OK...ya got me int'rest'd...

[DBL D]

Love Doctor and TourtouredSoul have brought up the idea of poly. Maybe that is what TS is looking for, I'm not sure. I was going to post this as a reply to LD in TS's thread but thought it would be better to start a new one.

About ployamourous relationships...

As a poly member (Right term?):

1) Do you not play with anyone else after forming your poly relationship?

2) Doesn't it take time to decide whether you are into a couple enough to consider poly? I mean you don't just say, "yeah, let's poly!" do you?

3) What are the reasons you want poly? The safe sex aspect? The closeness? The Drama? Seems like there would be a lot of that x two.

4) What's the difference between poly and having strong feelings for your partners?

I'm guess I'm just looking for reasons or answers as to why a couple would consider poly over swinging? Is it a natural progression?

Hope to hear a lot of informative answers...

Male D

[Concupiscence]

I would posit that polyamory feeds an intellectual/emotional/psychological hunger that might exist in an otherwise traditional relationship. Swinging does not really allow for a commitment to another's wellbeing, while poly does. No one person can be everything for another and often parts of our identity are voluntarily suppressed or given up on because our partner is uninterested or unable to express that part. For instance, I love horses and riding but my husband finds it to be a miserable activity. I don't seriously entertain the idea of owning horses anymore because it would take away from the other activities and goals that we do enjoy sharing. Having another partner who would enjoy sharing the responsibilities and joys of owning horses would fulfill my desire without requiring my husband's assistance or participation. This is a simple example but I have long been able to see the benefits of polyamory. I am aware of the pitfalls but those exist regardless of the type of relationship.

[sereneiders]

Concuspiscence gave us an interesting point. I agrgree, but let's answer Mr. D questions.

First, I'd have to say I don't think of ourselves as "poly", I mean, it isn't something that we activelly pursuit. Just we don't deprive ourselves from the feelings that could develop between sexual partners, perhpas because we believe it is unrealistic to expect to be able to control your feelings, and once you face them... what are you expected to do? break appart from this partner, and since you do it because you realized you developed feelings, you'd hurt yourself in the process? And notice we're talking about hurting yourself "preventively", before... hurting yourself inside your marriage, something that may or may not happen, but we don't know, because we chopped the tree from the root before knowing how it'd grow.

In any case, I feel I have no right to ask my wife to hurt herself just to prevent her or me to be EVENTUALLY hurted, moreover when I don't believe our relationship could be broken from something like this.

In the other hand, we had those polyamoral relationships with two other women, and we tought of this as "she being OUR girlfriend", so we've seeen ourselves, our marriage, as just ONE entity.

Originally Posted by DBL D

1) Do you not play with anyone else after forming your poly relationship?

We're swingers AND "poly-friendly". We wouldn't accept from a poly-partner (if the term fits) a demmand for an exclusivity that we don't demmand to each other inside our marriage. The bonds and commitments inside our marriage comes first, and we wouldn't allow a third one to ask for a more strict commitment than the one we two already have.

Indeed, we played with others, some times with our girlfriend, some times alone, ands since she's a swinger herself (she was married before and by then they were swingers), she did it on her own without us as well.

So, safe sex was an issue as it is with any other swinging partner: condoms required to play.

Originally Posted by DBL D

2) Doesn't it take time to decide whether you are into a couple enough to consider poly? I mean you don't just say, "yeah, let's poly!" do you?

I guess you find out a growing friendship and at some point you ask yourself questions about the bonds you developed, and you realize you're inside it without even noticing. It isn't something like, some day you wake up and you "plan" to turn a relationship into a poly one, and once the parties agree in the plan, you change your behavior in some way. You keep doing what you did before, perhaps allowing the parties to express more openly those feelings by means of words like "love". But if you think of it, it's exactly what happens when you develop a vanilla relationship from the scratch... as it evolves you reach a point where you know there's something there, you may be afraid of using the word "love", and the same happens to your partner, but at some point you dare to tell her you love her and take the risk of dealing with the reaction. Of course, before this point you talked a lot, about a lot of things, as to have a clue that you two are in the same page, or at least, reading the same book. You wouldn't say a lady in your first date that you love her, even when you feel so, because you'd scare her, and you'd avoid developing feelings for someone who isn't interested on doing the same. You need two people to dance tango, and as the relationship evolve you know if everyone is tunning the same radio station.

Originally Posted by DBL D

3) What are the reasons you want poly? The safe sex aspect? The closeness? The Drama? Seems like there would be a lot of that x two.

Mmmm, let me ask... I guess you like to have friends (not that you WANT to, but you wouldn't refuse a friendship worthing your attention), so I'd use the word WANT, too... what are the reasongs you want friends? If you weren't having friends, for sure you'd avoid a lot of drama in your life, but as you find out people who worth enough to have around, you pay the price of the risk of sharing those people's drama. Moreover, it deppends on how you'd define "friendship", but if I consider myself someone's else friend, I expect to be be able to be there for him or her when he/she have a drama.

May be it's a phylosophical question: I believe you cannot open yourself just for the love while attempting to close your doors to the drama, you open the door for both, or close it for both. I preffer to take the risk of leaving the door open. It's more drama prone than having it closed, but the rewards worth the risks. And if you think of it, this is pretty close to what we do as swinger, isn't it? We open ourselves to share our sexuality with other people besides our spouses, we do it knowing there are risks involved, but we also know the rewards worth the risks... and once we're confdent enough about this, we just do it.

However, again the commitment in our marriage is way stronger than any other commitment we may develop in the rest of our life, or with other people. When we talk about drama, it doesn't necesarily mean we'd have a drama INSIDE our marriage because of this, I mean, between us two. We may share our feelings because of the drama of our girlfriend, as you would if your wife have a personal drama that affects you.

After all, It's just that I feel the differentation between love an sex as artificial as I feel the binding between them. Both statements "love is required to have sex", and "love isn't required to have sex" are way too stretched as to reflect what I feel it happens to me when I have sex with someone, or when I love someone. We all stand somewere in between those extremes, some of us closer to one, some closer to the other, and I wouldn't dare to say any of those statements are "the truth".

If you have enough confidence in yoruself, in what you give to your spouse, as to be sure that no one else able to screw her will be able to "steal" her from your side, do you really believe that if she develop feelings towards her playmate, he'd be able to "steal" her from your side? The question isn't as trivial as it seems to be, because if the answer is "yes", then you may not be SO confident. You draw the same limit a vanilla guy would with his wife, regarding having sex with others, but shifted one step further, regarding developing feelings toward orhers. And as we can see (and often see between vanilla people), we don't even require sex to develop feelings for someone: it may happen to you with the coworker sitting 8 hours a day next to you, even when you didn't screwed her, so it isn't clear for me the relationship between "having sex" and the risk of "falling in love" to the point of risking your marriage. The fact is, and we as swingers knows it, that if you have an strong relationship is less likely that this could happen, with or without sex.

Originally Posted by DBL D

4) What's the difference between poly and having strong feelings for your partners?

As for me... none, peharps just openly admitting you have them.

This reminds me of the sadistic question some people use to ask to the kids "who love you the more, your mom or your dad?", you have strong feelings for both, and on top of that you appreciete certain aspects of the relationship you have with one and not with the other, and vice versa, there are so many emotions involved that the word "love" isn't enough to properly capture and express them all, as to try to make a linear scale between "no love" and "love".

Do you love your friends? I do love mines, and I assume the same happens to you, but if I ask you "who do you love the most, your wife or your best friend?", I guess you'd say your wife... and that your friend would feel offended but because it'd be the politically right answer. The fact is, you have strong feelings for both, and the question itself doesn't have too much sense. You feel something for your wife, and feel something different for your friend, and there's no way to compare those feelings in an scale, unles you're being pushed to make it fit to such an scale by someone (the more likely, your wife). But once you realize this question doesn't make sense, the same way that "what's more tasty, an elephant or a plane?" doesn't, you start looking at the entire problem with a really different perspective: you wouldn't ask your wife "who do you love more, me or him?", nor she would ask you "who do you love more, me or her?", because you'd threasure what you wife give to you without comparing it against what she gives to other people (the same way as you wouldn't compare the pleasure she give to you with the one she may give with a swinger partner... you know it isn't a relevant question anymore for you two).

Originally Posted by DBL D

I'm guess I'm just looking for reasons or answers as to why a couple would consider poly over swinging? Is it a natural progression?

I don't know. As for us, it's just that we don't see that huge gap between sex and feelings, but we didn't saw it even before starting swinging. My wife works with her best friend from since they were in high school, and they were a couple during all those years, they broke because they wasn't able to live togheter, even when they both admit they love each other to death, so they keep working togheter anyway. I don't care, nor I would ask if she loves him more than me. I know I am fulfilled with the love she give to me, and that's all I REALLY need and ask for, and for as long as I have my share, it's pointless to try to "understand" who she love the more. I know this was this way before dating her the first time, and that this will be the way from then and on, and it was ok for me by then and by now. I just don't see at wich point in our relationship I would start asking something I didn't so far and whose answer I don't require, nor why I'd do that. Moreover, I don't have the right to ask her to "avoid loving him"... better say, I know I could (because we talked about this, and she oferred to give up on him for our commitment, which I refused), but this would be like chopping her arm, and I wouldn't harm her this way (and less if just to "prevent" an eventual damage that so far, didn't happen).

I guess for us the question of "loving other people" was "solved" way before solving the question of "having sex with other people", and because of this it's that we feel so odd or artificial to start enforcing a "no love" rule when swinging, so, I'd say, if there was some sort of "natural progression" here for us, it happend in the oposite way than the one you're suggesting.

But again, we swing for fun, we don't purstuit poly relationships, it's just that we wouldn't deprive us from encouraging the feeling development nor from enjoy those feelings, should them bring to surface, and the other people is in the same page than us.

[ANGEDKY(mr)]

Very interesting opic M.D., I may I would like to add one more question.

Without getting into the personal side (unless you choose to share) would you do it again and Why? What particular good outweighs the negative for a repeat dive into the Poly side?

OK I lied, that was 3, sorry!

[DBL D]

Thanks to all you guys for answering my queries.

I was under the impression that poly was some kind of a different thing from swinging (which it is) but that they weren't compatible. Now I think I see you can have both types of relationships. It's up to the couples involved.

One of the couple who has expressed interest in us also mentioned poly in their profile followed by a ?. We take that to mean that they are open to that kind of coupling. I think it's worth exploring but it would seem to be fraught with much more drama than the normal swinging relationship. We still like the idea of meeting new people and aren't wanting to become exclusive with anyone, although we have couples we see that we wouldn't turn down because of that desire.

I can't answer your questions though ANGEDKY(mr) Surrender .

Male D

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by DBL D

Thanks to all you guys for answering my queries.

I was under the impression that poly was some kind of a different thing from swinging (which it is) but that they weren't compatible. Now I think I see you can have both types of relationships. It's up to the couples involved.

One of the couple who has expressed interest in us also mentioned poly in their profile followed by a ?. We take that to mean that they are open to that kind of coupling. I think it's worth exploring but it would seem to be fraught with much more drama than the normal swinging relationship. We still like the idea of meeting new people and aren't wanting to become exclusive with anyone, although we have couples we see that we wouldn't turn down because of that desire.

I can't answer your questions though ANGEDKY(mr) Surrender .

Male D

Well, I cannot talk in behalf of every poly-friendly couple, but I guess it's much the same than what happens between vanilla people when they date. They date someone, they may or may not purstuit a lonng, settled relationsip, and it's likely that they take it as something to do just for fun, so they take this attitude and if there is a "click", eventually they may choose to take the relationship more seriously.

I suppose this couple profile reflects this attitude. They want to play with other couples and, just in case the other couple share the expectation, warns them about being open to a poly relationship, but they know the people they meet may not be poly-friendly (and they may even scare just from mention the chance), so they do it for fun, and then, "let's see".

Anyway, you're right, it's more drama prone than "just swinging", or at least, it's a good first impression. I mean, since we believe feelings aren't as easy to set appart from sex as most of us like to think, I ask myself if the "just swinging" attitude isn't an underestimation for such a risk. I'll borrow this from the X Files, but... "the risk is out there", wheter you're swinger or not, wheter you're open to it or not. You may bump against a swinger's couple who seems to be fine, and in the middle of the action something happens and you find yourself being dragged into some sort of drama. Perhaps if we were less likely to scare of drama, we may look at this in some other way., like accepting the risk exists even when we do our best to avoid it (something that you'd do anyway, without caring if you're vanilla, swinger or poly).

As a side note, I tought of this before when answering your questions but now it seems more relevant. I wonder if there are cultural differences between us that may affect the way we deal with drama. I don't know how many poly are among the swingers in my country, but I've seen them around (let say, at swingers clubs), and no one freaks out.

Here we trend to be more settled people, I mean, we don't use to move from city to city along our life, we have our family around, and we have the chance to pick frienships that will last longer than the ones you develop while thinking of the chance of moving on again. In the US, it's often common that your neighborhs become your friends, something that doesn't happen here: you "collect" friends and most of them keep being around you, and at last, this turns into a "social safety network" where you can rely on more people around you, distributing the "drama load" between a lot of people, so you drama doesn't affect them as badly as it would if you were relying just in some few guys.

The drama isn't as ill seen as I perceive it is in this board. I mean, my impression is that most forum members think it's gross to share your drama with most of the people around them, even if friends (neighborhs, lifestylers), and that no one have the "right" to throw you his/her drama over your shoulders. While in here, I expect people to share their drama with me, even if they were not friends, and I have the right to decline to take the share and it it oke becuase there are someone else in the "network" who will do it anyway. So, I perceive a more relaxed attitude towards the whole drama thing around me, and I suspect this have to do with the attitude towards the poly thing.

[WesternSwing]

Having been in a quasi-poly relationship (well, Mrs. WS with a single friend) and knowing other poly couples here is my answers.

Originally Posted by DBL D

Love Doctor and TourtouredSoul have brought up the idea of poly. Maybe that is what TS is looking for, I'm not sure. I was going to post this as a reply to LD in TS's thread but thought it would be better to start a new one.

About ployamourous relationships...

As a poly member (Right term?):

1) Do you not play with anyone else after forming your poly relationship?

We did, but I've know those that cut it off with others. Usually though it has been the third in the poly relationship who cuts it off with others, not the primaries in the poly couple themselves.

2) Doesn't it take time to decide whether you are into a couple enough to consider poly? I mean you don't just say, "yeah, let's poly!" do you?

Although the idea seems great, and we've known poly foursomes, usually it is a threesome, and it seems to develop over a period of time, just like a regular relationship between two people.

3) What are the reasons you want poly? The safe sex aspect? The closeness? The Drama? Seems like there would be a lot of that x two.

We've seen drama in poly relationships. Jealousy is something that can develop really easy, and sometimes break-ups (like in non-poly relationships) can be messy. I think many like the closeness aspect of it. I know that when Mrs. WS was infatuated (for a lack of better term at this point in my brain process) with this single guy, it was the thing that was opposite of me. I'm much the thinker and educated type, he was more, as she put it, the caveman type. We both filled different roles and different needs in her life.

4) What's the difference between poly and having strong feelings for your partners?

I think the difference is when you act on those strong feelings and actually develop a relationship.

I'm guess I'm just looking for reasons or answers as to why a couple would consider poly over swinging? Is it a natural progression?

I don't know if it's a natural progression, because it takes a different mindset then swinging, but I think many are more poly than they'd like to admit, especially those that are looking for "friends first" over just a roll-in-the-hay. We have a group of people we swing with most often and we've developed more then just a casual relationship with these people. We've become close friends, all of us. We like to call them "our tribe". I wouldn't give-up any of these people for the world. They have come to mean more to us they just good sex.

Mr. WS

[WesternSwing]

Originally Posted by ANGEDKY(mr)

Very interesting opic M.D., I may I would like to add one more question.

Without getting into the personal side (unless you choose to share) would you do it again

Most definitely.

and Why? What particular good outweighs the negative for a repeat dive into the Poly side?

It's hard to explain, but the fact that although we'd like to believe that one person could fulfill everything we need in our lives emotionally, mentally, and physically, the fact is, it just isn't true. That is why we have friends. I think many poly relationships fill these voids without being a threat to the primary relationship. Seems counterintuitive to swinging, but in many ways it runs parallel to it. I think that like I have said before, there is a pretty sizable crossover in the swinging and poly world, many just don't want to label it as such.

Mr. WS

[ANGEDKY(mr)]

I can't answer your questions though ANGEDKY(mr)

Thats cool, I was actually just jumping on your bandwagon and piggybacking some additional thoughts.


Seren & W.S.,
Thanks for the insight. I'll post a follow up in a while, for now I just want to chew on it and organize my thoughts

[JP51]

I can understand the poly world. We have this relationship with another couple, she as someone stated is a horse person, ditto me. Her hubby is not a rider, my wife is a rider too. Her hubby and my wife both love to do the grow stuff in the garden, I could care less as does his wife. So, it the relationship more than sex, yes, is it health and welfare? I think it is, I know that if anything happend to any of us the other three would be present to handle the fallout, and make sure the other one is taken care of. Do we swing with other couples, yes, safe sex always. With the poly couple, no on the safe sex, do they swing with others? nope... are we moving to a exclusive relationship? Ask me after the Oct trip to Desire....that will be the telling event I think.