We were swingers. Now she's progressed without me.

[2TexasTornados]

My wife and I have been married for 14 years and began our journey into swinging over 2 years ago. We have a model marriage, rock solid and exceptionally sexually charged. It all started when our best (vanilla) friends asked my wife to video them having sex, and she was shocked. We discussed it, and I really liked the idea. It didn't happen, but we began disussing our private fantasies. My ultimate fantasy is to watch her having sex with another man. That desire took us down the road to swinging. We found our first swinger couple online, and became full swap. Only rule: We play together; same room sex. On that bases, we're able to signal each other if anything negative comes up.

Fast forward to present day. We've had a mutual (married) friend that we've known since college (15 years). This summer my wife confided in the guy of the other couple that we were swingers. He thought the idea was tantalizing, and immediately started introducing the idea to his wife. Within two months all the ground work had been laid and I ended up giving his wife a massage that ended up nude and I had sex with her (completely sanctioned by our spouses). We were alone in the living room late at night- the other two had left us alone because I was working on my assignment. Upon notifying my wife and the other husband, they went directly to the upstairs bedroom and caught up. This stretched our same room swinging rule, but since we were introducing vanilla friends to the wide world of recreational sex it was acceptable.

By chance we had already planned a mutual vacation in Las Vegas for the following month. In all the hot discussions with our friends with new benefits we ended up negotiating an overnight wife swap. All three of them wanted it, and I decided since it was Vegas, lets try it all. One night became all 4 nights almost right away. I didn't want that, didn't like it, but I reserved judgement. I wasn't going to be the Debbie Downer of the group in Las Vegas. So we went ahead as planned. 4 nights of separate closed door sex. I couldn't believe I had gotten myself into.

Now my wife and her (boy)friend of 15 years have all but established our group as a polyamorous. They only play behind that goddammed closed door, and I hate it. I have the same priveledge with his wife, but for me I only consider myself a NSA swinger. Not a closed polyamorous "I love you" relationship. My wife is in love with this guy, we see them on 6 week intervals (240 miles separate us) and I don't know what to do. It's so far along now that I'll destroy the friendship if I pull the All-Stop lever now. I don't see the other-wife that I've been assigned as being in the same attraction class as my wife. He, on the other hand is ga-ga over my wife, and they have talked up a bond that rivals my own marriage. She's admitted to me that they're saying their I-Love-You's behind that damn closed door.

I've imposed time limits on them now, 1.5 hours is it behind that door. My wife respects that and follows it, but I know she (they) want more and likely resent it. I'm iron clad on that, and have shut out all discussions about more time -> all night swaps again. If I had forseen any of this when we started swinging 2 years ago I would have squashed it. But now I'm here, and I'm conflicted. I can suppress my (is it jitters? jealousy?), but it keeps poping up and I become moody over the worst case sceario of those two running off and starting a bakery together. I don't want to stop what's possibly a good thing, but my primary fantasy has been permanently removed: watching my wife enjoy sex with another man.

I've deleted all our swingers profiles on the lifestyle sites in protest. I might just passively remove myself from the group. I'm so afraid of damaging my awesome marriage over this. Tell me, what would you do?

[VegasLee]

I would look in the mirror and know that I would be the one to blame for what has happened to this relationship and what is happening within it.

YOU did something you where not comfortable with in Vegas. Four nights of closed door playing. Right there you should have been honest with your spouse and the other couple. This was not something you wanted to do. Because you wanted to be the "good guy" you let it happen and now it has gotten out of control and you are having real problems with it.

You state you have this rock hard relationship with our wife, then prove it to her and yourself. Be honest with her and put a stop to all of this before it ends your relationship with your wife and friends.

Talk to her then get all four of you together and talk with them. There does not have to be a fight or argument. You have to man up and tell them the truth. You are not comfortable with the way things are, you are not happy with it and there needs to be some adjustments made or you don't want to swing anymore.

You already know what you have to do, I can see it in your writing but you are to concerned about being a bad guy rather then using your head and working this out as an adult.

Your not playing high school games here, your playing with your relationship and your lifestyle.

Be honest with yourself, your wife and your friends. There is no reason to lose any of it if you act like an adult and do it right.

Hope you make the right choices here for all concerned.

Good luck.

[turnuptheheat]

Speak long and hard with your wife.
If she is unwilling to meet you at an acceptable level, it is no longer swinging (is it now?) and is instead exceptionally destructive to you and your relationship.
I suspect the other wife feels some level of concern or threat as well, but it is your wife who you need to speak to.
If there is no meeting of your hearts and minds, the friendship being in danger is the least of your problems....

[Dynamar]

Plain and simple, talk to your wife. Calmly and rationally, and not in anger... although I'm hearing a lot of anger in your post, and perhaps rightly so. But nobody can take advantage of you without your permission.

You and your wife need to get your thoughts and feelings out in the open ASAP. However, ultimatums, hard lines and time limits probably aren't the answer.

Good luck.

[WonderWhat]

Quick response:

1) Initiating vanilla friends into the lifestyle is always tricky. Initiating them by swapping with them, as opposed to holding their hands through the process of swapping with someone else, is even more problematic. You and your wife are swingers, your friends are not. Had you played with them after they got a chance to soak up the lifestyle ethos, maybe things would have gone differently.

2) You should have let your feelings known as soon as they happened.

3) I haven't the slightest idea of how to defuse the situation as it stands without damaging the marriage, the friendship, or possibly both.

The only recommendation I have is to have a heart-to-heart with your wife, and do not come out angry or whiny. No preconditions, ultimatums or passive-aggressiveness; just a statement of facts and a willingness to work through this together.

[SW_PA_Couple]

I have no advice to lend regarding your situation but I am curious to know what an NSA swinger might be.

~Michael

[couplers]

My question is how is she treating you otherwise? If your relationship is good on all other planes, then let her have her fun. None of us can help who we find attractive or even fall in love with. But I suspect this is swinger "puppy love," it will play out, and she will love you all the more for it. Tell her you are happy she has found this fascination and that you are there for her. She will ultimately be more grateful to you that you have given her all this within the security of a dependable marriage.

[ncmd_couple]

Michael,

"NSA Swinger" is "No Strings Attached Swinger."

S

[ncmd_couple]

2texastornados,

VegasLee's advice is spot on. You need to sit down and talk to your wife, openly and honestly. Then the two of you need to sit down with the other couple and talk to them as well. Good luck!

S

[LagniappeDC]

From what we can tell, this path is unacceptable for you. Swinging, in our book, is a couples experience. If one of us isn't happy or comfortable then we fix it -- even if that means dialing back the activities.

You don't want to be a "debbie downer" but in the long term it doesn't seem as if this can continue. Your marriage will ultimately suffer and that is the worst of all possible worlds.

Sometimes, especially with new partners, you can get so caught up in the excitement that you don't realize that you've gone to far (especially if your partner is not speaking up and you are technically following all the rules).

You need to speak up. Fast.

[The Fuse]

We have been in a situation where I and the guy half of another couple fell in love, while my husband and the other guy's wife did not. The situation was workable for a while, but ultimately imploded. I know better now and would not just "go with it" if something like that happened again. That is to say, I would at least fight against making the mistake before I made it .

Seriously, Vegas Lee gave you the best advice. You have to deal with this situation before it gets any further out of hand. Acknowledge that you should have been the party pooper while you were on vacation. At least the couple involved live several hours away, which will help, because you can't see them very often. Our friends lived a little over an hour away, and he actually talked about taking a job that would put them closer to us. I'm really glad that didn't happen. At the time I was taken aback by his even suggesting it and I told him as much.

The way I see it, preventing a future situation is partly up to me and partly up to my husband. If I see someone starting to get a little moony over me, and I don't see the potential for a real four-way poly relationship, I have to say something to warn them that if it progressed it would probably not end well. That has happened a couple of times since, and my saying something could well have helped prevent some pain. I am no femme fatale, but I do have a tendency to bond with men I like if they are open to it.

When I feel myself getting deeper with someone now, and I don't see that four-way potential, I pull back. I like to think I've learned, though I could still make the mistake for sure.

And if my husband started to see me getting too far with someone, he should put limits on what we can do. For instance, after that last one ended he said he didn't want to spend entire nights in a swapped situation anymore. It's his option to bend that rule. I think it's a wise rule, even though my tendency is to want to sleep all night with someone if I like them a lot.

I know it will be difficult to have the talks you need to have and do what you need to do. It sounds like your wife has a real strong case of puppy love, or even real love. Since I'm presuming she knows your primary fantasy is to see her with other men, her wanting to have closed-door sex is even more evidence that she is in that state where it's hard to see that anything else matters. It's easy to underestimate the power of those feelings and the things they make people do, who are otherwise considerate of their spouses.

She could be feeling more or less "addicted" to this new love. When you put an end to her fix, as you must, you will then be dealing with the addiction and not as much with your wife, until she gets over it. I can attest to how upsetting it can be to give something like that up. But she should know her priorities. It may take a while, and cost you the friendship. But that is better than the possible alternatives.

Good luck to you. Please take a deep breath and just do what you know you need to. I hope we hear from you again as things progress.

[2TexasTornados]

Hi, all. I'm the Mrs. of 2TexasTornados.

We HAVE talked about all this, and at length. We've always been talking to each other along the way about all of this. Nothing my husband said in his post is new to me.

When we started swinging, I was a reluctant player. I'm not at ALL a prude and have always been a firecracker in our own bed, but I don't enjoy group sex, I don't enjoy being watched. I don't enjoy girl-on-girl. However, I don't DISLIKE it enough to overrule his love for it. SO, I did all of those things. I was happy to see him so happy, so it was a small price to pay.

The husband of our current couple (I'll call him P) has been my best friend for 18 years. I met him in college, before I met my husband. Several times back then and up to the present, he and I have expressed that we have always had a connection that was more than friends. But neither of us wanted to "mess it up" with romance back when it was an option. Plus, back in college, I was already dating my husband by the time P had broken up with his girlfriend. So he and I were never completely "single" at the same time.

I've told my husband this, and I'll say it here. The kind of love I have for P, I've had since 1993. I don't feel any more bonded to him now than I have all these years. It was just mostly unspoken. P told me that he had always kept HIS feelings for me well hidden because he was respecting my marriage and our friendship by never even attempting to cross that line. It's not puppy love, nor any sort of dopamine inspired addiction.

We are not going to run off together. We can love our spouses and each other, and have been with no issues and no life changes. I'm still superwife, if I do say so myself. My husband and I still have all the sex we've always had. I still cook, clean, mow the lawn, take care of the kids. We still have couple time, cuddle time, nothing about our marriage has suffered in my opinion, EXCEPT that my husband insists that I've killed his dream of seeing me with other men, by honoring P's preference that he not play in a group setting.

A while back my husband said he'd like to move from standard swinging to polyamory, because we got along SO well with P and his wife. This was after I had repeatedly "warned" (more like advised) him that P and I had always had a very close bond, and I was sure that adding sex to that bond would put it on another level quickly. The very first night I told P that we had been swinging, he told me that he had secretly been in love with me for years. I immediately told my husband this the first night. My husband didn't want to back off, even after knowing that. He just wanted to get started on the playing pronto.

Now that HE has decided polyamory isn't working out for him, he wants to stop. I just want it to be clear (because there are ALWAYS two sides to every story), that I didn't run off on some wild hair toward polyamory without him.

Ever since we started swinging, it has been him making the requests/rules, and me following. This is the VERY first request I've ever made (that P and I are allowed some alone time) and I've tried very hard to pick up my stuff and keep following my husband around on his changing ideas and requirements.

My husband can insist we stop, and I guess as of this morning, that's the plan. But P and I will still be bonded. I think my husband's greater sadness is that I'm no longer interested in "NSA" swinging now that I found poly is my better fit.

The thing is, from the start, my husband has pushed me into things he thinks is a great idea (like playing with P even when I told him it was going to head toward expressed love), then when things don't pan out like he fantasized, he wants to be able to pull my plug and undo my emotions.

I can go on indefinitely loving both men. I have for years. I do have some level of discontent that my husband can pull the rug out from under me, when I've asked for so little along the way and have gone out of my way to fulfill his fantasy needs. P is not comfortable with "on display" sex, and I think 1.5 hours every month or so isn't too much to ask. But my husband does, and of course if he makes me choose, I choose what he wants, over what P wants. But P will never have same room sex, so it will just stop.

Thanks for listening to my side.

[The Fuse]

Well there were certainly some things in your side of the story that your husband didn't share, like your warnings and the fact that you were already bonded with P, and that it was your husband who first expressed interest in poly.

Thanks for sharing. I hope you and your husband can reach some sort of compromise that works for both of you.

[TheLorax]

Relationships issues are always complicated. Sex is the easy part, emotional issues usually create the deeper issues.

Having read both sides (and I come from the background of polyamorous relationships most of my adult life), the only thing I have to say is that I think you two need to see a poly friendly counselor together. It may not resolve any issues, but at least it forces you both to try to explain your perspectives to an independent unbiased observer. I don't think what you all have is unresolvable, and I think compromise and accord can be reached, but I do think that professional guidance could really help here.

I wish you two well, from the descriptions on both sides it sounds like you have a great relationship in spite of the recent issues.

[bbarnsworth]

There's always two sides to every issue. When I first started reading this thread, where I thought it was headed was here. Those of you who've read it before know of what I speak.

I've seen several threads here over time where one member of a couple willingly walks into swinging, finds it is not going exactly how they'd like, and the resulting outcome is some hurt feelings, broken communication, etc. The right responses to situations like this do not include shutting down communication, making demands, giving ultimatums, or anything else that could be construed as divisive.

Swinging or poly relationships both depend upon emotional and psychological honesty between all partners. Without that, it will be an unhealthy situation at best.

To the couple that started this thread; I don't think you're going to be a train wreck. I see hurt feelings, dashed hopes and expectations, and more. But, I don't see an unhappy marriage in what little has been written so far.

For the husband's part, yes he marched into this and encouraged your emotional and physical bonding with P. When the reality became something other than what he wanted, he asked for the plug to be pulled. This isn't inherently wrong. Any spouse, in any swinging situation, has a right to change their minds, say no, back up, pull the plug, re-evaluate, etc. and do so without fear of castigation by the other spouse.

With my wife and I, that is an inviolable rule. For us, if one of us does that we leave the situation without question or drama. We then discuss it outside of the situation, focusing on us. That's what we're in swinging for afterall; us. That rule has never been exercised because we've both always been happy with any swinging activities going on.

Both of you have the right to say no to something, to stop something. Neither of you has the right to demand yes and allow something to happen.

My wife and I in exploring swinging recognize there will be times that we're trying something new, and the outcome may be that we decide it wasn't all that great, and we'd prefer not to do it again. On some things, you can't know if you will like it unless you try it. I think I want my wife to have a regular lover on the side, and see him fairly frequently, playing solo, so long as no emotional ties develop beyond friendship. My wife thinks it is possible she would like that. Neither of us will know unless we decide to try (I'm ready to try, she's not quite ready yet). As we try, if either of us does not like it, either of us can pull the plug and should do so sooner rather than later.

Your husband was willing to trying swapping spouses for a night. When he realized he didn't like it, he should have said so after night 1, and not kept on taking it for the home team. Likewise, if you didn't like having sex with other men in front of your husband, you shouldn't keep doing it to take one for the home team. Doing these things just generates animosity. "I hate doing this, but I'll put up with it because it makes him/her happy" is not a recipe for happiness. It's a recipe for disaster.

There is currently a disconnect between what your husband wants and what you want.

Your husband wants to have same room sex with you, wants to watch you have sex with other people. I can certainly understand that. It's highly erotic for me to watch my wife having sex with other men. I suspect your husband may not ultimately be comfortable with a poly situation. In his post, it appears he's very concerned about the emotional bond you have with P, and the exchange of "I love you"'s. There is nothing wrong with him wanting to watch you have sex with other men. There is nothing wrong with him not feeling comfortable sharing your heart with other men.

You want to have private sex with other men, men with whom you share an emotional bond. You don't want to have sex in front of other people, and you don't want to have sex with people whom you do not love. I can readily understand that as well. Being alone in the room with a sex partner allows you to fully focus on that partner, and not have to be concerned about your spouse for the moment. Also, having an emotional bond with a sex partner just "feels" right to many people, and it certainly adds to sexual pleasure in many cases. There is nothing wrong with either of those things.

I think it is a right and good thing that you stop playing with this couple, at least for now. The two of you need to be on the same page, and need to be certain what you are doing is what both of you want. That's not the case right now. In swinging or in poly, when that disconnect happens stepping back as far as needed to get to a point of agreement is necessary. Once you're back in agreement, you can work on how to move forward again

I have a friend with whom I am very close. She and I were engaged a long time ago, but broke up. We remained close, and are still close to this day. It is a very tight, deep, emotional bond that we share. It not longer has romantic or physical aspects to it, but there is still a very strong bond. I do love her, and I love her very much.

In various discussions my wife has asked if I would want to restart a physical relationship with her. My answer, after some thinking, is no and will remain no. Even assuming she were a swinger (she's not, I'm very certain of that), the idea of resuming a physical relationship with her is dangerous at best.

Your situation with P is probably similar in some ways. Despite your warnings, I don't think you fully understood the gravity of the emotional situation that was going to evolve. It's not new relationship euphoria. All the more reason it is dangerous. NRE could be waved off; after half a year or so of regular sex with this guy, your relationship with him would probably stabilize. But, starting out with a strong emotional bond and adding sex to it; that's lighting the fuse on a nuclear bomb and being amazed when it goes BOOM.

In any case, your husband doesn't share the same bond with P's wife that you do with P. It's a lopsided quad poly relationship. Such things can work, but it's dicey.

If ever you go back down the road of a quad poly relationship, I think it would be a better idea to do so with a new, to both of you, couple.

In the meantime, it's a good thing that the brakes have been put on. I'm sorry your losing the physical relationship with P. I'm sure the sex was wonderful, and the relationship felt fantastic. Nevertheless, your husband is more important, and you've certainly shown that in your post. Bravo!