Disagreenment about the "About the Poly Forum"

[sereneiders]

Even when Menage_a_Trois gave a good description of the difference between Poly, Poly Swingers and Swingers, I believe they leave aside another category where many of us falls.

The text say "People who are Poly Swingers desire to establish a loving relationship with the people they swing with", if this is true, then I don't consider ourselves as Poly Swingers (nor plain Poly).

The fact is, we do not desire to establish a loving relationship with every swinger we play with, but we're open to establish it ONLY with those who feel the same way we do about this.

This isn't a subtle difference, it's one that makes a HUGE difference in the way swinging overlaps with polyamory. If you look at the threads which started in other forums and were moved here, you should realize this is EXACTLY the motivation some swingers have to avoid Poly Swingers like the pest, they claim "I don't want to play with people who holds the desire to fall in love with us/some of us". I spent a lot of words being cornered while trying to explain I DONT DESIRE to fall in love with them (moreover, that here's no possible desire to do so in such an scenario).

Sadly, the thread is closed, but I believe it is important to make it clear this distinction. If you want, make another category (I feel it fits better) of "Poly-Friendly Swingers". If not, I feel the stickky thread "About the Poly Forum" could be doing more harm than good: we've already played with about 20-30 people (without even bringing the poly subject nor "desiring" to fall in love of them), and developed just two poly relationships, so I'd rather preffer to say I am not Poly-whatever in order to have a chance to play with the other swingers. Do you see my point?

I'd appreciate Menage_a_Trois to review the sticky and ask an administrator to correct it.

Thanks.

Edit:
BTW, I am sure there are another category, of people in a poly relationship (a group), who engage in swinging without the desire of including those swinger partners in their relationship.

[JustAskJulie]

First off the original post was closed by me, as are ALL of the "about the.... forum" posts which are stuck to the top of each forum, not to prevent discussion of what is included in that post, but to prevent it from occuring in that post. The "about the" posts are made for a reason to make clear the purpose of each individual forum, not to discuss that purpose. That does not mean that it can not be discussed.

That said, in this particular case, the post that the Menages made in the "about the Poly Forum" thread was not only approved by me and all the other mods but it was actually reviewed, discussed and edited in length prior to being posted (which is why it took a little while after the forum opened before that post appeared).

As to your question, I don't see anywhere in the post where it says that poly-swingers develop a loving relationship with EVERYONE they swing with, in fact it says just the opposite in the very next sentance:

Originally Posted by menage_a_trois

Poly Swingers tend to look for some type of emotional attachment. They may not require it to swing, but they are open to letting it develop as things go along.

you posted:

Originally Posted by sereneiders

The fact is, we do not desire to establish a loving relationship with every swinger we play with, but we're open to establish it ONLY with those who feel the same way we do about this.

I'm pretty sure that says the exact same thing. you don't require it but you are open to it should it happen.

Does that mean you won't have a hard time explaining that to people who don't understand what poly is? No. Is it really any different than someone looking at swingers and thinking "oh they want to have sex with everyone they meet"? No, it's about the same. People make assumptions about things they don't understand.

[Menage_a_Trois]

We feel that you, (Sereneiders) are being a little nit picky with this. If you had read the entire thing you would know that we address your concern with the next part of that same paragraph

Originally Posted by Menage_a_Trois

People who are Poly Swingers desire to establish a loving relationship with the people they swing with. Poly Swingers tend to look for some type of emotional attachment. They may not require it to swing, but they are open to letting it develop as things go along. They see emotional attachments as a natural progression. But it’s important to emphasis that most people who develop close friendships within the lifestyle are not poly swingers.

No where in our post did we say that Poly Swingers look to develop a loving relationship with EVERYONE they swing with, nor did we say that they require their swing partners to want be more than to be just playmates.

Originally Posted by sereneiders

The fact is, we do not desire to establish a loving relationship with every swinger we play with, but we're open to establish it ONLY with those who feel the same way we do about this.

This is exactly the point we made in our post with the following:

Originally Posted by Menage_a_Trois

They may not require it to swing, but they are open to letting it develop as things go along. They see emotional attachments as a natural progression.

Although a lot of people in the swing lifestyle would be offended, scared or find it disturbing that someone would suggest anything remotely Poly, no one is saying that a poly swinger must announce to all their play partners that they are interested in poly relationships. If you, Sereneiders have a problem with stating that you are poly when meeting with "new" or "potential" play partners in the lifestyle then you need to learn when to discern what is the correct time, IF ever, to mention it. We know a lot of people who are in the swing lifestyle who are not comfortable and have NO desire to have any type of poly relationship. So why would you ever bring it up to them? It's kind of like mentioning to another couple who has a set rule of playing in the same room only, why would you possibly run the risk of offending or upsetting them by suggesting separate rooms or the couple who only plays with condoms and you suggest going bareback, don't you think they might be a little put off? This is common sense people! We fail to see how what you, Sereneiders is suggesting as far as the "don't ask, don't tell" is anything more than just common sense and being discrete.

Originally Posted by sereneiders

BTW, I am sure there are another category, of people in a poly relationship (a group), who engage in swinging without the desire of including those swinger partners in their relationship.

Maybe we're missing something in what you are trying to state here but we feel we had already covered this in the original message. See quote below.

Originally Posted by Menage_a_Trois

These have only been brief general basic explanations of Polyamory, Swinging and Poly Swinging. They are by no mean a “right way” or “only way” these relationships happen. However, like everything in Polyamory and the Swinging Lifestyle, each couple/individual has a different idea on what Polyamory and Swinging is and how it works for them.

If there is something we are missing and just not getting please enlighten us. We are really trying to address everyone but the reality is Poly and Swinging are two very diverse topics in and of themselves, mix the two together and the possibilities become infinite.

[sereneiders]

Menage_a_Trois,

Thank you for your reply, and let me appologize because perhaps you're right, I am being picky about this.

I won't argue against your oppinion here. I believe I already said what I feel I had to say, and would hate to start a debate at the risk of undermining your effort and the effor of the administrators. If you feel my mindsetting is being covered with the original post, I'll accept it, moreover taking into acount that I may be taking the sentences too literaly due to the language barrier. Anyway, if you feel this deserve to be discussed or that I wasn't clear enough, I'd be glad to do it privatelly.

However, I have to say something about your come on how I should behave. The fact is, we do exactly what you suggest, however, your suggestion doesn't apply to the Forum, where we're supposed to speak openly. Besides, we once meet a couple who expressed their concern about their playmates honesty. The argument was pretty pragmatical, they said the only way for them to ensure everyone involved would be in the same page while playing is by knowing beforehand and upfront the other couple's interests, desires and mindset. This seems fair enough to me, so even when I do what you suggest, it'd be important for me to find the way to be upfront about this without disrrupting anything nor making people unconfortable.

Thanks again.

[Menage_a_Trois]

Upon reflecting on this discussion, one thing that keeps coming to mind is that this forum is about that small area where swinging and polyamory overlap; which is known as Poly Swinging. Swingers who are "poly friendly" ( a.k.a. Poly Friendly Swingers) do NOT fall into this over lap, they are SWINGERS pure and simple. We know several people who are swingers who are poly friendly BUT have NO interst in a poly relationship for themselves. However, people who are reseptive to the idea of a loving relationship forming at somepoint with right person/couple do fall into this over lap. This does NOT mean that they want to have this type of relationship with everyone that they swing with through the lifestyle.

T, A, and P

[JTcamp05]

Its all kinda confusing ....what if your swingers but just wish to swing with couples you are attracted too, have respect for, enjoy outseid of the bedroom, and if that happens to be only one couple at a time or an extened period of time...what group do you fall into?

[TNT]

Originally Posted by JTcamp05

Its all kinda confusing ....what if your swingers but just wish to swing with couples you are attracted too, have respect for, enjoy outseid of the bedroom, and if that happens to be only one couple at a time or an extened period of time...what group do you fall into?

IMO, what you described would be considered an exclusive "swinging" relationship...not a poly relationship in that you do not mention any emotions being involved beyond that of friendship.


Teresa

[Menage_a_Trois]

Originally Posted by JTcamp05

Its all kinda confusing ....what if your swingers but just wish to swing with couples you are attracted too, have respect for, enjoy outseid of the bedroom, and if that happens to be only one couple at a time or an extened period of time...what group do you fall into?

If you ask yourself the following, it might help clear up the confusion. Is this couple, someone that you just want to be closed friends with, that you happen to enjoy both in and out of the bedroom OR is this a couple you feel the need for intimacy with on a much deeper emotional level, not just as friends? If you answer just as close friends well then you are a swinger........however if you lean towards anything on the emotional/love side then you fall into the category of being a Polyamorous.

The emotional level is the distinction that separates swinging from polyamory. There are lots of swingers who have close friends that they are exclusive with, even long term, but they think of them as nothing more than close friends. Polyamorous relationships can involve 2, 3, 4 or more different relationships, one is always a primary and usually long term, the others are secondary and can be long term or short term. But every relationship is rooted in an intimate and emotional attachment (love).

It would be my guess that you are probably just a swinger. We don't want to start categorizing people and their experiences for them however, we felt it might be helpful to explain this in an easy manner for thinking about if you may or may not be a Poly Swinger. Hope this helps............


The Other Mrs. Menage

[JTcamp05]

That makes sense I suppose one could say "love" can develop over time if you were a swinger regularly spending time with one couple. So its probably best not to make classifications or groups of people.

I myself don't have a need to be placed into one group or the other, sometimes seems a little confusing that in such an open lifestyle there can be so much grouping of people.

You just dont see that in the vanilla world, where lots of people date and mate. I have dated a few ladies over the years and not one is the same. They have things they will or wont do, they are searching for one thing or the other. I can't imagine its unlike the lifestyle crowd, but of course it on a larger scale with mutiple partners desires and wants.

Of course I can see how classifying these groups makes it easier to meet and search out what your looking for at that moment in time. I do see your point, in the meantime we will just keep doing what we enjoy.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by Menage_a_Trois

Swingers who are "poly friendly" ( a.k.a. Poly Friendly Swingers) do NOT fall into this over lap, they are SWINGERS pure and simple.

It's an interesting distinction. It seemed to me, from the discussions about the subject right before this forum started, that there are swingers who actually feel or believe "poly friendly" are NOT swingers, or at least, "risky players". Also, there are a lot of "poly friendly" swingers and people who don't define themselves as "poly" but are appealed by the idea of developing feelings with swinger partners, who didn't had the chance to talk about this in the rest of the Board and bring into surface after those discussions.

"Developing feelings" doesn't seem to be enough to define someone as poly-something, since for your definition, those feelings are required to be referred as "love", even when we could spend hours discussing what love is and isn't about (and, I have the impression that my definition is pretty far from yours). Yet, most swingers not only WANT to avoid "love", they also want to avoid "developing feelings" of any sort.

I appologize, but I have to tell you, IMO, you shriked down too much the overlaping area, and in your last post it became evident why we disagree.

Certainly I am not poly-something under your definition (or I was while we had our triad and now that we're two again) but I guess it'd be a matter of numbers and not of ideas. I thought the whole point was to integrate people missunderstanding each other points of view, and not to make a poly island in the middle of the Board.

I guess I should keep discussing "poly-friendly" stuff somewhere else but here.

[JustAskJulie]

If you're POLY and you know it clap your hands....

Seriously, I think in the end (for purposes of this forum at least) it's not that we (on this site anyway) are trying to define people are classify everyone as poly or not poly. If you feel that you are poly, so be it. If you don't feel you are poly fine. Classify yourself. It's not the purpose or the desire of this site to classify people, the purpose and the desire behind creating this forum was not to classify people as poly or not poly, but to give those WHO FEEL THEY ARE POLY a place to discuss those issues related to such.

[Menage_a_Trois]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

If you're POLY and you know it clap your hands....

Clap , Clap , CLAP

[JP51]