What brings people to poly?

[mixtupcpl]

I kind of reject the notion that "monogamy" (that term seems misapplied here really), is just "societal programming"

I very much agree with Jdavisauto, on this. The primary defense of swinging is that a truly committed couple, that truly loves each other, demonstrates the intensity and power of that love by acknowledging that humans are sexual animals and that the physical act of sex shouldnt be allowed to become a wedge in your love for each other.

Thats cool. I get that.

Poly though? No offense to anyone (really), but it seems like it is either:

A) an anomaly that occurs in some folks who actually CANNOT separate love from sex

OR

B) the entire thing (swinging, poly, all of it) is a bit of a farce and monogamy IS "human nature". When I read the poly stories here, it seems like a path from committed couple living "vanilla" and "unawakened" to evolving to the point where they are open and embrace swinging and then, what, evolving? or devolving? to the point where they somehow return BACK to being closed, but only now with TWO partners?

I'm not knocking this at all because I believe that what works for people is good for them. I just wonder at the kind of implied subtext that this is really the "norm" but people havent "figured it out yet"

It also seems like in the examples here it is the women finding a second husband. I wonder if the first husband, deep down inside, ever thought "maybe swinging wasnt such a good idea"?

I have to say I almost have second thoughts on the LS after reading these threads! (but curiosity always brings me back to uncomfortable places )

The deep love my wife and I share has brought us to the point where we can accept that we're "Swingers". But the thought of being faced with "Husband 2.0" and having to hear "I have fallen in love with this other man. I still love you, but now I love him too. If you dont like it, I can end it" and then bearing the weight of either 1) breaking her heart or 2) breaking mine, is terrifying!

Are you guys saying that in no case did actually falling in LOVE with another person and committing to them, making time, being a real family, etc, bother the original spouse at all? It seems hard to believe. Seems more likely that the other spouse realized pandoras box was open, had no way to close it, still loved their spouse more than anything, and just made room for spouse #2.

Again... Im not making judgments, just trying to understand b/c this is interesting and possibly cautionary. The poly stuff I read here to me feels like monogamy with 3 or 4 people.

[GoNatural]

mixtupcpl, I agree with in some ways, but only to the extent that I believe that non-hierarchial polyamory is a self motivated choice, and not something that is part of human nature. I believe that is can still work, because humans are capable of enjoying creative decision that they make, regardless of what the majority of a given culture does.

Now, hierachial polyamory, where your spouse is your primary and #1 in your life is a different story. This is much closer to the emotional and sexual behavior of humans over the eons of time. They didn't just have purely recreational sex with their "other lovers". Romance, seduction, and possibly love was involved, but this was all secondary (and most always hidden) from their primary partner.

So, it is natural for humans to have affairs. Now that our society is more enlightened, we can understand and accept the drive to be involved with others, and go about it in an honest way.

Having multiple lovers of different ranks in your life is perfectly natural, while being egalitarian about it comes from a concious choice to treat them all equally, if you prefer non-hierarchial polyamory.

[mixtupcpl]

GoNatural,

Great post. Thank you for the food for thought. I have to digest this and think about it some more.

One cool thing about this is that I discussed it with my wife. For her, she needs to feel some kind of emotional attachment to the person she is with and it could POSSIBLY become some sort of "love" if we found a couple we bonded with long term, but her feeling is that no one could possibly replace me for her because of the history we have shared that simply cant be duplicated.

Also, she doesnt *want* someone getting so close that our lives merge, but rather being close enough that the comfort level is there. I guess like a truly bonded vanilla couple, but with some very interesting strings

So maybe then this does become a kind of a choice for those involved that, as long as all agree, is fantastic.

Also, I'm thinking that many people probably operate like my wife. Where they are compartmentalizing and, I guess, building that hierarchy you describe.

As swinging is to vanilla, poly is to swinging, I suspect, in that some folks are simply "wired" to be able to go all the way to that next level and not really have a hierarchy (as some of these stories sound - sounds like peers to me)

And I find it VERY interesting that in those stories, it sort of sounds like they are all exclusive (I could be reading into it though)

Anyway... What a fascinating topic this is! I know its not for my wife and I. For us, a strong trust with a little network of like-minded couples (like a dirty secret we all share) is what would be our ideal space. Of course we would have feelings for these people, but they would more likely be of an extended family nature. I find it just tremendously interesting, though, that some folks *do* form these full-time primary meshes AND make them work.

[avid]

Originally Posted by mixtupcpl

Poly though? No offense to anyone (really), but it seems like it is either:

A) an anomaly that occurs in some folks who actually CANNOT separate love from sex

OR

B) the entire thing (swinging, poly, all of it) is a bit of a farce and monogamy IS "human nature". When I read the poly stories here, it seems like a path from committed couple living "vanilla" and "unawakened" to evolving to the point where they are open and embrace swinging and then, what, evolving? or devolving? to the point where they somehow return BACK to being closed, but only now with TWO partners?

While I certainly admire strong, well-thought out opinions, I wonder how much "real life" exposure you have to polyamory.

I don't really see it as an either/or situation. We are a poly triad and we swing. It's all good, and we can most certainly separate love from sex.

I'm not knocking this at all because I believe that what works for people is good for them. I just wonder at the kind of implied subtext that this is really the "norm" but people havent "figured it out yet"

I agree with you, I hate the implication that one group or the other is more evolved than those who sit on the other side of the fence. There is certainly a lot of judgement from both camps, the swingers and the polys.

It also seems like in the examples here it is the women finding a second husband. I wonder if the first husband, deep down inside, ever thought "maybe swinging wasnt such a good idea"?

Well, that might be the case, but I got involved with my partner romantically before we looked at swinging. We found that we needed to take time to establish OUR relationship before we brought others into it. Sound familiar? My husband found it much easier to relate to poly than he did to swinging. I think it's that he's shy, and doesn't realize how sexy he is.

I have to say I almost have second thoughts on the LS after reading these threads! (but curiosity always brings me back to uncomfortable places )

Can you expand on this? I'm not sure what you mean.

Are you guys saying that in no case did actually falling in LOVE with another person and committing to them, making time, being a real family, etc, bother the original spouse at all? It seems hard to believe. Seems more likely that the other spouse realized pandoras box was open, had no way to close it, still loved their spouse more than anything, and just made room for spouse #2

There is no relationship that doesn't take work. What do we always say here? Communicate, communicate, communicate. My husband and I have a tremendously deep, committed, and loving relationship. We ALWAYS discuss issues that arise. My partner, too, is the kind of guy who is SO careful not to tread on anyone's toes. We (generally speaking) took it slow and worked on things until we got to where we are now. Doesn't mean there weren't any bumps in the road.

Again... Im not making judgments, just trying to understand b/c this is interesting and possibly cautionary.

Sure you're making a judgement. We all make them, all the time. Why do you say "cautionary"?

The poly stuff I read here to me feels like monogamy with 3 or 4 people.

Speaking only for us, not at all. I love sharing my men with other women, and I love meeting couples, and getting to know both the man and woman of the couple.

I don't imagine that we'd be terribly open to finding another person to add to our "tribe", because what we're doing is enough work, but I won't say never.

[mixtupcpl]

Too much to reply to section by section... Ill just summarize.

For me, real life experience with this = absolute 0, so you are right there! It's not something I would be interested in personally, but I'm interested in learning about it. Make sense hopefully?

The reason I say cautionary, and that it is a little bit uncomfortable, is because it seems like a potential emotional risk I honestly had never thought of .

In other words, in the event that one partner falls really deeply for another person and wants to actually move to some sort of real, committed, poly thing, the other partner is potentially faced with a very hard decision. That's a little scary, which is why I say it almost makes me second guess the LS. In other words, lets say my wife were to say "hey, that guy we've been swinging with for a while. I'm really in love with him and want to move him in" That would be an absolute and definite no from me. Which would then put me in a position to have to tell her "this is across one of my boundaries so thats not happening" Which would then cause her a heartbreak which would completely suck because the whole point (to me) of this LS is to have fun as a couple.

All of this said, I think I "get it" more now after reading GoNatural's post.

In some sense, anyone who is more interested in having a decent connection when swinging (my wife and I are definitely like this) has SOME form of poly situation going if you just go by the semantics. Because, obviously, you do have feelings on some level for the couple you've connected with. But I consider this very different than the true poly scenarios discussed here where it is essentially some sort of 4 way marriage.

And I'm really not making a judgment in the sense that I'm not saying that I think there's anything wrong with this for folks for whom it works, it's just something entirely new to me that I find interesting and want to understand.

I do have *some* experience with this in the sense that my wife and I had an open marriage for a long while and she had one long term guy who she loves on some level and he loves her also. I dont want to get into the drama of it, but ultimately, he wanted her to leave and go with him. This of course didn't happen (or I'd be Status: Single, LOL), but the whole thing was kind of painful. If he had been a poly type, I guess, and said "how about I live with you two" that would have been a HUGE "NO" from me which would have had the same result.

So for my wife and I we have decided that minimizing emotional ties is the key to having this stay purely fun. So we closed the open marriage, moved to swinging, and are just looking for, essentially, couple friends we connect with that are on the same wavelength.

[lustylearning]

Wow. I just want to say thanks for all the thoughtful questions and responses put forth in this thread.

My husband and I have noted that, at least for us, there is a sort of hierarchical nature to the partners we've encountered: the fun fly-by-nighters, with or without the potential for more; the occasional couples we could meet 2-3X year and enjoy; and then there are the couples that we really, really like, of which some we'll meet monthly or even more often. Those frequent flyer couples have produced in us the most emotions, which is, I suppose, normal. It's difficult to spend a lot of time with people and not develop some sort of feelings for them.

Now I believe, personally (I won't even try to speak for my better half on this), that love is a choice. The concepts of "falling in love" and "soulmates" are, to me, mythical. And no, I don't have a romantic bone in my body (poor hubby). So it is easy for me to understand what I would deem to be a decision to love more than one person.

So in reading this thread, I find myself questioning why, if I can understand it, I'm not the traditional "exclusive" poly. I do believe in the unlimited capacity of the human heart to love, after all. But I think that for me, it's a matter of practicality and experience. We have and will continue to enjoy a variety of sexual partners. Any exclusivity with others would diminish that. My husband is primary, and our commitment is born of love, time, and experience together. I know him and know how to work with him to achieve common goals. To introduce a new player or players to the team would be, at best, difficult. I also prefer being primary. I never want to have to question my husband's number one relationship priority. I need a certain amount of security and control in my life, and our marital commitment and family provide that. And aside from all that, I'm amazed anyone finds the time between the rat race and the primary relationship to bring anyone else so close. So I think these factors combine to create my choice to not seek the traditional poly relationship. They don't prevent me, however, from caring deeply for others, and as a couple, we would probably fall on the poly end, rather than the "use them and lose them" end of the spectrum.

Risk. Risk was mentioned. To care deeply for someone other than your partner is risky, indeed, because you stand to be hurt. But frankly, vanilla friends and family hold that same power. And there is a truth in the notion that where nothing is ventured, nothing is gained. So the question becomes, is life enhanced by caring for others? Well, for us it is. By the same token, not everyone is the same. And we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that what works for us does not translate to everyone.

Again, thanks to all the other responders for giving me great food for thought.

[mixtupcpl]

lustylearning...

Great post. Very interesting insight. I think you captured a lot of what I'm feeling, but was unable to articulate

[gatorvol64]

Originally Posted by mixtupcpl

Are you guys saying that in no case did actually falling in LOVE with another person and committing to them, making time, being a real family, etc, bother the original spouse at all? It seems hard to believe. Seems more likely that the other spouse realized pandoras box was open, had no way to close it, still loved their spouse more than anything, and just made room for spouse #2.

Again... Im not making judgments, just trying to understand b/c this is interesting and possibly cautionary. The poly stuff I read here to me feels like monogamy with 3 or 4 people.

No, I've never said that Gator falling in love with Kitten didn't bother me initially. I won't say it all again here but you may like to go back and read my posts. The suddenness of it was a huge factor I think.

I DID have a choice. Even if the Pandora's box was open I could have closed it. I chose not to. Yes, it was a tough decision and my love for him was a large part of my decision. However, if at any time, I thought it was going to be an end to he and I, I'd have stopped it. No matter the hurt feelings. If he hadn't been willing to "pull the plug" then our marriage wasn't what I thought anyway. Married couples face the same risk everyday. Monogamous or not. There is always the possibility that your spouse will meet someone else. Unlikely for most couples here I'll admit but, the risk is there.

Kitten brings things out in Gator that I don't. He gets to indulge some of his personality traits with her that he doesn't with me. I truthfully like seeing that.

Now, as to the 3 or 4 together monogamously. Well, its never been in doubt that I am still willing to swing. Solidifying our relationship has been more important. And frankly, while we still have to live 2 hours apart, it is difficult enough just finding time to be together. Some of the four are not interested in swinging at all right now. So, we will deal with this the same as each original couple did. Slowest pace goes. Maybe we'll swing again next week and maybe we won't swing again at all. And I'll only speak for myself on this. I'm more than willing to see both my men have a good time with another woman. And they know this.

Vol

[rdy46227]

Him about her: She can form deep emotional attachments to multiple people, but was afraid/conditioned/sinning to say "I love you" outside a single relationship. Eventually she accepted that 1) it's OK to love more than one at a time, and 2) each relationship brings different things.

So she chooses a good marriage relationship and other relationships which supplement but don't challenge (create either/or choices within) her primary.

Speaking as her primary, accepting poly as OK provided her great internal relief, and let her blossom. In other words, she found poly triads as the solution to her emotional turmoil.

[rdy46227]

Him about him: Exclusivity always seemed like an unreasonable/unnecessary restriction, imposed because someone was so insecure as to need to control another. In other words, healthy people should be able to conduct themselves rationally to create win-win relationships with many people.

Controlling what you do will not make me happy, and I certainly can't make someone love me. But I can make agreements/commitments that I can keep, and trust certain others to do the same, and communicate/renegotiate/evolve the relationship.

I've always tried to conduct any ongoing non-superficial relationship this way.

I've had simultaneous relationships where there was sexual chemistry, and have been fortunate that my then current web of relationships allowed bringing in sex without negative impact. And other times, I've had to refrain because I wanted to maintain some other relationship which I considered worth more than the sex I'd miss.

Yes, I'm weird and the vast majority of the population says that I'm either lying, crazy, and/or impossibly idealistic.

And yes, people like me are sparse, and I've found several who disappointed me by not being able to hold to my ideal, and I had to adopt the more common "defensive relationship" -- somewhere between "trust but verify" and "watch your back".

Bottom line: poly is a expected occurrence in my philosophy so it was a natural growth path for some of my relationships.

[horneinmo]

Be wary...the "Life-style" is not for everyone..Make sure you are both comfortable with each other,and can handle watching someone else fuck them...

[GoNatural]

Originally Posted by rdy46227

2) each relationship brings different things.

So she chooses a good marriage relationship and other relationships which supplement but don't challenge her primary.

Yes, each relationship does bring certain things! That is a positive thing. The variety can be interesting, exciting, and fulfilling.

I dream of being a primary to such a woman someday.

[lustylearning]

I think it must evolve, naturally.

[ncmd_couple]

Except for a short period of one year being “single,” up until two years ago I had always been in monogamous relationships. At least outwardly so. Women had come into my life that I cared about. That level of caring in some cases I can honestly say is love. I was always in the position that I could not openly say what my feelings were because society’s norms said that I was not allowed to love more than one woman at a time. Those were emotional relationships, not sexual relationships.

So, over the years I internally explored trying to identify who I was. Serendipity came calling one day and I learned the word polyamory. Researching and reading I learned that polyamory is what really describes me the best. I love my wife very much, she is my “primary” and always will be. But I can now honestly say that there are other women in my life that I can love and care about whether or not there is any sexual relationship between me and them or not. And as swingers, we can have sex with others without emotional ties. For me, there is no direct connection between love and sex.

The other women in my life? Life’s circumstances prevent anything further coming of our relationship. That doesn’t mean that I don’t love and care about them. But our life paths are different. Will that change in the future? I don’t know. It is possible that my wife and I will always be a couple without a third or fourth in our lives. It is also possible that another individual or couple might find themselves walking beside us on the same path.

Being poly is who I am. Being emotionally honest with myself, my wife, and those that I care about at different levels. To me swinging is a social openness acknowledging what society keeps throwing sand on. People are sexual creatures. Swinging opens that door and says that it is ok to be who you are. To openly say that someone is attractive to you in a sexual way, and being able to honestly express that to your partner as well as the one that you find attractive on a sexual level, not on an emotional level.

S

[lustylearning]

ncmd, you mentioned serendipity came calling. My guess is that once you realized serendipity had made it's appearance, you were already down the poly rabbit hole looking out, wondering, "How'd I get here? Where am I? What am I doing? Am I different? Or are these individuals I'm involved with somehow different?"

I'm curious. Did you start as swingers? Or did poly introduce you to swinging? And how did one change the other for you, if at all?