On the cusp...

[babycole]

Hi All!

I'd like to present a situation that maybe you guys would have some advice or words of wisdom on. My husband and I joined the wonderful, crazy world of swinging a little over 2 years ago. While we have had several playmates, one couple really stood out for us. They were more than just sex partners, they were people that we became real friends with. We got together as couples and even several occasions with our kids. They've been to our kids' birthday parties and vice versa. We stopped swinging with them when they started having some relationship problems towards the end of 2007, and haven't been sexual with them since. Now they have been seperated for two months and things aren't looking great for them. So here is where the issue I would like advice on comes into play....


While the wife of this couple and I have stayed friendly aquaintances, the guy of the other couple and I have become really, really great friends. From the start, we just clicked like two old friends who had known each other forever, and the sexual chemistry that we had was incredible. When we all first started chatting (we met them on a swinger's website) it was a daily thing for almost a month before our schedules would allow us to meet in person. Between the phone and the chats on the computer (which mostly happened between him and I) the friendship grew quickly. At the time, I didn't realize that this could possibly ever become more than the two of us just finding the perfect swinging partners. Anyhow, to make a long story short, after quite a while of the two of us being in big time denial that we were feeling anything other than sexual chemistry and great friendship, we realized that we both felt deeper than that for each other. After coming to that realization, the two of us have been very careful to keep our feelings for each other in check and to not cross any lines.


After I realized exactly what I was feeling, I gathered up the courage to tell my husband that I was having feelings for this guy (We had said back when we first started that if feelings ever developed then we would cut things off with the couple so I was soooo worried that I would have to cut contact). While his original reaction was hurt and anger, once he got over those first feelings, we had many, many, many discussions on what it would be like to bring someone else into our relationship. While we knew that it would not happen with this guy because he was married and his wife was no longer even comfortable with him having a sexual attraction to me or any other woman (a result of their rocky marriage, I'm sure, as her and I still stayed aquaintances), we still discussed how this would play out in our relationship between each other. We kinda left it as we would leave ourselves open to this, dealing with things as they would come up and make decisions based on how things played out and felt at the time.


Here's the problem now. Now that he and his wife are seperated, and may be making their way to a divorce, the possibility for him to play some other role in my life besides just a great friend is there. I know that the feelings we have for each other could quickly resurface. And I'm well aware of the fact that he could get back together with his wife and that this could not be a possibility. But part of me is excited about that possibility of being able to have him as a playmate again. However, now that we are faced with the very real possibility that someone else could become part of our life as something more than just a playmate, my husband is having to work through some big fears. He says that he cannot help but worry that this will affect our marriage in a bad way. He also is having some insecurites, like what if she likes him better than she likes me. I think some of this comes from him not having a complete understanding of how I could possibly love more than one person at a time in a romantic love kinda way. I've explained it all to him as best as I can, and I think he is understanding it all a bit more now. He is still open to all of the possibilities in this, but we have just decided to start with baby steps to it all. I was just curious if you guys had any advice for me on how to help him along in this process. Is there a really great way for me to exlain to him how loving more is a very real thing? Is there a way for me to help ease his worries about it all? I really hate him feeling insecure or jealous in anyway. I hate seeing him fret over this. Especially when I know that through this all, my love for him has not changed, lessened, or dissappeared, even though my love for this other man has grown. So any advice any of you may have that you have experienced that has worked for you would be appreciated!!

Much thanks in advance & love to you all for your responses!!!

[fun4t&c]

Well, there's one glaring option you haven't listed.... You know what it is, but I think you might be getting caught up in what YOU want and, like me, you tend to figure out how to make that work for your partner.

Hint: The option your hubby wants to hear is that you'll gladly step away from the friend if that's what needs to happen. If you're not even offering that as an option, no wonder your hubby has concerns.

You guys seem pretty close. I hope it all fits together nicely. If you guys can pull it off and have it be genuinely good for all 3 parties, you'll have accomplished something very rare. Best of luck, no matter which way you guys go.

[rpu3]

I was just curious if you guys had any advice for me on how to help him along in this process. Is there a really great way for me to exlain to him how loving more is a very real thing? Is there a way for me to help ease his worries about it all? I really hate him feeling insecure or jealous in anyway. I hate seeing him fret over this. Especially when I know that through this all, my love for him has not changed, lessened, or dissappeared, even though my love for this other man has grown. So any advice any of you may have that you have experienced that has worked for you would be appreciated!!

I'm not sure how you expect there to be some magic words or phrases in order to get your husband to accept your feelings and desires. Poly, friends with benefits, whatever isn't any different than swinging! Even the poly people on their message boards sing that same mantra of "go at the slowest person's pace". Yet, I get the feeling from your message that you are looking for other ways to push your husband along instead of moving as slowly as your husband wants or needs you to move. I'd have to wonder if your husband isn't digging in his heels because he feels you might be moving in a direction that doesn't have his best interests at heart.

He's told you his concerns. While I can appreciate talking, talking can be pushing. And there's no magic words to make your husband accept any faster. And there are no guarantees your husband will ever accept this at all.

Talking is fine and necessary, but talking in order to get your husband to accept this is not necessarily what your husband wants or needs.

[babycole]

Thanks for your responses and your good luck wishes! Not having the kind of poly, friends with benefits, etc. relationship with this guy is definitely an option! It's what has been so far. And I totally agree that it is especially important to move at the pace of the slowest person! And I'm not so much looking for advice on how to move hubby along or speed up the process of him deciding that this is in our best interest. I understand fully that he may never decide that taking it to that new level would be ok, and I am ok with that. What I am looking for is info on how to make him a little less insecure and more confident in our own relationship, which is a great one already! Maybe I am looking at this wrong? It just seems to me that his insecurities seem like either #1: That he's not as secure in our own relationship as he claims, or that #2: He hasn't fully grasped the possibility of more than one love? During our swinging experiences, I am always the one that tends to form the friendships, relationships, bonds, etc. while he could really care less about the people we play with. I guess saying that I am way more emotionally open than him would be appropriate. But, the part that bothers me more than the possibility that we may or may not have a poly situation blooming is that he possibly doesn't have the confidence in our relationship that I always thought we had. What are your thoughts?

[The Fuse]

It is very easy for many us to say that we would never find another relationship that would be a threat to the one we share with our spouse. Sometimes that is true, and sometimes when I have heard it said, I think it is just the "right" thing to say. I know you are very concerned about your husband and have no doubt that you are sincere.

It is also easy to say that our spouse wouldn't lose any of our love, affection, energy or time if we became involved with another person. However, practicalities are bitches. If you are out with your SO on Saturday night, or shopping with him on Sunday, then your husband is probably seeing less of you or at least seeing less of you without sharing your attention.

For you, I think it is important to take a really deep breath and ask yourself very seriously whether there is no possibility that your husband might start to feel like he is getting less of you, or worse, if he might start to wonder whether there is the faintest possibility of you slipping away. I say this as an experienced poly person -- one quad, and one close relationship with a married playmate, in which my husband played with the other wife but was not close with her. I haven't had the situation you're describing, where there is another (sort of) single guy. I am sure that would not work for Mr. Fuse, though it could and does work for others.

My thought is that if you can really, really say that your husband has nothing to worry about either in the day-to-day or the long term, then hopefully he will develop that confidence that you want him to have. But if what he sees is his wife getting very excited and falling in love, and doesn't have that absolute confidence, then I would not be surprised if his feelings are iffy at best.

Another thing is that when there is a single involved, and one spouse is "left out" for want of a better term, that spouse needs to have a sincere desire to see you reap all the emotional rewards that this other relationship can bring. Some people call that "compersion". If he is just okay with it, then when the stress of normal life intrudes, or if the two of you have a run-of-the-mill fight, he may feel worse at that time about your other relationship.

Mr. Fuse and I were involved in a quad, so there was a sort of equity involved in that. Both of us paid a lot of attention to the opposite sex members of the other couple, and the lady and I were in love too. So Mr. Fuse wasn't the only one gaining a close connection; I did too. In your case, unless your husband and the other guy are close and/or bisexual, your husband may not see this situation as a winning one for him. Also, we had no doubts about whether an unattached person would start to want too much.

I would love to see your husband post to this board and express his feelings in his own words. You have written about how he feels, which is good, but I am curious to know what he has said.

[bbarnsworth]

I'll echo what Mrs. Fuse has said above. Take it to heart. She's spot on. I was briefly in a poly triad, and everything she speaks of is true from my limited experience with that.

(Side note: Your thread is of interest to us because you had a similar rule to ours; cutting off cold turkey if romantic attachments develop.)

Originally Posted by babycole

Not having the kind of poly, friends with benefits, etc. relationship with this guy is definitely an option! It's what has been so far.

I would add here that the second guy ("Bob") should not be aware of or involved in the discussion you're having with your husband about engaging in a poly triad. It should be a team decision you and your husband both make. Keeping Bob up to date, involved, etc. will just create undue stress on everyone.

Originally Posted by babycole

What I am looking for is info on how to make him a little less insecure and more confident in our own relationship, which is a great one already! Maybe I am looking at this wrong? It just seems to me that his insecurities seem like either #1: That he's not as secure in our own relationship as he claims, or that #2: He hasn't fully grasped the possibility of more than one love?

A husband who is secure enough in a relationship to happily allow his wife to have sex with other men is hardly lacking in the security category! Security is based, in part, on an understanding of what will probably happen given certain constructs in a situation. Allow me to explain.

I'm happily confident and completely trusting that my wife will not continue a sex relationship with another man if she begins to have romantic feelings for him. If she doesn't develop such emotions, she can have sex with him as much as she wants, so long as I'm not left out or excluded if I want to be included. She can even love him if she feels that way, but love in a friends sense...not a romantic sense, and I'm happy to have her still have sex with him as much as she wants. I am very secure in this scenario because I know how my wife will respond to such situations. I have zero doubts about what she would do. She will tell me, and she will break it off. I have no concerns on that.

Now, if after having sex with a guy many times she tells me she's beginning to fall in love with him, I'd ask it to be cut off cold turkey. If she told me instead that she's having a hard time doing that, my security would vanish. I would not want her to play with anyone, much less the guy she's falling in love with, until I am assured of her ability to cut things off. If my wife did start to fall for someone, the sooner she cuts it off the better for her and me. If my wife instead said she's considering a poly triad relationship with this guy, that she loves me no less and wants me to consider the possibility I would feel a bit betrayed and insecure about what was happening and why. I would not want to be in that triad.

Flip it around, and it might be different. If instead my wife approached me about the possibility of being in a poly triad, and she was NOT currently having sex with someone or had any one guy in mind, I'd feel like it was a more upfront discussion that we could have without having a third person to consider in the mix. We could honestly discuss the possibility and then decide together. If we decided to have a poly triad, THEN I would feel confident moving forward to find the right third for us.

In your situation, the cart's in front of the horse. No wonder your husband is displaying signs of insecurity!

Originally Posted by babycole

But, the part that bothers me more than the possibility that we may or may not have a poly situation blooming is that he possibly doesn't have the confidence in our relationship that I always thought we had. What are your thoughts?

I think he has PLENTY of confidence in your relationship. But, you are serving him a plate he never expected to have to consider eating and then equating his negative response to insecurity. Not wanting this poly triad doesn't mean he's insecure or incapable of considering a poly relationship.

If you think you're ready and able to be in a poly triad, then great for you. That's wonderful! Really, it is! But, your best course of action is to back up, remove this second guy from consideration for the triad, tell your husband as much, and then start from square zero. Work together, step by step, towards an amicable decision that you both want with regards to being in a poly triad or quad even.

[fun4t&c]

The Fuse hit on a very ligitimate point.

Your hubby has made a life-long commitment to you. He earns and shares everything he has with only you. The single has made no such sacrifice or commitment.

That's unfair to the hubby.

[babycole]

Ok, first of all my apologies on not being able to figure out how to directly quote each of you guys on this reply.

Secondly, Thanks for all of your honest opinions! I am always glad to be able to get different points of views on situations. Doing that sorta helps you gain new perspectives on it that maybe you wouldn't have seen otherwise!

Mrs. Fuse:
I can appreciate your opinions coming from a situation where you guys have loved more than just your own spouse! And you may have hit on something in your posting. I haven't gave my husband 100% confidence that nothing would change between us if we brought this other guy into our relationship. I am not dissillusioned to think that it woudln't affect us in someway. I mean, even just logistically, if I'm with someone else without my husband there as well, then I'm not spending time with my husband. We had discussed this previously and were well aware that would occur. I think the key to that, like everything else we've experienced in the lifestyle would be communication, communication, and more communication. If I were doing something that left my husband feeling neglected, I would expect him to let me know so that I could change that. I would expect to be able to go to him the same way if the shoe was on the other foot. I am also not disillusioned to think that all of this could happen without a hitch. I know that it would take talking and work from all parts to establish something that was comfy for all. I know that if I were in my hubby's place, even though I am open to him having that kind of relationship with another woman, I know I would have my own issues and reservations from time to time as well!
And of course, I think this would all be easier to swallow if it was a quad thing rather than a single guy coming into the mix. My husband and this guy were friends, but when I expressed that I felt more for him than normally would be expected, my husband started to pull away. Right now where we are at with things is having my hubby get comfy with him again, while I continue to maintain a completely platonic friendship with him.

Barnsworth: I can see how this would definitely intrigue you since you too had the same "rule" as we did about feelings becoming involved. I have to tell you, that these feelings came as a rather complete surprise to me. I think part of this was due to inexperience on our part (this was the first couple we had fully swapped with), and being naive about how to be "friends" with swinging partners. I have since learned (as we still consider ourselves swingers) not to have so much one on one contact with the guys I am involved with. Apparently, I am a person who connects with people easily and it's easy for others to connect with me as well. So even the couples that we have soft swapped with in the begging, I have some sort of connection with. If they are going through hard times, I am feeling their pain. If they are having great times, I'm celebrating with them. I'm like that with anyone I meet. Anyhow, basically what happened here is that we (this new guy and I) were in complete denial of what was happening between us. We had just thought we had found the perfect swinging partners. It wasn't until months later, after we had stopped sleeping with each other that we realized that it was more than that. So now, I definitely take precautions to ensure that I don't get too close to the people I swing with. Live and learn I guess, right?

Also, I think you may be dead on about insecurity really being just a negative response to the situation! That makes me feel tons better!! I will definitely have him read all of this thread when he gets in, and maybe some of what you guys have posted he will relate to and this will help me understand his feelings on all of this a little better.

As far as how I feel for this other guy. I think things have been better understood by my husband once I described to him exactly how I feel for this guy, instead of just saying "I love him too". The best way I could describe this is I love him like a brother, but in a weird sense, since I of course have slept with him before. And I don't even know that my ideal kind of situation with this guy wouldn't just be a true "friends with benefits" kinda situation instead of a poly one. I really am not looking for another husband. And I do think that since that is how I feel, and I am not asking this guy to make a life-long commitment to me (that's what I have with my hubby, I'm not looking to replace that or gain another), I really feel like I have no place in asking of any kind of sacrifice or commitment to this potentially single guy.

What do yall think?

[JustAskJulie]

The one question that kept jumping out to me in your original post (and it may or may not have anything to do with the answers to your question)... is there any possibility that his feelings towards you may have in any way led to the rockiness of his marriage? Perhaps as he got closer to you, he started pulling away from his wife? While you had the courage to be open and honest with your husband about your feelings, maybe he didn't do the same.

Now, that said... When you choose to involve a third person in your relationship, do you not want them to have the same level of openness and honesty with you AND your husband that you already have with your husband?

On another note, along the lines of what The Fuse mentioned, there is NO way that you can guarantee to your husband that nothing will change if you involve another person in your life to this extent. Things will, in fact, change. It's up to you to decide to what degree things change. There are many changes within our lives that affect the amount of time/energy we give to our partners (having children, job changes, family responsibilities, hobbies, etc) and very often we don't stop to think about how these changes will affect our relationship. In this case, it is obvious that things will change and he's being honest that he's scared of how it may affect your relationship with him.

Whatever conclusion you and your husband come to on this, I would definately suggest that you do not make any steps to persue anything with this guy until after the divorce is final. In fact, I would cut off any communications with him until after that time - mainly due to the thoughts I expressed in the first paragraph here.

[IvoryTowers]

When Mr. Ivory and I first got involved in swinging, I told him "you can sleep with other people but you can't get emotionally involved." But I've reconsidered this (although he hasn't come close to being emotionally involved yet so this is theoretical) and the reason is well expressed by the rule "If you fall in love you have to cut the guy off cold turkey."

In other words "You've managed the rare feat of finding someone to love, who loves you. I want you to destroy this wonderful connection because I'm worried it might negatively impact me."

This is not to suggest that your husband doesn't have a right to his feelings! Or that this might not be just a crush or a passing fancy or something else that can be set aside. But speaking personally, I hope that my love for my husband is such that I can be happy for him if he finds love and not see it as a threat to our relationship, but an enrichment of it (assuming, of course, that he doesn't leave me!).

After all, I have friends, I have a career, and these things take me away from him (especially the latter). And I certainly those who have children understand that loving more than one person and balancing needs is possible and even desirable!

[babycole]

To respond to Julie, from what we have learned, their marriage has been rather rocky from the start. When we came into becoming swinging partners with them, we were not aware of this. By the time it became apparent to us (they were great at facades), we had already became friends with this couple. That was the point in time where we stopped any sexual activities with them, and just remained as friends. They seperated for a few months, got back together, and they are seperated again now. So, I'm not so sure that his feelings for me were the reason for the split. Especially since realizing these feelings for what they were, we have limited our contact with each other (which wasn't hard to do as they lived several hours away), and just remained on a friendly level. But who can say what goes on in someone elses mind for sure, right? And yes, before any moves will be made towards anything (if that's what my husband and I agree on), there will be have to be a definite splitting of the two, not just lets seperate and see how things turn out.

As far as Ivory's response, that is exactly how I feel. If my husband found someone who he could happily carry on a relationship with, and he and that other woman were respectful of our marriage and my feelings and were willing to communicate in all ways to make sure that things were going nicely, then I would be absolutely sooooo excited for them! And you are right, having 3 children ourselves, I can definitely say that I was able to love the 2nd & 3rd without sacrificing any of the love I feel for our first! And I feel the same way about the really close friends I have. I truly feel love for them, and the love I have for them does not threaten my marriage. I also have sex with other men through swinging with my husband. That does not threaten my marriage. Maybe this is too much logical thinking on my part, but if that is how that works, why can't I have a friend that I love and that I have sex with that doesn't threaten my marriage as well? That's just basically how I've looked at this...

[Chicup]

Let me put on my scientist hat.

MFM poly unlike FMF poly is rarely stable long term. I could give the long biological/psychological explanation I am wont to do at times here, but just trust me on this one. The male mind just isn't wired for that sort of thing. I'm sure in unusual circumstances it can work, and I have known it to work where the men are also bisexual, but thats about it.

My personal recommendation, is to drop it completely. The fact that your husband may be willing to try this for you, doesn't mean that is what he wants or will be happy with. Let the other man go find his own way and don't let your own desires jeopardize your marriage unless you are willing to risk your marriage for it.

[ncmd_couple]

Babycole,

Lots of good and thoughtful posts before me, so I won't repeat any of it. Severing your ties to this man is a good idea for many reasons. He is in an emotionally confusing position right now with the seperation from his wife. So you can not depend on him being emotionally honest with you. You also don't want to get sucked into the drama of the potential divorce. So, would be better to step away.

Having said that, because you are open to a poly relationship, if it is something that you and your husband enter into together, then the potential for success will go up.

S

[IvoryTowers]

Originally Posted by Chicup

Let me put on my scientist hat.

MFM poly unlike FMF poly is rarely stable long term. I could give the long biological/psychological explanation I am wont to do at times here, but just trust me on this one. The male mind just isn't wired for that sort of thing. I'm sure in unusual circumstances it can work, and I have known it to work where the men are also bisexual, but thats about it.

If you are going to put on your scientist hat, I'd like you to do it with citations of published studies from reputable sources. No, I won't "just trust" you "on this one."

Sorry, but as a feminist I've seen the old "the male mind just isn't wired for that sort of thing" bull used way too often. Men aren't wired for monogamy, for parenting, for commitment, for being sensitive to problems, for talking about feelings, for good grooming, for accepting women in the workplace, for peace, blah blah blah.

The differences between the male and female brain are dwarfed by the similarities and many 'absolute' differences have been demonstrated to be cultural in the end. For example, in Medieval Europe, it was manly to weep and faint because men had stronger emotions then women (naturally). Now we have science telling us testosterone makes it harder for men to cry. Mmmhmmm.

If you want to tell the OP that in your experience triads (MFM or any variety) are unstable, fine. But don't scare her with "science" without some documented proof.

[rpu3]

Let me put on my scientist hat.

MFM poly unlike FMF poly is rarely stable long term. I could give the long biological/psychological explanation I am wont to do at times here, but just trust me on this one. The male mind just isn't wired for that sort of thing. I'm sure in unusual circumstances it can work, and I have known it to work where the men are also bisexual, but thats about it.

Sorry, I'm not inclined to just "trust" you on this one either.

Being one in a marriage and an outside relationship, i.e., pretty much an MFM/V arrangement, and being a woman, I'd like to know why my arrangement is statistically less stable than if my spouse got himself a girlfriend resulting in a FMF arrangement. A "trust me" from Chicup doesn't exactly inspire confidence that your statement is biologically/scientifically/statistically valid, but it does annoy this particular woman.