Okay, here goes!

[lustylearning]

My husband and I are, by rule, just plain swingers. We enjoy meeting new people, going to the club, and having fun I preface my post with this because we have friends on this board, and although they may learn something new about us, I do not wish them to think we are different than what we show or that we have any agenda to seek something in addition to what we already have.

In fact, I'm posting because the situation that has developed with one couple is something that we did not seek, and I find myself at somewhat of a loss as to how to handle some of the challenges that I've personally faced in the situation.

Well over a year ago now, we met a couple at the club we attend. We'd seen their profile. They looked interesting We didn't get to know them the first night, but there was something about them, even in that night, that made us wish to get to know them better. It's funny how a touch on the arm and a look in the eye or the tone of a chuckle can speak volumes. Anyway, we did manage to get together with this couple a few times over the course of the following, oh, I don't know, 3-5 months. And oddly, I can't say the experiences were easy if success is measured by the ease of sexual contact or conversational flow. Nevertheless, the interactions were sincere, and we realized these two were, very simply, extraordinarily likeable and down to earth. More months passed. The male half of the other couple and I would occasionally IM one another. We learned more about them and their somewhat different approach to the lifestyle. We recognized there were differences between us but knew, when our upcoming vacation was getting closer, that this was a couple we could probably really enjoy "just hanging with," so we invited them to join us. And they came for a week - us and them - their kids and ours. And although the physical set up of the vacation spot could have allowed for a sex fest, we, for the most part, just hung out, played video games, and enjoyed the local attractions. The only extraordinary thing that happened during that week, for me at least, was that we were fully ourselves with this couple. I think in basic swinging, we tend to bring our "A game" to the club or to the evening out. In the course of a week though, personality and foibles become apparent, and the cool thing was, they still wanted to see us, like we wanted to see them.

I know this is getting long, so I'll try to shorten it... Over the course of the following 2-3 months, we thought one or both of them might disappear for a time due to potential job obligations. This struck us acutely. I can't even explain why. And a concerted effort was made by all of us to spend more time together, even when it meant traveling to their home 3 hours away. And during those efforts, our relationship with them as individuals and as couples grew extraordinarily strong.

Now, skipping forward to the present, it seems that job obligations may not require our friends' long-term absence, and we find ourselves with a couple we love. I can't tell you how I loathed coming to that conclusion. My husband did it so much more easily. He is more of a risk taker, while I am a self-protector. And the challenges I am now facing are the ones that test my personal defenses. I now fear losing them. Neither one of us, as couples, is exclusive with the other, and I don't wish it. I do wish, however, that the insecurity that niggles when I know they have a new or old playmate/s (they tend to play more with singles than couples) would just go away. I wonder if they will take up all our friends' time and energy. I can so easily see, for myself, that no one can replace this couple, either one of them, and I even believe, without question, that for my female counterpart we are truly unique, and yet I find myself wondering, especially when I know the male half of the other couple is working on the next sexual conquest (he loves the game), am I really nothing more than an early stop in the development of his sexual prowess with others. With our normal swinger friends that thought simply never occurs to me. When I see the normal male counterpart in that mode, I think, "go for it, baby!" And yet, with this one, I can get a lump in my throat, even as I write. It did not help matters when, during a vanilla party with them and their friends, he showed an extraordinary insensitivity by overtly flirting all night with a vanilla single female friend of theirs (read next sexual conquest here), even though I was the one who would end up in bed with him. It is a truly odd situation when many of their vanilla friends know that they swing, and one will openly tease him and advertise her power, while my husband and I will, out of respect, hide our shared sexuality. This sort of situation was one that has been added to a list of those that we will intentionally avoid with the couple.

Ack! I hate it though, feeling vulnerable. I really do. And I've read the other poly postings here. I've read "Green-eyed over the secondary." I recognize that jealousy in any form is an indicator of fear of loss. And I accept that. What I'm clueless about is how to move beyond it.

The thoughts of other poly people are welcome. Really, any thoughts are welcome, so long as they aren't of the "You're such a dumbass" variety. The love words have already been exchanged. In some sense, the damage has already been done. For those of you who may be thinking, "dumbass," please know that I've already kicked myself. I did the very first time it hurt.

[IvoryTowers]

You are not a dumbass--you can't help how you feel. And you didn't actually say it in your post, so let me. You've fallen in love with this guy (maybe with this couple) and they are not in love with you.

What does this mean? Well, what happens when a single person falls in love with another single person and the feeling isn't reciprocated? The couple breaks up and one person is hurt.

I'm so sorry this has to happen to you, but at least you won't be alone this time, as you have your husband. But if the details of your post are exact (and it's hard to know how other people are feeling) then this couple likes you and likes having sex with you, but that's as far as it goes. If they are willing to drop out of sight for months and pursue other partners rather than spend time with you, they aren't in love. That's not wrong on their part, just as being in love isn't wrong on yours. It's just unfortunate that the feelings are mismatched.

My advice to you is to stop seeing this couple and certainly to stop sleeping with them. The feelings won't go away until you cut off contact and the sooner you do that the faster you can heal.

Tell your husband everything and make him realize you need his undivided attention and support as you get over this. Reassure him that he is still primary in your life, but that you fell for this couple and now you are grieving. Don't suffer in silence!

[LikeMinds321]

Is is that you love him/them, or just love being with him/them? The difference may be hard to determine but there is a difference and once you determine it I think you'll better handle your feelings.

You are finding yourself jealous when he flirts with others in front of you and I don't see this as unusual in your case; you see him as a (if not the) favorite playmate and when this happens you hope you are his favorite too. Am I correct?

I understand your feelings because very early on in our swinging I found myself hit by jealousy when with a couple for an outing who we would be playing with that night. When I saw him flirt with a vanilla I couldn't believe how it made me feel...jealous! I've never had a jealous bone in my body, yet here I was at this moment feeling jealous and also feeling it wasn't "respectful" to me to flirt with this woman when I felt I should have been his sole focus for that day of fun, flirting and sex.

What I did was mentally reset my button and told myself how silly I was being; we are swingers afterall, and I probably would have flirted with a vanilla guy that same day if I had the opportunity. After that I haven't had a problem with jealousy since.

I think it comes down to this. When you find someone to play with that is so special, may be THE most special person to have sex with (besides your spouse) you hope he feels the same way. If you don't think he does, there's that imbalance that doesn't feel good, a little sadness hits you, but you have to face that you are swingers and aren't exclusive. Both of you will be playing with other people.

My advice, continue to see this couple if you all are interested in doing so. But realize that to continue being with them and remain happy you'll have to push the reset button in your swinger mind and get rid of the jealousy. I think you can do that.

Good luck!

LM

[lustylearning]

Originally Posted by IvoryTowers

You are not a dumbass--you can't help how you feel. And you didn't actually say it in your post, so let me. You've fallen in love with this guy (maybe with this couple) and they are not in love with you.

What does this mean? Well, what happens when a single person falls in love with another single person and the feeling isn't reciprocated? The couple breaks up and one person is hurt.

I'm so sorry this has to happen to you, but at least you won't be alone this time, as you have your husband. But if the details of your post are exact (and it's hard to know how other people are feeling) then this couple likes you and likes having sex with you, but that's as far as it goes. If they are willing to drop out of sight for months and pursue other partners rather than spend time with you, they aren't in love. That's not wrong on their part, just as being in love isn't wrong on yours. It's just unfortunate that the feelings are mismatched.

My advice to you is to stop seeing this couple and certainly to stop sleeping with them. The feelings won't go away until you cut off contact and the sooner you do that the faster you can heal.

Tell your husband everything and make him realize you need his undivided attention and support as you get over this. Reassure him that he is still primary in your life, but that you fell for this couple and now you are grieving. Don't suffer in silence!

I believe you truly misread something. Allow me to clarify some things. There are no secrets between my husband and I. He knew the full contents of this post before you did. We have been in this together, not me alone. We've discussed the progression of the relationship ad nauseum. Please do not presume otherwise.

If I gave the impression this couple doesn't love us back, then I gave the wrong impression. Certainly, if I believed that, I'd drop the relationship like a hot rock. I'm no masochist. And if I gave the impression they would drop out of site for months willingly, that would also be entirely wrong. Deployment is not typically considered optional. I also do not seek exclusivity. I thought I'd made that clear.

The post was intended to give the reader, most specifically the poly reader, enough background to be able to provide advice about how to move beyond the insecurity. This is new to us. We weren't seeking this but now that we have it, we'd like to preserve it.

My husband is frustrated with me now because he feels I presented the information in such a way as to indicate regret. I do not regret it. But I am in unfamiliar waters and wish to successfully navigate them. And I do feel more vulnerable than he does. My male counterpart and I are more guarded than my husband and his female counterpart. We tend to rely more on unspoken actions than verbal reassurance.

[lustylearning]

Originally Posted by LikeMinds321

Is is that you love him/them, or just love being with him/them? The difference may be hard to determine but there is a difference and once you determine it I think you'll better handle your feelings.

It's truly both. And that's why I wish to work through these feelings. I wouldn't be surprised if we're lifelong friends/partners. There are times when we have, by agreement of all parties, allowed ourselves to treat our counterparts as true partners, as opposed to simply playmates. We are, none of us, dumb enough to take that lightly.

You used the word "disrespectful" earlier. That's how I viewed it. But I recognize that despite my irritation at the insensitivity, we are all, in some sense, kids in a candy store. Some of us are just more subtle about the drooling.

And thank you for your best wishes They are appreciated.

[IvoryTowers]

I'm sorry if I misread your post, although you didn't mention deployment just that they might have to be gone for some months due to "job obligations." Of course if they are deployed that says nothing about their feelings for you or vice versa!

And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that you've been hiding your feelings from your husband. Rather, if you had decided to take my advice and break of relations, you'd just need to be honest about why. That's all.

You are, of course, free not to take my advice. And I may be completely wrong and the other couple may feel as strongly towards you as you do towards them. Maybe all that's needed is some attitude adjustment on your part in terms of the man's flirtiness and everything will be fine.

It's just that you seemed very unhappy. You said the situation was one you "loathed" and that it took you a long time to admit you were in love. That it made you jealous and upset when he flirted with or pursued others. I was just trying to suggest a way out of situation that seemed to make you more miserable than happy.

Good luck with this couple. I hope you have a wonderful long term relationship with them if that's what you want. I have no experience managing a quad, so I'll shut up now.

[SW_PA_Couple]

Your story touches me. I will not try to advise. But I can express empathy. I have tried to deny it but I often feel jealous. You have probably already figured out you are not the only one. But I just thought I would say it.

~M

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by lustylearning

My male counterpart and I are more guarded than my husband and his female counterpart. We tend to rely more on unspoken actions than verbal reassurance.

I think this expresses a lot of my thoughts when reading your initial post. My thoughts were on communication (yours as a couple with them as a couple). It sounds like perhaps your husband and the other woman may have better verbal communication of their feelings and status than you do with the other man.

Have you discussed with the other man how you feel when he ignores you in favor of his next conquest? Have you discussed ways to get past this or to avoid it? Obviously, you said that you will no longer allow yourselves to be in these vanilla situations with them (where the type of situation with the singles can occur). It may be best if the 4 of you opt to keep your play/enjoyment of each other to a couple on couple basis. I'm not talking about being exclusive but just about not mixing your pleasures in such a way that you are with each other when other potential playmates are around. I would avoid visiting clubs together, for example.

Ideally, it would be best if you can come to the same terms with them that you have with your own spouses. You don't get jealous of your own husband when he is focused on a potential playmate. So try to think of how you go to that point with him. As someone else put it, jealousy is a fear of loss. You've gotten to the point with your husband where you love and trust him enough that you do not fear losing him. However, with this other couple, you are still worried that you are just a stepping stone on their way to the next playmates, and that some other couple might come along and replace you. If they truly feel the same way about you, then you should not have to worry about that. If you doubt how they feel about you, then you need to talk to them.

[lustylearning]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

I think this expresses a lot of my thoughts when reading your initial post. My thoughts were on communication (yours as a couple with them as a couple). It sounds like perhaps your husband and the other woman may have better verbal communication of their feelings and status than you do with the other man.

Have you discussed with the other man how you feel when he ignores you in favor of his next conquest? Have you discussed ways to get past this or to avoid it? Obviously, you said that you will no longer allow yourselves to be in these vanilla situations with them (where the type of situation with the singles can occur). It may be best if the 4 of you opt to keep your play/enjoyment of each other to a couple on couple basis. I'm not talking about being exclusive but just about not mixing your pleasures in such a way that you are with each other when other potential playmates are around. I would avoid visiting clubs together, for example.

Ideally, it would be best if you can come to the same terms with them that you have with your own spouses. You don't get jealous of your own husband when he is focused on a potential playmate. So try to think of how you go to that point with him. As someone else put it, jealousy is a fear of loss. You've gotten to the point with your husband where you love and trust him enough that you do not fear losing him. However, with this other couple, you are still worried that you are just a stepping stone on their way to the next playmates, and that some other couple might come along and replace you. If they truly feel the same way about you, then you should not have to worry about that. If you doubt how they feel about you, then you need to talk to them.

Funny that you should mention the club, Julie. I'm beginning to think it was being trapped in their vanilla environment surrounded by their friends that was the real aggravating factor in that particular situation. In the club, everyone has the same goal going in, and it's in that environment that I am, perhaps, most comfortable. If there's something I don't want to see, I don't need to look. I can do other things. You asked if he and I had discussed how I feel when he ignores me in favor of his next sexual conquest. It wasn't put in quite those terms, but we did discuss that particular situation that night. He didn't hesitate to point out to me that I am that way myself, in the club. And I had to agree. It's true. The issue boiled down more to timing, circumstances, his oblivion, and my ego.

Maybe the key to increasing my comfort level really does lie in being more verbally open with the other. And maybe this posting was my way of gathering the courage to do it. That would be bass ackwards, wouldn't it?

Thank you all for your feedback. I'm certainly open to more. What an odd rabbit hole this is! Thanks for popping your heads in and letting me know I'm not the only rabbit.

[ncmd_couple]

Originally Posted by IvoryTowers

I'm sorry if I misread your post, although you didn't mention deployment just that they might have to be gone for some months due to "job obligations." Of course if they are deployed that says nothing about their feelings for you or vice versa!

Ivory,

Those of us who are ex-military pick up on that "code word" immediatly. The military frowns on swinging and it could cause the military member major problems.

S

[ncmd_couple]

Lusty,

We are in a simular situation, though it has not progressed as far down the attachment road as your relationship has because we have not allowed it to go that far. The reason for this is that we knew that in the relatively near future we would be parting ways and they would be moving West, and we will be moving South. Though it could have very easily gotten out of control. Something that would have been wonderful, but would have made the parting more difficult than it will be.

The other thing that is hanging out there in the back of your mind is that a PCS is coming down the road. Either the other couple could be transfered, or if you are also a military family, you could be transfered. And that day is looming out there somewhere.

One of the things that I love about my military service is the close connection that I have with those that I have served with. We can be thousands of miles apart for years and when we meet we will pick up like we had just had a long weekend.

Love is always a good thing, and parting is always sweet sorrow. But there may never be another tomorrow for any one of us. Do not waste the day, love to the fullest.

S

[lustylearning]

Originally Posted by ncmd_couple

Love is always a good thing, and parting is always sweet sorrow. But there may never be another tomorrow for any one of us. Do not waste the day, love to the fullest.

S

Agreed.

And so, in direct fashion, and with the courage I've gathered throughout the day. I addressed the issue, the fear, the need for clarification. Julie pointed out the need to be on the same page, and I realized that I had nothing to fear but fear itself. Either the relationship is what it seems to be or it is not, and if it's not, then it is crucial to know that.

And now I find that I only wish I had done it sooner

Thank you everyone. And special thanks to rpu3 for the website shared in pm. That, too, helped.

[ncmd_couple]

Originally Posted by lustylearning

And now I find that I only wish I had done it sooner

I learned that lesson the hard way a couple of years ago, I just wish I had learned it several years sooner! I'm very happy for all four of you!

S

[fun4Ds]

Originally Posted by lustylearning

And special thanks to rpu3 for the website shared in pm. That, too, helped.

Well thats not fair, you gotta share.

I have problems understanding some of the poly issues. Its why I only read to understand.

I see people put up shields, myself included...

Thats not much help , see why I don't post much here

[lustylearning]

Polyamory? What, like, two girlfriends? was a helpful link when I was trying to pick apart some of the thoughts that led me to post originally. Again, thanks to rpu3 for sharing. I'd recommend it to people who wish to research poly further.