We were swingers. Now she's progressed without me.

[JustAskJulie]

To Mrs2TT - are YOU willing to swing with others besides Mr & Mrs P? If so are you willing to do so in front of your husband?

I have to agree with Sunswept that perhaps there is room here for comprimise, and you can BOTH get what you want.

How does Mrs P feel towards Mr 2TT - perhaps she's not really as into him either. Perhaps there is a possibility to allow Mrs 2TT and Mr P to continue to see each other occasionally and enjoy a polyamorous relationship together. While both couples (or at least the 2TT's) also continue swinging with other couples they both agree on in a way that they can both agree on?

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

For many years into our marriage, this continued. He always enjoyed knowing I had close friendships with men, including my ex-boyfriend. He allowed and even encouraged hours-long conversations to which he was not privy. He thought it was great that I had them, and that they had me. Not once in all these years did I ever cheat on him, nor even contemplate it. He trusted me, and I never messed up. I loved him for trusting me.

Sometimes absolute trust giving results in absolute trust getting

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

When he first introduced swinging, I had knee jerk reactions from the old days - jealousy. I thought I had been so careful to avoid sharing this one thing - sex - and now he was going to hand it out. But the more we talked and the more I thought, I realized it was silly. I had my husband, he had me... I was already sharing intimate parts of myself emotionally with others (male), so why not "let" him share himself physically? I shed it all. I genuinely walked away from ALL jealousy and never felt a twinge since. Emotional, physical... I LOVE to think he's sharing with someone else, whomever that may be. I think it's great if he can find the kind of deep bonds that I have with others.

There's another thread on here about a woman saying "Aren't I enough for you?" I didn't respond in that thread, but what you said above applies. We already share ourselves with people around us constantly, every day. We share time, emotions, thoughts, chats, meals, all sorts of things. "Aren't I enough for you?" would smack of trying to be enough for ALL things in a person's life. Nobody can do that. It's hardly surprising that there are many people who find it applies to sex as well, and romantic love too for some.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

But now he says things like,"Don't you CARE? What if I got this close with P's wife? Wouldn't that alarm you?"

It probably doesn't alarm you. But, this area of emotional non-monogamy is uncharted territory for most people. For me, I don't mind my wife having sex with other people. As much as she likes, if she likes. I do mind if she starts falling in love with someone else. I don't consider that jealousy. I just prefer us to focus on our love at this point in our lives, and not our romantic love for other people. If I were to venture into an area where she is falling in love with other people, it would take a great deal of adjustment.

All of us can think we'll like something. From that, we might encourage it, help our spouses pursue it, and happily do so. Then when reality sets in, we find that it's not what we thought it was going to be like. This happens sometimes with couples getting into swinging, where the enthusiastic husband finds out that watching their wives have sex with another man isn't what they'd thought it was going to be like, and invert on their desire to be swingers.

It isn't WRONG to behave in this way. We can't absolutely know how we'll feel about something until we're actually doing it.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

and NOW, he wants me to find it in myself to be jealous if I imagine myself in his place, of having a loving relationship with a playmate. I can't manufacture such a thing.

Nor should you feel obligated to do so. If it's not in you, it's not in you. I see a person who is asking for some understanding of how he is feeling, some legitimization of his emotions in the current scenario. You can do that for him, even if you don't feel the same way he does about it.

It can be very difficult to get into the same mindset as someone else when it comes to emotions. We just don't feel like they feel. That doesn't mean we can't be understanding and supportive of them. Their emotions aren't wrong or right, they just are. He has a right to his emotions and so do you.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

Also, he was the one who said recently that he was feeling like standard swinging wasn't what he was after, that he'd prefer an exclusive "poly-type" relationship (his words). Once we got there, and he realized his half of the quad wasn't the same brand of connection that my half is, he wants to revert back to standard swinging.

I think he's voicing he's not happy with the current scenario. I noted in an earlier post that if you venture into polyamory again, you should do so with a new couple, and not this couple. Emotions don't have to be equally balanced all the way around a quad-poly. In fact, it'd be a shock if they were. But, each person in the quad has to feel like they want to be in it, else it falls apart. Your husband doesn't want to be in this quad. That much is apparent. Maybe if you met up with a couple where both of you fell in love with the opposites in the other couple you'd both feel a lot better.

Swinging is a way to test this out to some degree; are both of you equally having fun? Consistently? Ok, move up a step; see the same couple repeatedly. Still going ok? Ok, let the emotions start to develop, spend nights together, go on trips together. Still going ok? Alright, let's try swapping for a week at time. Still going ok? Alright, let's try moving in together on a trial basis. Etc. You get the picture. Your husband might want to proceed more slowly.

In the current scenario, for you it was engage warp drives and suddenly you were having mad, passionate, loving sex with this other man. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, so long as everyone around the poly-quad is happy with that. But, you left your husband in the dust. He probably feels like he got run over by a bus

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

To be honest, I feel like a tug boat tied to his ship that keeps suddenly changing course, and I'm getting whiplash from the turns. I've always tried to take care of him and his emotional needs. I respect every "rule" and have imposed none on him. After the Vegas trip, he told me it was all over with P and his wife, and told me I would only be allowed to hold hands and nothing else. I was upset in the moment, and so chose not to discuss it at the time.

A VERY mature response. Sometimes people fail to understand that sometimes the best thing to do is nothing until a later moment.

Your husband is upset. It's not surprising there's turmoil right now. This will calm down in time, and once you're all back on the same page again and walking forward together, this problem will evaporate.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

As for P's wife - it's not that I have no concern for her feelings, it's just that she's not concerned. She easily and quickly shed all the trappings of monogamy and has openly accepted the concept of open marriage - right now my husband is her only playmate, but she knows she can entertain others if they come along, and she's fine with P doing the same.

That doesn't mean it's balanced for your husband, or balanced enough for him to feel comfortable. You're the love of his life. He deeply, ardently loves and adores you. Suddenly he's finding his bed empty of you, you gone for long periods, and he's left with a woman he's not in love with at all like you are in love with P. That can be pretty unnerving, even to the most non-jealous of people.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

Anyway, that's the fill in for the "fast forward to present day" in my husband's first post. He has "offered" to get his fix (of watching/same room) by going back to our other playmates in the meantime, and then when we get together with the main couple, he'll just let us all have alone time like we have been. But I wonder if it's going to make him "hate" it any less, just to know he's getting some payoff elsewhere...

A work in progress, you could say!

If ever your relationship with him stops being a work in progress, your relationship is over. Good relationships are always a work in progress. Bad ones stop working.

Please understand in all of this I'm not saying you are wrong and he is right or the opposite. I'm just offering potential viewpoints. Both of you have a lot of work to do. Having insight from other viewpoints can help that. I for one am VERY glad you're posting all of this here. I think you're doing your relationship a great service by baring this here, and seeking input. Bravo!

[gatorvol64]

I just got at chance to check in on things. I actually think this is a good thread with room for growth by Mr. TT, Mrs. TT and even by others just thinking about this situation.

Mrs. TT, it may seem like I am addressing your more but that's because I have been somewhat in your husband's shoes and our experiences are what we draw from.

Although you warned Mr. TT about what you felt would happen, I don't feel he believed you. He was too caught up in wanting to play with the couple himself. Turns out you were right in giving the warning. (It's good to know oneself that well.) You say he has always been comfortable and not jealous of your friendships with other men. That's good but try to understand that this is somewhat different. Knowing your SO loves someone else, sharing them emotionally can be more difficult that sharing them sexually. (Most here would agree with that and avoid the possibility.) However, it seems here it was unavoidable.

I understand Mr. TT that you brought up the idea of poly. (I wish you had posted again since your wife has.) Let me ask you why that was? What were you missing from swinging that you would do that? Or what did you think a poly relationship was?

Mr. TT, do you have any feelings for P's wife? Any at all? What are they? If so, are you upset that your relationship isn't as advanced as your wife and P's? If they took a few steps back and let you catch up would that help? I don't mean catch up as in having the same kind of relationship with Mrs. P. Because, frankly, that may never happen. And it doesn't have to. All of you just have to be happy with what is. And even if you do develop as deep a relationship with her and you do form a quad, all the dyad relationships will never be at the exact place. You'll have times of moving close and away just like you and your wife do in your mono relationship.

Now, what I mean by catching up is you catching up with the mindset of being poly. In case you don't know, I am part of a quad. We started this when my husband and the wife of the other couple fell in love almost immediately. Long story short is during the course of a year to two years, each of the four of us had times we were the one going at the slowest pace. I didn't fall in love with the other husband nearly as quick. I was the first to move at a slow pace though I constantly challenged myself to grow. I was too busy dealing with how I felt for Gator to actually love someone else that I didn't have time to fall in love and couldn't have handled that emotionally either. I liked Tech and enjoyed sex with him. Love for him did eventually sneak up on me.

What is it that bothers you so much about your wife and P? And I'm not saying at all that you are wrong. Is it that she fell in love? Is it that she fell in love so quickly? Are you afraid she'll leave you for him? (I've had people ask me this about swinging and being in a poly relationship. I tell them being monogamous didn't guarantee Gator would always stay with me.) If you had a chance to get used to things more slowly would that help? If that happened, would you want to and could you work on what might be a potential relationship with Mrs. P?

Mrs. TT, can you see how the suddenness of this may be what is causing Mr. TT to have such a problem with this? Can you slow things down for him? I can tell you that it feels lonely getting left in the dust and your spouse not looking back to check on you...lonely and scary. I know he brought this up and you warned him what would happen, but even if he believed that, he seems to have not been prepared for the reality of the situation. From you posts, I think you'd be willing to slow things down.

And don't forget his fantasy. It's hard for him to give that up. Gator also likes seeing me with another man and that is the biggest fantasy we set out to live through swinging. It's rare that we have group sex any more. Our time together is rather limited and we try to get as much alone time in with our respective loves as we can. However, MFM with both the men I love fulfill this for him and, though they aren't happening right now because the opportunity hasn't really been there, he knows that it is a possibility and that I am willing. I've always liked threesomes and loving both the men involved only adds to the experience. Is this something you and P would be willing to do with Mr. TT? And don't forget Mrs. P here. Try any threesome you all may like.

Also, polyamorous relationships are not any one configuration. They are what we make them. What we are all comfortable with. Could be that if both Mr. TT and Mrs. P are ok with it, you and P could have a relationship and, if it wasn't working between Mr. TT and Mrs. P, they could seek out relationships with others. You do not all four absolutely have to form a quad.

I have to strongly encourage you to take the advice that many have already given you. You need to talk. First you need to talk with your husband about what you both may be willing to compromise on. What speed you both need to go. All of the things addressed in this thread. Let the other couple know what you will be discussing and give them the chance ask them to do the same between them. Then, once you both are on the same page, you need to sit down with P and Mrs. P. Discuss what each marriage has determined they can handle and what they are willing to work on handling. See if there can be a meeting of ideas in there somewhere.

Good Luck!
Vol

[Edison Carter]

Ahhh. When the warmth of love becomes the chill of doubt.

[2TexasTornados]

Mr. 2TT here. I'm very impressed with the time and effort this community is investing in our relationship. I am not angry, and am careful to not be perceived as such. I would characterize my disposition as disappointed.

Originally Posted by gatorvol64

Knowing your SO loves someone else, sharing them emotionally can be more difficult that sharing them sexually. (Most here would agree with that and avoid the possibility.) However, it seems here it was unavoidable.

When I opened our marriage to swinging, I had every confidence that Mrs. 2TT would never attach to a casual sex partner. I had every confidence that I had her emotional love exclusively, and that our love was well protected.

I have to agree that Mrs. 2TT is indeed a SUPERWIFE, as she has said herself. She makes my life easy. She handles kids and household and our business with no demands from me. I will never know another woman like her.

Originally Posted by gatorvol64

I understand Mr. TT that you brought up the idea of poly. (I wish you had posted again since your wife has.) Let me ask you why that was? What were you missing from swinging that you would do that? Or what did you think a poly relationship was?

Good question. I felt like constantly trolling the internet for new people for sex was dangerous, and it felt slutty. Meeting new strangers and trusting them to be D&D free would eventually lend itself to a disastrous mistake. I wanted a close, secure couple that we could trust, see regularly and look forward to weekend parties with them. A poly relationship embodied that for me. We would be equally involved with some yet unknown couple that would add fantasy to our lives. Our emotional love, after all was secure and not available for distribution.

Originally Posted by gatorvol64

Mr. TT, do you have any feelings for P's wife? Any at all? What are they? If so, are you upset that your relationship isn't as advanced as your wife and P's? If they took a few steps back and let you catch up would that help? I don't mean catch up as in having the same kind of relationship with Mrs. P. Because, frankly, that may never happen. And it doesn't have to. All of you just have to be happy with what is.

Our friendship with this couple has always been driven by Mrs 2TT friendship with Mr P. Mrs. P was always there, but really just part of the scenery. She and I never spent time together outside of the group, and I never had a sexual attraction to her. You might say she was part of the scenery. This summer I was challenged to seduce her as part of the game of introducing this vanilla couple to our world of recreational sex. I succeeded easily. I understand now that she has an affinity for me that is strong, and she chats with me daily. We've developed a great friendship that includes flirting and the expectation of sex. For me it's simple swinging. I don't love her, and would stop if asked at any time. I don't want more than what it is now.

Originally Posted by gatorvol64

What is it that bothers you so much about your wife and P? And I'm not saying at all that you are wrong. Is it that she fell in love? Is it that she fell in love so quickly? Are you afraid she'll leave you for him?

My wife and Mr. P have established a marriage-quality relationship. He's inside our secure fortress of emotional love. I'm now sharing my wife's emotions with another man. Mr. P has always been a good friend, but now I see him as a competitor. He's identified my wife as his soul mate, and would leave Mrs. P for my wife if given 1/2 the chance. So now the only thing that keeps my marriage to Mrs. 2TT secure is her devotion to me. But my entire security perimeter has been breached, and I have these two lovers-in-waiting moving about the cabin freely. Sometimes I think Mr. P used his wife as a Trojan horse to gain unrestricted access to my wife.

As a side note- Mr & Mrs P have had a rocky marriage in the past, and he's a lawyer making a quarter million a year. Neither of which help my case. If Mrs 2TT dedication to me wavered, I'd be instantly ruined. In every category.

Originally Posted by gatorvol64

If you had a chance to get used to things more slowly would that help? If that happened, would you want to and could you work on what might be a potential relationship with Mrs. P?

One of the things that went wrong was our vacation in Vegas. We had just established the sexual grounds 2 weeks earlier. Mrs. 2TT and I had always been same room swingers, but Mr. P successfully negotiated a closed door separate room overnight love-a-thon. And then made it ALL 4 NIGHTS! That right there pushed me too hard, and left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Make that terrible. I went off on the 3rd day with Mrs. 2TT and to her credit she handled it with remarkable maturity. At the time I pulled the all-stop lever, but softened later when the rum wore off and reluctantly allowed them a closed door session with a 1.5 hour limit. I was afraid of damaging her commitment to me, and in doing so would lose the whole woman. I'm still in danger.

Originally Posted by gatorvol64

And don't forget his fantasy. It's hard for him to give that up. Gator also likes seeing me with another man and that is the biggest fantasy we set out to live through swinging. It's rare that we have group sex any more.

The original fantasy is over. She's offered to "whore herself out" to satisfy my fantasy. Anyone would agree that's a terrible idea. There aren't any good solutions at this point. I'll never be allowed any involvement with her and Mr. P. And I'm not going to pressure her to whore herself out, so my fantasy has been deleted to make room for her new husband. If I stop this Mrs. P will be hurt, Mr. P will be resentful, and Mrs. 2TT never be the same. That friendship would be over, my marriage damaged, and I will be the bad guy. If it goes on ahead Mrs. P will continue to be happy, Mr. P and Mrs 2TT will be free to continue chipping away at my marriage and I'll be left with a self-defeating worry that consumes my happy-go-lucky demeanor.

Originally Posted by gatorvol64

I have to strongly encourage you to take the advice that many have already given you. You need to talk. First you need to talk with your husband about what you both may be willing to compromise on.

Excellent advice. We've talked quite a bit lately. So much so that she calls me the one-topic-wonder now. It usually ends in one of us crying. and I take the blame for all of this. I started the swinging, and I encouraged inviting our vanilla friends even after having been warned that Mr. P (but she really meant herself) wouldn't be able to manage the attraction.

I think I'll become a motivational poster for having defacing the most beautiful thing I've ever had. I've lead a charmed life, and this is the only time I've ever wanted an undo button. I'm confident we'll survive this, I just wish I knew how.

[gatorvol64]

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

I am not angry, and am careful to not be perceived as such. I would characterize my disposition as disappointed.

Maybe not angry but hurt. It shows in your words. And that is understandable. You do need to work through it though. We are all entitled to our feelings and none are really wrong...it is what we do with them...how we handle them that is important. And we each are responsible for this ourselves.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

When I opened our marriage to swinging, I had every confidence that Mrs. 2TT would never attach to a casual sex partner. I had every confidence that I had her emotional love exclusively, and that our love was well protected.

Well, I can certainly understand this. I'll not go into my history in great detail in this thread but, if you are interested, I've posted and blogged about much of it here. I understand this because I felt the same way when Gator fell in love with Kitten. However difficult it was to deal with and work through, we have come out the other side stronger for it. We are not the same people but its normal to change as the years go by. But, I'll clearly state here that poly is NOT for everyone any more than swinging is for everyone.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

Good question. I felt like constantly trolling the internet for new people for sex was dangerous, and it felt slutty. Meeting new strangers and trusting them to be D&D free would eventually lend itself to a disastrous mistake. I wanted a close, secure couple that we could trust, see regularly and look forward to weekend parties with them. A poly relationship embodied that for me. Our emotional love, after all was secure and not available for distribution.

Well, that's the exact risks you take with swinging. If you weren't willing to take them any longer, you should have ended it there.

So, you wanted a couple to see regularly. Did you not think that feelings of some type would develop? Even if just good friends out of a couple you were to meet. Instead of meeting a new couple, you both chose to initiate vanilla friends into the lifestyle. And rather good friends at that. Why did it not occur to you that already having such feelings for them as you would have developed over the years wouldn't have been intensified when sex was introduced into the equation?

If you mentioned poly at all in regards to seeking this couple out, and didn't explicitly discuss with Mrs.TT that you didn't want love to enter the picture, it could be said you were a bit misleading. Particularly since she warned you that it would likely happen. Whether with Mr. P or with Mrs. TT. It was brought to your attention that it was a distinct possibility. At that point you should have told her you didn't want that and that should have nixed playing with this couple.

I do not think you understand what a poly relationship is. It is open, honest non-monogamy with the full consent of everyone involved that involves LOVE and can involve sex.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

Our friendship with this couple has always been driven by Mrs 2TT friendship with Mr P. Mrs. P was always there, but really just part of the scenery. She and I never spent time together outside of the group, and I never had a sexual attraction to her. You might say she was part of the scenery. This summer I was challenged to seduce her as part of the game of introducing this vanilla couple to our world of recreational sex. I succeeded easily. I understand now that she has an affinity for me that is strong, and she chats with me daily. We've developed a great friendship that includes flirting and the expectation of sex. For me it's simple swinging. I don't love her, and would stop if asked at any time. I don't want more than what it is now.

Then you've always know Mrs. TT and Mr. P were close. Once again I have to say you should not have entertained the idea of swinging with this couple.

Scenery? She was the scenery? No sexual attraction to her ever? Who the hell challenged you to seduce her? Really, what would possess you to even accept that challenge? You are a grown man and can say no. How do you think that this attitude has been fair to Mrs. P at all? And you are still flirting with her? Knowing that you want this to end?

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

We would be equally involved with some yet unknown couple that would add fantasy to our lives.

I'm sorry to say that I feel this is the kicker for you. That you are not "equally" involved.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

My wife and Mr. P have established a marriage-quality relationship. He's inside our secure fortress of emotional love. I'm now sharing my wife's emotions with another man.

Well, yes you are. Now, let me ask you this. Is your marriage suffering in any way due to this? Does she treat you any worse than she did before?

Mr. P has always been a good friend, but now I see him as a competitor. He's identified my wife as his soul mate, and would leave Mrs. P for my wife if given 1/2 the chance.

You do not have to see him as a competitor. You could see him as a partner in making your wife happy. And what control do you or Mrs. TT have over Mr. P's feelings? None. You can decide whether or not you let his feelings control you. I speak to you from experience. In the beginning, Kitten would have taken Gator away from me in a heartbeat.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

So now the only thing that keeps my marriage to Mrs. 2TT secure is her devotion to me. But my entire security perimeter has been breached...

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

If Mrs 2TT dedication to me wavered, I'd be instantly ruined. In every category.

This was the case before she and he started this relationship. Really, all you had was her word then that she would stay with you. You have her word now as well. You either take the risk of trusting her or you don't.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

One of the things that went wrong was our vacation in Vegas. We had just established the sexual grounds 2 weeks earlier. Mrs. 2TT and I had always been same room swingers, but Mr. P successfully negotiated a closed door separate room overnight love-a-thon. And then made it ALL 4 NIGHTS! That right there pushed me too hard, and left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Make that terrible. I went off on the 3rd day with Mrs. 2TT and to her credit she handled it with remarkable maturity. At the time I pulled the all-stop lever, but softened later when the rum wore off and reluctantly allowed them a closed door session with a 1.5 hour limit. I was afraid of damaging her commitment to me, and in doing so would lose the whole woman. I'm still in danger.

Here you are wrong. What went wrong in Vegas is that you didn't communicate your feelings on the subject the way you should have. I speak from experience here as well. You should never let yourself be pushed into anything. I was a doormat for a while because I was afraid of losing Gator. Until I realized what I just told you above. And you cannot live a life always repressing your feelings. That in itself will ruin your marriage with Mrs. TT more than her relationship with Mr. P. You have to be honest about them with yourself and with your wife.


The rest of your post seems to be more of your self destructing thoughts fueled by your pain and resentment. Stop it.

You may be talking with Mrs. TT but are you both listening to what the other is saying? Or are you too busy trying to make sure she gets where you are coming from? You both need to listen as well as talk.

I know that I may have come across harsh here. I'm sorry if you feel that is the case. Please do not forget when you read this and think about it, that I have been speaking to you from experience for the most part.

As an afterthought, I really should explain that I am not trying to convince you that poly is the way to go. I am not trying to convert anyone.

[AskMeOk]

I would not use the term "progressed" as a euphemism for "no longer communicating with each other."

Go back to square one and re-communicate that this is not meeting your needs.

[Sunswept]

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

One of the things that went wrong was our vacation in Vegas. We had just established the sexual grounds 2 weeks earlier. Mrs. 2TT and I had always been same room swingers, but Mr. P successfully negotiated a closed door separate room overnight love-a-thon. And then made it ALL 4 NIGHTS! That right there pushed me too hard, and left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Make that terrible. I went off on the 3rd day with Mrs. 2TT and to her credit she handled it with remarkable maturity. At the time I pulled the all-stop lever, but softened later when the rum wore off and reluctantly allowed them a closed door session with a 1.5 hour limit. I was afraid of damaging her commitment to me, and in doing so would lose the whole woman. I'm still in danger.

Originally Posted by gatorvol64

Here you are wrong. What went wrong in Vegas is that you didn't communicate your feelings on the subject the way you should have. I speak from experience here as well. You should never let yourself be pushed into anything. I was a doormat for a while because I was afraid of losing Gator. Until I realized what I just told you above. And you cannot live a life always repressing your feelings. That in itself will ruin your marriage with Mrs. TT more than her relationship with Mr. P. You have to be honest about them with yourself and with your wife.

I agree with gatorvol64 totally.

OK, my current thinking is that as long as Mr 2TT feels as threatened as he does, no compromise is possible because Mr 2TT's fears are overwhealming his perspective. Also, Mr 2TT please, please, please re-read your last post. I hope you can see the pattern of how you constantly 1) refuse to "own" your own feelings -and 2) you subtily push the responsibility for the consequences of your not "owning" your own feelings onto others. The paragraph that you wrote that gatorvol64 quoted above is a perfect example of that. I do not mean to sound harsh, but this is what I am seeing. I am hoping you can also see this too now that it has been pointed out?

Another example is when you say you are not angry! You are angry! Own it! That you are probably more angry at yourself for getting your relationship into this fix than anything else is one thing, but then projecting that anger and the fears and doubts that creates onto others is really making things a lot more confusing for you! If Mrs 2TT says she can forego the poly relationship with Mr P, thrust her that she can! You "own" your feelings...let Mrs 2TT "own" her own feelings! Will she experience a sense of loss? Maybe, but let her "own" that for herself! Don't try to take that away from her and keep things stuck! Letting her do that will let you "own" your own sense of loss that playtime is over... for now!

As for what to do to survive all this: Read what VegasLee already posted until you really understand what he is saying.

Mr 2TT, you have to stop both swinging and any poly adventures because right now your fears are clouding your perceptions. Your desires to play overcame your own intentions to restrict things to swinging and your own self imposed rules, so you can't swing. Your lack of understanding of what poly actually is and your talent for putting yourself and others into false double binds means that right now you can't do poly either. You want to pull the stop lever, yet you say you cannot! False double bind! You are sending Mrs 2TT mixed messages.

Mrs 2TT, I am hoping you can see what is happening here, and I am hoping that you can put your intentions to preserve your relationship ahead of your desire to fulfill your long standing feelings with Mr P, you have said you can do that and I believe you. I hope you can also see that although it might not be fair, you may have to be the one to pull the stop lever and keep it pulled if Mr 2TT waffles and can't get congruent with what he really wants to have happen, and until Mr 2TT is capable of congruently expressing and acting on his feelings in real time. Mr 2TT is feeling far to threatened to be making good choices or seeing things clearly, and hey that is OK, it happens. Once Mr 2TT's fears subside, maybe you two can have a more constructive discussion about things, but right now I do not see how you can, Mr 2TT's fears are too severe for that to happen right now.

No one is "right" and no one is "wrong", it is what it is. What needs to happen is for you two is to take your relationship back to a point where the sex and love is about and between you two alone. For now anyway.

[ncmd_couple]

Mr. 2TT,

Sigh, Mr. P is a lawyer who you feel can ruin your whole life. You have said that he and Mrs. P have had a rocky life together, and you fear that he is targeting Mrs. 2TT, and that you are screwed. Yet, you continue to flirt with Mrs. P and seduced her?

The thing that brought me to a poly frame of mind is that I can care for, and love, more than one woman. That doesn't mean that I have to, but I should be able to do so.

It sounds to me like you have allowed drama from Mr. and Mrs. P's life to infect your and Mrs. 2TTs relationship. And quite frankly, you're facilitating that? You aren't sexually attracted to Mrs. P, but you moved forward anyway?

Buddy, you need to take your soul out and look at it and decide what you really want to happen here. Over the last few days I have had my wife's ex-husband here visiting. They have an emotional bond of being married previously and having a daughter, and hopefully grandchildren together. I accept that with open arms. Because I love my wife and he is a nice guy.

Bury your fears or address them honestly with you wife. Then the two or you have to do the same with Mr. and Mrs. P. Because as much as you feel threatened, Mrs. P is the one who is totally getting screwed and doesn't know it!

S

[couplers]

QUOTE: "My wife and Mr. P have established a marriage-quality relationship. He's inside our secure fortress of emotional love. I'm now sharing my wife's emotions with another man. Mr. P has always been a good friend, but now I see him as a competitor. He's identified my wife as his soul mate..."

You are not sharing your wife's emotions with another man, they are separate emotions for you which are entirely much stronger as demonstrated repeatedly by her actions. She did all the stuff you wanted: group sex, girl-on-girl, etc. Do you know how rare of a chance you have to give her this gift? - "Honey I love you madly, spend the weekend with Mr. P so I can tell you how much I love you when you get back. I'll mow the lawn." Maybe there is a chance Mr. P would leave his wife for yours, but there is NO chance that yours would leave you.

Mr. ncmd couple put it well about loving his wife so much that he lets her define and maintain a relationship, whatever it is, with her ex-husband.

[lustylearning]

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

My wife and Mr. P have established a marriage-quality relationship. He's inside our secure fortress of emotional love. I'm now sharing my wife's emotions with another man. Mr. P has always been a good friend, but now I see him as a competitor. He's identified my wife as his soul mate, and would leave Mrs. P for my wife if given 1/2 the chance.

If this really is true, you guys probably shouldn't be playing with the couple at all, because he IS a competitor. His wife should be his primary concern. If she is not, that leaves yours, and him with nothing to lose. Mrs. 2T may be devoted, but this is begging, borrowing, and stealing trouble.

[SheLovesTheSun]

I guess this is a risk that we all take when we get into swinging. That being said, I have to agree with everyone who has said to have an open, honest, and calm discussion with your wife.

Best of luck to you.

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

Good question. I felt like constantly trolling the internet for new people for sex was dangerous, and it felt slutty. Meeting new strangers and trusting them to be D&D free would eventually lend itself to a disastrous mistake. I wanted a close, secure couple that we could trust, see regularly and look forward to weekend parties with them. A poly relationship embodied that for me. We would be equally involved with some yet unknown couple that would add fantasy to our lives. Our emotional love, after all was secure and not available for distribution.

I think you made a mistake here, and communication became unclear from this conclusion. What is polyamory to you? I think you need to clarify that between yourself and your wife, and be very, very clear with each other.

If you are each to have a regular sex partner, are you free to fall in love with that person or will you remain emotionally monogamous?

You can maintain a long term sexual relationship with someone without falling in love with them. The two are not necessarily tied to each other. I think your wife wants to be able to fall in love with someone, and you do not. I think what you thought polyamory is is not what your wife thinks of polyamory.

Polyamory is NOT having a regular sex partner. Polyamory doesn't even necessarily involve sex.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

Mrs. P was always there, but really just part of the scenery...and I never had a sexual attraction to her.

Then agreeing to seduce her was taking one for the home team. This shouldn't have happened, most especially if you were trying to help this couple into the lifestyle (which is apparently the case).

It's good that you've since developed a friendship that includes sex, but it could have easily turned into drama.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

My wife and Mr. P have established a marriage-quality relationship. He's inside our secure fortress of emotional love. I'm now sharing my wife's emotions with another man. Mr. P has always been a good friend, but now I see him as a competitor. He's identified my wife as his soul mate, and would leave Mrs. P for my wife if given 1/2 the chance. So now the only thing that keeps my marriage to Mrs. 2TT secure is her devotion to me. But my entire security perimeter has been breached, and I have these two lovers-in-waiting moving about the cabin freely.

* 1000^1000.

Then this relationship with Mr. P ends. Now. Not tomorrow, not after the next time.... NOW.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

Sometimes I think Mr. P used his wife as a Trojan horse to gain unrestricted access to my wife.

There's enough bad things going on here to not need to ascribe ill intent to other actions where you do have have certainty.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

Mr. P successfully negotiated a closed door separate room overnight love-a-thon. And then made it ALL 4 NIGHTS! That right there pushed me too hard, and left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

In that situation, and in any future swinging situation, have the courage to say NO and stick to it. No means no. It's a fundamental principle in swinging. Either you're onboard, or you're not. Nobody, least of all a potential swing partner of your wife's, should ever attempt to convince you to do something. You should have skidded this thing to a halt right then and there. The onus of that responsibility is on YOU. Putting strain on your wife because of your incorrect decision is unfair to her. You allowed it to happen. What your action must be now is to not back down from NO. Don't blame your wife. Blame yourself. But, take corrective action to prevent the situation from being worse because of your past mistake. You don't have to keep making the same mistake.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

and reluctantly allowed them a closed door session with a 1.5 hour limit. I was afraid of damaging her commitment to me, and in doing so would lose the whole woman. I'm still in danger.

Another bad decision. You don't get yourself to a happy place away from her being in love and having sex with this person by continuing to agree to them having sex together. That's like saying "Hey gosh, I really don't like these gallons of acid being poured on me. Can we please knock it down to a cup of acid? Why, thank you!"

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

The original fantasy is over. She's offered to "whore herself out" to satisfy my fantasy. Anyone would agree that's a terrible idea.

Yes, it is.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

There aren't any good solutions at this point.

Yes, there are.

Look, swinging in the grand scheme of a marriage is nothing. So is introducing another couple into yours as a quad poly arrangement. Your first duty and responsibility is to your marriage to Mrs. 2TT. Anything else is so far in the background it's not even worth talking about what 'place' it is. It has no place at the table. Period. Any secondary relationships don't have the right to destroy your marriage. They don't have a right to be present and get attention when your own marriage is suffering from it.

I was in a poly triad for a short time many years ago. I was the 2nd guy, the non-primary. The wife of the couple and I were still very much in love, but she ended it because her marriage was becoming strained. It had nothing to do with us being in a poly triad. But, the triad was distracting them from their own marriage. They needed to focus on their marriage. It was a very equitable and happy ending to the triad. I'm still very much friends with the woman in question, and I know the other man bears no ill will towards me. We handled it maturely, and safely with regards to their marriage. It was a good ending.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

If I stop this Mrs. P will be hurt,

If you don't stop it she will be hurt too. Not stopping it doesn't prevent hurt. And so what if she is hurt? I don't mean to be callous, but her problems are nothing to your concern for your own marriage. Nothing.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

Mr. P will be resentful,

Again, so what? You owe nothing to him. Your first and only responsibility in this scenario is to your own marriage.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

and Mrs. 2TT never be the same.

She's not the same now. We all change, grow and adapt over time. You're not going to get your wife back to the way she was before this began no matter what happens. That corner's already been turned. You can't change it now. What you can do is avoid additional damage.

STOP pouring acid over yourself.
TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for your poor decisions.
START making good decisions.
FOCUS on your marriage.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

That friendship would be over, my marriage damaged, and I will be the bad guy. If it goes on ahead Mrs. P will continue to be happy, Mr. P and Mrs 2TT will be free to continue chipping away at my marriage and I'll be left with a self-defeating worry that consumes my happy-go-lucky demeanor.

And you will allow the train wreck to get worse and worse and worse with no happy end in sight. Can you not see this? This has to end. NOW.

Originally Posted by 2TexasTornados

I think I'll become a motivational poster for having defacing the most beautiful thing I've ever had. I've lead a charmed life, and this is the only time I've ever wanted an undo button. I'm confident we'll survive this, I just wish I knew how.

That UNDO button starts with ending the relationship with this other couple.

Look, if my wife and I had been regularly swinging with another couple, and everything was hunky dory, and then that couple said "We're sorry. But, we need to step back from swinging and focus on our relationship." we would utterly respect that.

Mrs. 2TT, if you really are as devoted to your husband as your writing here conveys, you need to drop the relationship with Mr. P. Immediately. Maybe you can renew the friendship (and only friendship) at some point in the future. But, I'd send an e-mail to Mr. P and inform him that the sexual and emotional relationship has to end. Make it clear you're not finding fault with him, but that he needs to be out of your sexual and emotional life. As far as friendship is concerned, maybe in the future, but for now you need to break contact.

Mrs. 2TT if you apply pressure to Mr. 2TT to continue this relationship with Mr. P, you might as well stick a fork in your marriage. Make your choice. Either Mr. P or your husband. Not making the choice and trying to play both sides of the fence will guarantee pain and anguish for all involved.

In short, to both of you...



If either of you attempts to continue this relationship with Mr. and Mrs. P, you're actively destroying your own marriage.

Get over it, and move on.

[mixtupcpl]

I see this whole thing as a very specific and somewhat tragic occurance. This doesn't fit our definition of "poly" either. Its not even remotely a "poly quad". It is two old flames using swinging as a gateway to traveling a path they had thought lost forever.

Mrs 2TT is exploring an unrequited love. The first post acknowledges that Mr P was a love that pre-dates her marriage that circumstance never allowed because at that time she was following vanilla rules.

We *completely* agree with bbarnsworth. Mrs Mix and I, now that we understand the terms, actually venture down the poly path. We both get emotionally involved with play partners, play separately, and even explore long term *secondary* relationships.

We do not have "old loves" from *before* we knew each other that we pine for. If we did, we would *not* turn those sexual. You guys now have and yes, it was not a good idea. The only way to fix that mistake is to end it. There is no "fair" or "unfair" in this. If you both want the marriage to survive, that is the only way really.

I dont agree that the way to go is to openly accept the situation and just try to all be happy. No one was on equal footing here. Mr P really seems to be a guy who regretted missing the boat on Mrs 2TT. He got a very unusual and GOLDEN opportunity when this topic of swinging was brought up. I dont expect that Mr P's bond to Mrs. P (which doesnt even seem to have come up) mattered much to him in this. I also expect that if Mrs. 2TT were to say "hey Mr P, screw this... lets run away together", he would do it. That doesnt make for a good play partner or a "poly" situation.

Mrs. 2TT, I can completely understand where this could seem like an amazing opportunity to have both the guy you married and the guy you've always wondered about having missed, but surely you can see that this can't work.

I think for this situation folks have to step outside of some of the usual assumptions and look at this really objectively. It VERY much looks like an essentially vanilla guy who is getting a chance to fix a mistake (never having gone for the girl he loves) I mean really... How quickly did this progress from "ok, lets try swinging!" to "get my wife out of here so I can spend an entire vacation alone with the gal Ive always loved"?

The fact that the feeling is very much mutual is incredibly dangerous.

Mrs. 2TT, a lot of power and responsibility has been placed in your hands really. We dont envy you as it cannot be easy.

[JustAskJulie]

The truth is that the only thing that ever holds any of us to our partner is our love and devotion. If that wavers (for any reason) splits happen. There was never more than that holding her to you. It's just that now you've opened a door for her to expand a relationship that was already there. YOU opened the door, he walked in. As you said, he'd leave his wife if YOUR wife gave him the impetus to do so, but she doesn't have that desire. She has stated clearly here and to you that she LOVES YOU and would give it all up FOR YOU. That should say enough.

I would not suggest that you ask her to choose at this point. She does love you, if you give her that ultimatum then no one wins. Accept her love, accept that she has CHOSEN YOU. There is no requirement for you to play with Mrs P, but I would suggest that you keep the lines of communication open in all 4 ways, and make sure that everyone is aware of what it going on and any change in status.