way it was before while strengthening your own. That may be an impossible expectation to meet, and although it's hard to accept the loss or reduction of true friendship, you have to balance what the costs of continuing to pursue that will be to your own relationship and personal happiness.

Good luck to all of you in working through this.

[lovinher]

I'm sorry but given the feelings they have for each other and the admitted lack of trust on your part, I don't see how a friendship with this couple can be possible. There is no switch to turn off feelings of this nature. There's no magic wand to make it go away. It's going to be a very hard choice to make. But IMO, it's the only one. Either way, somebody is going to get hurt. And Mrs. Van, yours already are and Mr Van is the only one who can fix that.
I can't blame him for his feelings but he is the only one who can fix this and the choice is obvious.

Good luck to you both.

[VanHlebar]

Ok, so where to begin? First this will be long and I apologize for taking so long to get back here to answer everyone. Life and other items such as network going down kept me from being able to use the laptop and although small posts work from my Android, not something like this.

First I want to say thank you to every single member that has participated here. This is THE reason we love this forum. We have been around here for a number of years now and although reading some of the responses has been difficult for me, every single one has given me something to think about or look at our situation from a different perspective. I will try my best to answer all of you the questions that where asked to me, if I miss your specific question, please let me know, it wasn't on purpose, just so much here now.

One other piece of housekeeping. I have given the link to my GF and have encouraged her to at the very least come here and read this so that she and her husband can keep up on what MrsVan and I are talking about to others. I have also encouraged her to join and participate in this discussion if she would like and I explained that it could be very helpful to her, as well as to us. She has already read the thread I started at a different forum.

Now, many including MrsVan have indicated that a poly situation is not going to work. I myself have indicated and agreed with MrsVan and my GF that what I am looking for is NOT a poly arrangement, in the true sense I guess. I would argue and I have said this to MrsVan already, and she sort of agreed, we have basically been living in this type of arrangement for the past year and half or more. Poly does not have to be all four members of a group having emotions for each other. It also does not have to have any sexual relationship involved to be called poly. I will be specific here so that everyone understands what my "ideal" situation would be out of where we are. I want what I already had with my GF prior to me having a serious lapse in judgment last week AND prior to my feels for my GF and hers for me, coming out. We already would meet at times for coffee, lunch, go shopping or run errands together. MrsVan has once even watched my GF's little one so that her and I could go watch a movie that MrsVan and her husband had no interest in going to see. At one point in time, all four of us where on the same page about playing together. It was going to happen and everyone was very ok with that. I would still like to go with that for EVERYONE, not just because I am sexually attracted to my GF. Now with all of that said, that is my "ideal" situation. I know that my ideal situation and reality are not going to be the same, maybe never. I am ok with that, but everyone needed to know what I am looking for so we have a starting point. And while I would agree with MrsVan, my GF and everyone else that says a poly situation is not the place to be, I would argue that we where/are there already. Poly, just like swinging comes in my flavors. I have learned over the last few years that labels suck and I think in this situation, the label of "poly" is causing some issues, but that is another topic for another day.

Originally Posted by LikeMinds321

A year and a half is a long time to want to have sex, make "love" with, a woman for whom you have feelings and see/communicate with regularly. Although you all saw each other naked while playing titilating games some time ago, that isn't the same as sex with a person. Mr Van, I think it be reasonable to say that you have though about, and been longing for, sex with this woman for a long time.

This is absolutely true. I know that in our group there is not a single person who would disagree with this. As a little more history I will add, that our "games" began around March or so of last year. I realized I was having feelings for my GF way before that time. So while it could/will be stated that the swinging aspect may have increased/caused these feelings, I am not convinced of this. I can't not say for sure it has not increased the feelings either, I just don't know. I just know where I am and I would also say that one would think that 18mos is a VERY long time to desire someone without having that desire fade. How many of you can say that you have had that desire for a play partner without ever having the actual opportunity to play with that partner and have it remain in tack for that long? I would venture to guess that most of you would have left that play partner long ago realizing that it wasn't going to happen. I say this to try to put into perspective that this is more than just a sex and play situation.

Originally Posted by LikeMinds321

There have got be plently of "my husband says he's fallen love with my best friend" stories out there in the world. This is what we've got here. I don't think anyone really wants a poly relationship here. Mr Van, I think considering poly is a way of trying to keep two woman in your life. I believe it is an honest attempt on your part, but I don't think it is practical. Mrs Van is not open to it, I don't think she should be expected to change her mind, so waiting for her to come 'round to poly is not advice I can agree with.

I am going to quote you LM, but I am responding to more than just you, just easier this way. I have seen a couple of times something similar to this or the statement of "MrVan just want his cake and eat it to." I would say to this, don't we all? Haven't most of us on this board that are involved in swinging at some level, or at least open to it, wanting our cake and eating it too? Haven't we made a conscious decision to go against what society tell us, that we must love AND have sex with only the person that we are married to or committed to? Please explain to me, how your wanting your cake and eating it to, is any different than mine? Why because mine has love attached to it and it isn't just purely for sex? I absolutely want my cake and eat it to. I have to agree with DocWill, while on the surface this really can appear to be your typical thread of "damn I fell for my wife's best friend and I don't want to lose them both". However, most of those are the husbands coming here looking for a way to tell their wife or asking for help hiding it or trying to figure out how they can use swinging to keep everything. Sorry, but I have been honest and upfront about my feelings with MrsVan, my GF and her husband. No hiding anything in this group. I am not using Poly as a means to an ends here. I posted it in this group because this is where it fit best. Let me tell you something, coming out to my wife regarding my feelings about my GF the first time was the SCARIEST thing I have ever done in my entire life. Someone described it to me elsewhere best, it is like looking out over a cliff and seeing water way below. You know in your heart you are going to jump, but you don't know if there are rocks at the bottom or if it is even deep enough. I also had to consider our friends and what this would do to their relationship. Again not an easy thing to do.

Originally Posted by cplnuswing

I think this is absolutely true. Although Mr/Mrs Van are swingers and their friends, while not swingers, are certainly Lifestyle-aware for lack of a better term, I don't think the path forward must lie in some sort of swinging or polyamory solution. In fact, insisting on looking for an answer there could very likely make things worse.

Love you guys and I just had to quote this for the term mostly. I 100% agree with the term and actually I would look back to a thread on here from a few years ago where it was debated that being in the lifestyle was/could be more of a mindset than the activity, but anyway again a different topic for a different day... I agree that looking at swinging now or at all could be dangerous, which is why everyone understands that stuff has been shelved, maybe for good. First thing to do is start rebuilding my trust with MrsVan and start addressing how we manage the friendship going forward. Like it or not,things have changed in our group, only time will tell if it is for good or for bad.

Originally Posted by Alura

I'm just a hick Okie, Van, and I can't say I've had any experience with Polyamory, but it seems to me that you have two choices ...

Oh Alura, we have gotten to know each other over the years through this board and your shtick of "I am just the guy from the sticks that don't know nothing" is so funny. Your posts on any subject on this board have always been insightful and I have always enjoyed reading your posts. Your life experiences that you share and your wisdom are priceless and this board is so much better for having you here! I do love the shtick though my friend, I use it often myself.

Originally Posted by The Fuse

The "no unsupervised visits" thing says loudly and clearly to me that he is afraid of what would happen if you were alone with his wife. Sexually or emotionally or both, he feels threatened enough that he has to be there whenever you're with her. This is not a good sign. Maybe he'll get over it, but if he doesn't then he is basically saying "she's mine and you're not going to have any part of her".

Well I am not sure if MrsVan said this anywhere and I am getting tired of flipping back and forth and searching to be honest, but it has come out that this was a joke from my GF. Sort of ill timed on her part and she swears that when she sent the message she indicated it was a joke. She may very well have, at the time I was in the middle of talking to MrsVan about this subject and I wasn't really paying attention to messages. So the husband is very fine with what is going on. He chuckled when my GF told him about my feelings for her and her feelings towards me. She thought he wasn't taking her seriously, but he explained that he knew she was serious and he wasn't surprised. He understood how this could happen and he is fine.

On that note, I have to diverge before my last item and just say something that I have said to MrsVan a couple of times and that I have said just recently to my GF. This couple absolutely amazes me, both of them. They have taken so much shit from us (mostly me) and they have stuck with us. Not only have they stuck with us, but they have just taking these things in stride and continued to work with us on "fixing" them. For a couple that is only, as CplnuSwing puts it "LIfestyle-friendly", they sure have their house in order and their communication skills with each other and with us are just flat out amazing. I think many people search all their lives to find friends like this, and most never succeed, inside the lifestyle or out. I know that I myself have given out the same advice that most have given me over the past year or so regarding this couple. Run, run away as fast as you can, this is going to turn out bad, there is no way this is going to work. You can not take friends and make them swingers. I myself have said this montra over and over to people here as well. If we had done that, we would have lost some truly amazing people in our lives and I know that I speak for MrsVan as well when I say that our lives truly are that much better for having them in it. They are as much family to us now as they are friends. I know that this case is very unusual and I still would not recommend this path for most people. Most couples do not have the level of communication and committment that is required to make this work. I am not even sure yet that we do, but we are trying. It is a work in progress and I feel very confident that it is going to work out.

Originally Posted by lovinher

To Mrs. Van....Between all lines and regardless of what others have said. Mr. Van needs to decide who is more important. If it is you, and I hope it is because we have been on the board long enough to have a feeling of who or what type of people you two are. Those that are saying to Mr. Van to go with his feelings. To try to work it out so he can have his cake and eat it too, are not considering your feelings. You obviously do not want that. This must be heartbreaking for you and is bullshit. In this case it has to be one or the other and I don't feel Mr.Van in realizing that or is oblivious to what this is doing to you.

To Mr.Van. So who is more important? Your wife or your hormone driven other? What you are doing is not fair to the woman you married. Don't you realize how you must be making her feel? Of course you do! But in a way I hope you don't because if you do, then your being extremely selfish and not much of a man to man up and drop the other. Sure it will be hard . But you are only thin]king of yourself. Plain and simple, period. Put the shoe on the other foot. If it would hurt you extremely then you know what to do. I have no respect for someone who would put the woman they are supposedly still in love with through this. Regardless of your excuses. Hormones are powerful. True love is fore ever-remember that. So cave in to the hormones running through your brain and you will end up miserable. If what you say is true about your feelings for wife, there is only one thing to do-drop the other and stay a mile away regardless of the friendship situation. Get some balls and do the right thing.

Oh where to begin my friend. I have really enjoyed your posts over the years and while I could not disagree more with your comments here, I want you to know that I still very much appreciate your input. I said it earlier in this thread, when a person comes to a public forum to discuss a problem, they are going to get every kind of feedback, some of which they are going to strongly disagree with. I started to respond to you directly yesterday and after writing my post I set the laptop aside so that I could calm down and relax before actually posting it. I am so very glad that I did. Just my typing out of my response was cleansing.

As to your specific comments though, firstly I am quite sure that my balls are still attached right where the Gods put them. I am pretty sure that the shear act of telling my wife openly and honestly that I do love my GF and risking losing everything that I have worked for this past decade plus, indicates that my balls are just fine thank you.

Who is more important? I am guessing this question really must have been a rhetorical question and as such I won't bother answering this one. For if you really need this question answered then you have not been following along very well and I don't think answering it will further your knowledge. You say I am being selfish and I need to man up and drop my GF. I see that, I get that and if this was posted in a different forum, under a different title by a different man I might even go along with that comment. This was purposefully posted in the correct forum dealing with issues where someone loves more than one person. It can happen, you think it can't happen to you or your spouse? Keep your head in the sand then my friend, but don't bitch when the coyote take a huge chunk out of your ass because you didn't see him coming. I think most people would agree that nobody in their right mind would choose to allow this to happen on purpose. You have not held you wife while she has cried herself to sleep over this. You have not had your wife lay on your chest sobbing and know that you are the cause of all that pain. Being a man is much more than just doing what is easy. Being a man is doing things that you know are going to be tough. I have absolutely no problems with you disagreeing with my issues and even with you stating your opinions, but as I said earlier, if you put yourself on a public forum you too must expect that someone will say stuff you dislike.

With that said I do still truly appreciate your input here. Everyone has been so very honest and helpful. While we may not get the answers we need from this thread, and I never expected to anyways, just posting and reading has been extremely helpful to both MrsVan and myself. I can only hope that my GF will actually join and respond and share some of her insight, but just having her read it would also be fine. Sorry this one got so long, I will try to keep up better in the future.

-Van