Why shiver my timbers - IT is Natural!

[mixtupcpl]

Thats exactly correct and old Europe is a great example that is similar to modern Islam.

The original impetus for the trend was necessity (fewer men). As the population evens out, the cultural tradition doesn't automatically reverse, so you end up with a situation that is largely untenable.

So what happens is a class discrimination where the powerful, as usual, consume more resources than they need.

But I dont think any of this is a "natural" process. It is all man made and the result of being sentient. The species goes to war because we think. We kill each other off (because we DONT think really), to the point where there is a population imbalance. We are thinking enough to devise a mechanism to repair it. This mechanism is something nicely abused by powerful men (who generally rule the planet) moving forward so it stays in place.

All of that is interesting and worthy of study, but I dont see how any of it points to a biological tendency towards a genuine "poly" structure. It is more further evidence that the male of the species is often quite horrible in his treatment of his fellow humans.

[Chicup]

War is natural.

Chimps go to war frequently, and many animals kill there own kind for food/sex, which is what its all about.

Most of the HEAVY poly societies like the ancient Inca did not have an population imbalance due to war, but a stability which lead to concentrations of central authority and to MASSIVE polygamy, with 100's and 1000's of women for the elite. I forget the numbers but a village head was allowed 10 wives, and it went up to the 10's of thousands for the emperor. Anyone not political was pretty much out of luck.

What this does do though, is allow those 'spare' males to be used for war, and their motivation is women.

This is not unremarked on today.

I have a Taiwanese friend who looks at China with their surplus of young, unmarried, males as a source of potential danger. He might not be an evolutionary biologist but he can see the obvious.

[mixtupcpl]

Chicup,

Thats an excellent post and very interesting food for thought. The bizarre irony with China is that it is a problem they deliberately created through the strong desire to only have sons and discard daughters (not exactly effective long term). Its amazing the holes humans can dig for themselves.

Also great insight on the Inca. I wasnt aware of that. Not surprising though, that Darwinian drivers manifest in particularly nasty ways in a higher order species.

Youre right, war is natural in a world of finite resources.

BTW - all of this is exactly what I mean in terms of "poly" not being "natural" in the sense in which poly is used in an alternate lifestyle discussion. Women being treated as a resource by the alpha class is, possibly, inevitable.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by mixtupcpl

BTW - all of this is exactly what I mean in terms of "poly" not being "natural" in the sense in which poly is used in an alternate lifestyle discussion. Women being treated as a resource by the alpha class is, possibly, inevitable.

I'm not so sure.

Most poly, as in long term stable poly, is 1 man and more than 1 woman, even in alt lifestyle types. Multiple male poly never seems to last and is only found culturally in one society where women are scarce. In that one two brothers may wed the same woman, but its always the younger siblings desire to have his own if able.

I think a 'group family' like Robert Heinlien wrote about in various books could work, but again it would require special circumstances.

[mixtupcpl]

Yes, thats exactly what Im driving at. I should express it that way. What I see often discussed in the alt lifestyle context is actually multi-male. And while I think maybe certain individuals could be wired to somehow make that work, and battle all of the societal pressure, I feel that this is very much an exception.

And then with the multi-female, it seems the root cause can always trace back to some variation on "males in power want more".

So that brings me back to wondering if poly relationships are truly "natural" in the sense that alt lifestyle folks discuss.

For me to buy into that, I would need to see exactly what Heinlien theorized playing out on some kind of large scale.

For me to believe that 1:1 coupling is just "societal programming" I would need to see a lot more evidence than instances where men with power abused that power to take all of the women, is what I'm saying.

Half the time I see "poly" in the above posts, it appears to mean 1:n, generally 1 male multiple female -- aka polygamy.

The n:n case (and of n:m where n ~= m) would function much differently.

Consider "courtly love", assuming human nature commonly took it's course behind closed doors.

Or what I hope is the most common expression today -- she has boy friends, he has girlfriends, and in a larger population boys and girls are in similar number.

Finally, the M:F birth ratio is 21:20. I forget what age the ration evens out, and of course at "old age" surviving women well out number surviving men. So, in middle age would females outnumbering males encourage FMF relationships? Or do all the extra women go off to the convent?

(I believe there were historic "convent environments" where independent females could reside and maintain liaisons with outsiders. I good deal for those who didn't want to end up owned by some male...)

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by rdy46227

Finally, the M:F birth ratio is 21:20. I forget what age the ration evens out, and of course at "old age" surviving women well out number surviving men. So, in middle age would females outnumbering males encourage FMF relationships? Or do all the extra women go off to the convent?

It equals out very early before breeding age is past, men are more likely to die younger due to how we tend to act, also we are slightly more prone to genetic diseases due to the whole XY vrs XX in terms of chromosome issues, hemophilia being the best known example.

World Sex ratio:

• at birth: 1.07 male(s)/female
• under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
• 15-64 years: 1.02 male(s)/female
• 65 years and over: 0.78 male(s)/female
• total population: 0.92 male(s)/female (2008 est.)

Source: CIA World Fact Book

Using the UN World population database 2006 revision 5 year intervals in year 2005, the break even age (interpolated by me) was

49 - World

38 - Europe
52 - Western Europe
33 - Eastern Europe

22 - Latin America and the Caribbean

38 - Northern America
42 - Canada
41 - United States

68 - Eastern Asia
71 - China
42 - Japan

61 - India

30 - Australia & New Zealand

[PB&J]

Originally Posted by mixtupcpl

And then with the multi-female, it seems the root cause can always trace back to some variation on "males in power want more".

Exactly. It couldn't be more different from what we in the lifestyle are pursuing- an equality of sexuality. Those multiple women married or possessed by the chieftan/sheik/king had no choice or options in the matter. That would explain the harem armed guards, usually castrated, just to make sure that the one guy had exclusive access to all those women.

[avid]

You guys crack me up.

Here you are, having this academic discussion, and here's me, pretty much living the exact opposite of your theories and suppositions.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by avid

You guys crack me up.

Here you are, having this academic discussion, and here's me, pretty much living the exact opposite of your theories and suppositions.

To use an anecdote, statistically smoking will decrease ones life expectancy, even though some people may live past 100 while smoking their entire lives.

You are in a rare situation, with even rarer long term success. That does not mean it can't succeed.

I know of one MFM triad which did seem to have long term survival, but the men were both quite bisexual, which changes the dynamic of the discussion tremendously.