On the cusp...

[avid]

Originally Posted by Chicup

Let me put on my scientist hat.

MFM poly unlike FMF poly is rarely stable long term. I could give the long biological/psychological explanation I am wont to do at times here, but just trust me on this one. The male mind just isn't wired for that sort of thing. I'm sure in unusual circumstances it can work, and I have known it to work where the men are also bisexual, but thats about it.

Sorry, Chicup, I've gotta chime in on this too. Just exactly how MUCH research exists on this topic? Not much, I'd warrant. I also struggle with your use of non-quantifiable terms like "rarely", "long term", "just isn't", and "unusual".

You know, of course, that our triad/blended family is well into it's 4th year. We're doing pretty good, I'd say. I wouldn't say we're all that "unusual" either, but then, that's a YMMV thing. Certainly we don't present "weird", but who knows what freaky things are under the surface?

Oh, and for the record, my guys are decidedly NOT bisexual! (They would want to make sure I emphasize that!)

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by IvoryTowers

If you are going to put on your scientist hat, I'd like you to do it with citations of published studies from reputable sources. No, I won't "just trust" you "on this one."

Echo, with all politeness.

Originally Posted by IvoryTowers

Sorry, but as a feminist I've seen the old "the male mind just isn't wired for that sort of thing" bull used way too often. Men aren't wired for monogamy, for parenting, for commitment, for being sensitive to problems, for talking about feelings, for good grooming, for accepting women in the workplace, for peace, blah blah blah.

It's irritating to me as well, regardless of the gender being associated with a particular stereotype. Dr. Laura the other morning was on the line with a 17 year old girl who was asking if it was ok to start dating. She basically told her that unless she was wanting to get married, the answer was "no" since all 17 year old boys want one thing and one thing only from girls; sex. She further tried to convince the caller by essentially saying 17 year old girls only want to do girly-girl stuff, and guys would have no interest in that.

I wanted to puke. Channel change.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by IvoryTowers

If you are going to put on your scientist hat, I'd like you to do it with citations of published studies from reputable sources. No, I won't "just trust" you "on this one."

Sorry, but as a feminist I've seen the old "the male mind just isn't wired for that sort of thing" bull used way too often. Men aren't wired for monogamy, for parenting, for commitment, for being sensitive to problems, for talking about feelings, for good grooming, for accepting women in the workplace, for peace, blah blah blah.

The differences between the male and female brain are dwarfed by the similarities and many 'absolute' differences have been demonstrated to be cultural in the end. For example, in Medieval Europe, it was manly to weep and faint because men had stronger emotions then women (naturally). Now we have science telling us testosterone makes it harder for men to cry. Mmmhmmm.

If you want to tell the OP that in your experience triads (MFM or any variety) are unstable, fine. But don't scare her with "science" without some documented proof.

Well start by reading 'The Red Queen' and then get back to me. I'd also recommend 'The Selfish Gene', though Dawkin's get rather cute as he always points out the genetic behavior and then tries to put humans above it (is shouldn't mean aught), which is a mistake. It speaks more of his politics than his science writing, and its a shame he can't separate the two.

And if you want to play the citation game...

For example, in Medieval Europe, it was manly to weep and faint because men had stronger emotions then women (naturally). Now we have science telling us testosterone makes it harder for men to cry. Mmmhmmm.



I'm sure you are aware of the entomology of 'hysterical' and regardless I'll take modern scientist over whatever Medieval anecdotes were. They had a lot of wrong ideas about life in general in those days but that didn't stop the natural laws from applying.

My first degree is in evolutionary biology and while I do agree that male and female brains are more alike then different, that does not trivialize the differences or make them unimportant.

[avid]

Chicup, how can you talk about things from an evolutionary biology point of view when we don't even have enough examples in western culture over ONE generation from which to gather data?

In as much as the internet allows like minded people to come together, I haven't come across even ONE triad who is living like we do. Not even ONE. So I don't think it's fair to use words like "usual", etc.

Besides which, The Red Queen is full of shit. Some guy, with some half-assed theory, decides a whole bunch of stuff, including the "fact" that homosexuals (presumably the male ones) are promiscuous, but lesbians aren't. Geez, you need a score card to keep track of which dykes are sleeping with whom with the ones I know!

He also has a whole bunch to say about women's views on monogamy, but I don't think I need to repeat them, because they're stoooopid.

I will grant, Chicup, that the kind of life I lead, the type of relationships I have, are probably more likely to be successful after reproduction has been completed. In our case, we're all done birthing babies, so we can move on to the other good stuff.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by avid

Chicup, how can you talk about things from an evolutionary biology point of view when we don't even have enough examples in western culture over ONE generation from which to gather data?

In as much as the internet allows like minded people to come together, I haven't come across even ONE triad who is living like we do. Not even ONE. So I don't think it's fair to use words like "usual", etc.

Besides which, The Red Queen is full of shit. Some guy, with some half-assed theory, decides a whole bunch of stuff, including the "fact" that homosexuals (presumably the male ones) are promiscuous, but lesbians aren't. Geez, you need a score card to keep track of which dykes are sleeping with whom with the ones I know!

He also has a whole bunch to say about women's views on monogamy, but I don't think I need to repeat them, because they're stoooopid.

I will grant, Chicup, that the kind of life I lead, the type of relationships I have, are probably more likely to be successful after reproduction has been completed. In our case, we're all done birthing babies, so we can move on to the other good stuff.

So your real issue with with Donald Symons who authored the paper that Ridley cited where most lesbians have fewer than 10 partners in their lifetime?

I'm also not sure whats so stupid about womens views on monogamy, I found it a very interesting chapter.

Care to elaborate?

[babycole]

Just an update, to maybe get this thread back on track????

After talking to my hubby more about this, he doesn't want me to completely write this guy off. We are still just gonna take this in baby steps. And it may just end up being that we can only be friends with this guy with no sexual interactions involved (which is just fine by me). His reasoning is because even though we are swingers who can seperate sex from feelings, he's worried that I won't be able to seperate it where this guy is concerned and that maybe that might not be a good thing. So for now, he wants to just become more involved in the friendship that I have with this guy and to kind of re-establish the friendship that he once had with this guy. Through our conversations, after having him read all the posts on here, I have come to realize that it's not an insecurity about our relationship, just a hesitancy on this situation. So, babysteps it is for us to see where it will take us. And in the meantime, I'll just be extra careful to not push anything, just to let it evolve as it may.

As far as Chicup's idea's on how the male mind is not wired for this kind of situation. And how it's unusual, and how several books have been written that support this theory. I have to say, I'm not so big on believing things just because they are written about. For instance, how many people in this world believe (and may have at one time taught or written on this subject) that monogamy is the only right way to live? However, many, many, many of us on this board would have to disagree with that. We have lived it and know that it can work when sex with other partners is involved in our relationships. I do believe that just because something isn't the norm in our less than normal world, doesn't mean that it's unusual or impossible. I mean, what is normal in our unusual world, right? Swinging? Poly? MFF Triads? MFM triads? MFMF quads? I mean, really, who's to say what's normal here? We are all unusual in a big way according to most of the rest of the world, right?

[ncmd_couple]

Babycole,

I'm glad that you and your hubby are on the same page. You two are walking a very fine line, so you might want to talk about the possibility that you or he cross over the line. Because that is a very good possibility.

S

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by babycole

As far as Chicup's idea's on how the male mind is not wired for this kind of situation. And how it's unusual, and how several books have been written that support this theory. I have to say, I'm not so big on believing things just because they are written about. For instance, how many people in this world believe (and may have at one time taught or written on this subject) that monogamy is the only right way to live? However, many, many, many of us on this board would have to disagree with that. We have lived it and know that it can work when sex with other partners is involved in our relationships. I do believe that just because something isn't the norm in our less than normal world, doesn't mean that it's unusual or impossible. I mean, what is normal in our unusual world, right? Swinging? Poly? MFF Triads? MFM triads? MFMF quads? I mean, really, who's to say what's normal here? We are all unusual in a big way according to most of the rest of the world, right?

My advice is offered free here.

No one has to take it or agree with it. In the range of human personalities there can be extreme's and off shoots that work in ways the general population can not. Being I do not know your personalities, and I have only the female side of the story I can only give advice based on what generally would work. Over all, at your age, and with your story, I can only recommend not perusing anything beyond a platonic relationship with the other man. You don't need to heed this advice, and maybe, not knowing everyone in detail, I'd be wrong in my assessment. Maybe not. Its up to you to decide, I just try to help as best I can.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by babycole

Just an update, to maybe get this thread back on track????

After talking to my hubby more about this, he doesn't want me to completely write this guy off. We are still just gonna take this in baby steps. And it may just end up being that we can only be friends with this guy with no sexual interactions involved (which is just fine by me). His reasoning is because even though we are swingers who can seperate sex from feelings, he's worried that I won't be able to seperate it where this guy is concerned and that maybe that might not be a good thing. So for now, he wants to just become more involved in the friendship that I have with this guy and to kind of re-establish the friendship that he once had with this guy. Through our conversations, after having him read all the posts on here, I have come to realize that it's not an insecurity about our relationship, just a hesitancy on this situation. So, babysteps it is for us to see where it will take us. And in the meantime, I'll just be extra careful to not push anything, just to let it evolve as it may.

Thanks for the update. I have to wonder.... when it comes to poly the whole point is that you aren't seperating sex from love... the idea that you can love more than one person. It sounds to me like maybe you guys are still on different pages. You want to be open to love others beyond your husband, he just wants you to love him.

[ahs1961]

I would like to reply to on the cusp about we have handled the situation of a MFMM. AS you can see we are an older couple and have many years of trust built into our relationship. We can trust each other with our feelings and relationships with others. We have been friends with two younger single gentlemen for several years and Mrs AHS has a close working and a warm relationship with them. To spark our sexual relationship I asked her if she would like to have a deeper relationship with them and she jumped at the chance. I took both gentlemen to lunch and approached them with the idea of pleasuring Mrs. AHS. Both said they would be extremely honored to make love to such an elegant lady. Over the period of time both gentlemen and my wife have fallen in love with each other and they have treated her as a surrogate wife by dating and pleasuring her. When these feelings emerged I gave both permission to have, hold, love and pleasure her. They both have unlimited access to our home and now take her on business and pleasure trips. When I am gone on business she more than likely will live with one or both of them for that period of time. She does spend a lot of time with them but seeing Mrs. AHS pleasured as she is and seeing her sexually liberated has deepened our relationship and love for each other. With her being their surrogate wife I have to expect to share time with them and be without her at times. Watching and seeing her pleasured gives me an indescribable inner feeling. She expresses her appreciation every day for her sexual liberation and for me allowing her to love the two gentlemen without restrictions. If you can grow to trust each other with other people and allow each other unfettered access to other people all will be well. I would have it no other way because Mrs. AHS is completely a new and revitalized partner to me also.