Warning: Potentially Dangerous Topic!

[EmpyreanPleasur]

Both for the board and in real life!

After reading another thread, this topic came to mind and maybe it's been discussed extensively on here...if so, please direct me to it and we don't have to rehash what's already been said!

So..here goes...

The line between swinging and polyamory can become blurred. Now I know that a lot of swingers will disagree with me, but it really depends on what you consider "polyamory".

My point is that if you have an ongoing relationship with friends whom you play with, aren't you likely to cross that line and develop a somewhat polyamorous relationship with them? Not to say that you will fall OUT of love with your S.O. or to say that anyone would take their place or become more important to you than your S.O. but don't you think it's likely to happen if we find and cultivate the long term special friendships most of us say we are looking for within the lifestyle?

My first experience turned into polyamory without our ever realizing it. In fact, it was my husband who pointed it out to me when he and I first met - he was already active in the lifestyle for years before that himself.

I was part of a triad with another couple and over the course of a year, we all became "best buds" ...doing everything together on weekends and special occasions, including our children on non-lifestyle gatherings, etc. We were friends and confidants, and provided support to each other when we had problems. We didnt' realize it at the time, but we were definitely closer than just friends or "f*ck buddies" as we referred to it.

Can any of you see this happening with your relationships or are you convinced it not only woulnd't happen but if it did you would pull the plug on that friendship immediately as you feel it's too dangerous and threatens your primary relationship?

[Just_us49]

Good topic! We started out saying we didn't want to be friends, we wanted to F**k. Now we see the positive side of friends first.

Then we met a couple recently that we really clicked with and I start wondering about the whole long term relationship thing myself. The sex gets better with each time, but I'm sure the feelings would get stronger too.

They made a comment to us that they NEVER swing more than twice with a couple. So maybe they've already been down that road and didn't like it....

-D

[good times]

I can't see this happening to us, and while we have become friends with some of our play partners we haven't developed any feelings for them beyond that.

I think a lot of it has to do with your mindset, when you make vanilla friends this rarely seems to happen. I might think my buddies wife is hot, but in my mind she is my buddies wife so emotional feelings never even cross my mind. And the sex we have with others is just fun sex, nothing emotional about it, at least for me their isn't. I may be different than other people but whenever I developed emoptional feelings for a woman in the past I had to want to first. And since I don't want to develope those feelings with my play partners their is very little chance they will just crop up on their own.

[EmpyreanPleasur]

when you make vanilla friends this rarely seems to happen.

I initially thought this was a very good point...though after I gave it some more thought, I realized that this does happen for me with my vanilla friends too.

My best friend (female) and dearest friend in the world is someone I love. Of course, it's not the same as with my husband, but it is MUCH deeper than it is with other friends.

Also, I have male and female friends whom I've known for years, through all sorts of life experiences - divorces, death, financial problems, illness. People I cried and laughed and celebrated with - whom I can honestly say that I not only love, but would feel a deep horrible pain to have them cut out of my life in any way.

btw...I've never had any physical intimacy with any of these people.

[good times]

Originally Posted by EmpyreanPleasur

Also, I have male and female friends whom I've known for years, through all sorts of life experiences - divorces, death, financial problems, illness. People I cried and laughed and celebrated with - whom I can honestly say that I not only love, but would feel a deep horrible pain to have them cut out of my life in any way.

I understand what you are saying but isn't that kind of love still different than "falling in love" with someone. I also have friends I love very much but it is more of a paternal kind of love than the lustful romantic type of love I have for my wife.

[RNDNV]

Great topic Empy, we could wax on philosophically for days on this, and we have found that there are as many ways to play the lifestyle as there are people. Personally, I am of the Utopian swing camp that sees swinging as an essential component (but not exclusive) in forwarding myself in life both interpersonally and emotionally, but also spiritually as well. Frankly, this stuff is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and done right, I believe you can come to be "in love" with everyone you get the gift to party with, and the friendships can be the best there are.

Life is meant to be lived without any limits whatsoever so long as the journey does no harm to anyone else or yourself. Therefore, to answer your question, at least from my perspective, there is no limitation as to how deeply you can love your fellow play partners.

There is a common misconception that love is finite and that if you love another you somehow take away from someone else (like your own spouse). This is utter hogwash. There are a variety of intricate and historical societal pressures that program all of us to think of love is scarcity terms. However, I would contend that love is much like uranium in a Breeder reactor, and the more energy that is produced, the more uranium (or love) you end up with. For those of you who don't know nuclear physics, a Breeder reactor (this is a very simplified explanation by the way) starts with one part of uranium, lots of energy (ie: electricity) is produced, and you are left with two parts of usable uranium, therefore, the energy is inexhaustable. Just like the uranium, love in the context of free love, swinging, polyamorous relationships, etc., is also infinite.

Well, I will let you all chew on that for a bit, but if you have any specific questions for me on how to attain higher beingness through swinging, I will be glad to answer them.

Love you all, Mr. RNDNV (your resident swing guru... )

[Just_us49]

Originally Posted by good times

I can't see this happening to us, and while we have become friends with some of our play partners we haven't developed any feelings for them beyond that.

That's my feelings at this point too. We can play and become friends and that is all. But once in a while I think "would I be OK with my wife going to their house without me?" (or something similar) I wouldn't think twice with vanilla friends but this seems different.

Maybe just my insecurity...

-D

[EmpyreanPleasur]

see, I feel much like RNDNV in that I believe we are capable of loving more than one person, just as we can love our spouse and love our children, but each is quite different.

My soul mate is my soul mate but I do believe I can love others without threatening that relationship. I dont HAVE to love anyone else, and I"m not LOOKING for that, but it wouldn't have to change anything in my primary relationship if it happens so I'm not afraid of it or trying to avoid it.

I think if we have friends that we share not only sex with but all other aspects of friendship, then we are more likely to open our hearts to them and unless you are the type to limit your encounters (say twice and never again) then there is a possibility it will happen.

My husband has a very dear friend he has never had sex with...never done anything more than talk and kiss. However, they say "I love you" all the time and she now has taken to saying it to me as well. It just seems natural to me.

[xxoticangel]

I have debated replying to this thread because our opinion of friends and swinging is different from most on the boards and has pi$$ed some people off.

We always maintain an emotional distance with our play partners. We both feel that even the best of intentions can go bad and crossing that emotional line and letting a fuck buddy get emotionally attached is a very bad thing. We are not as cold as we were in the begining. Our first few single male partners were jokingly refered to as "dildo with a pulse". As our marriage has matured we have evolved enough for a type of friendship to develop to a point but we still stop at vanilla solo meetings or sleeping with a partner after the fun is over.

[intuition897]

Good topic Empyrean. I think swinging and polyamory are two distinctly different camps. Swingers have chosen to separate love and sex and engage in responsible non-monogamy. Polyamorists choose to retain the love/sex connection and engage in responsible non-monogamy. To quote one of our swinging friends, it's whatever blows your hair back. Personally for us, it's a better fit to separate love and sex. This means that everyone is there for one reason: sex. Because it's fun! It's hot. It beats the hell out of golf any day! Now let's use a golfing analogy. You don't need to love the person you play golf with in order to have fun, and it makes the game SO much more enjoyable if you're playing with someone who's good at it and enjoying himself too (who needs the hassle of temper tantrums, sour grapes, pouting and breaking their clubs over their knee??). And if you discover that your partners are really remarkable people and you feel like pursuing a friendship after the fact, that's great! You've got yourself regular playing partners that you totally enjoy being around. However if we notice that someone is beginning to pry at the edges of our primary relationship in any way, we need to evaluate that. I married my husband. I did choose to be with him until I died and be an emotional support and resource for him. We don't have any interest in developing other relationships that compare to the kind of relationship we share. Too complicated and too much work. We put enough energy into our own relationship that I have no idea where others get the energy to invest in more than one! I dunno. The line's not that blurred for us, really, but I can see how it could be for many.

[Just_us49]

Originally Posted by intuition897

Personally for us, it's a better fit to separate love and sex. This means that everyone is there for one reason: sex. Because it's fun! It's hot. It beats the hell out of golf any day! Now let's use a golfing analogy. You don't need to love the person you play golf with in order to have fun, and it makes the game SO much more enjoyable if you're playing with someone who's good at it and enjoying himself too (who needs the hassle of temper tantrums, sour grapes, pouting and breaking their clubs over their knee??). And if you discover that your partners are really remarkable people and you feel like pursuing a friendship after the fact, that's great! You've got yourself regular playing partners that you totally enjoy being around. However if we notice that someone is beginning to pry at the edges of our primary relationship in any way, we need to evaluate that. I married my husband. I did choose to be with him until I died and be an emotional support and resource for him. We don't have any interest in developing other relationships that compare to the kind of relationship we share. Too complicated and too much work. We put enough energy into our own relationship that I have no idea where others get the energy to invest in more than one! I dunno.

Well said and pretty much where we are at. M and I talked about some of this last night and we had a conversation very similar.

-D

[Ssugarlips]

Originally Posted by EmpyreanPleasur

see, I feel much like RNDNV in that I believe we are capable of loving more than one person, just as we can love our spouse and love our children, but each is quite different.

My soul mate is my soul mate but I do believe I can love others without threatening that relationship. I dont HAVE to love anyone else, and I"m not LOOKING for that, but it wouldn't have to change anything in my primary relationship if it happens so I'm not afraid of it or trying to avoid it.

This is our philosophy as well. My husband and I have chosen to be life companions together and expect to grow old together.

We have accepted that we will most likely come to love our long-term partners. We take our time selecting lovers; we see these special people alone a good portion of the time and build relationships with them. I know his lovers; he knows mine and sometimes we share lovers. Love, respect, and clear communication keeps us happy.

If either one of us (husband/wife) feels neglected or pushed to the back, then we sit down, talk things out, and if necessary, take a break from our lovers. We've taken a break once for a couple of months. Our other partners were very supportive of our decision during that time. For us, acknowledging the real affection that can grow only makes the sex better...with our lovers and between us, too.

Our lovers know that we don't threaten their other relationships, either.

[Dynamar]

Originally Posted by RNDNV

There is a common misconception that love is finite and that if you love another you somehow take away from someone else (like your own spouse). This is utter hogwash. There are a variety of intricate and historical societal pressures that program all of us to think of love is scarcity terms. However, I would contend that love is much like uranium in a Breeder reactor, and the more energy that is produced, the more uranium (or love) you end up with.

Dito Word to this! And amen. I've always thought this.

[darling]

We went from first swinging with strangers at a club, to soft swinging only, to now swinging exclusively with one couple. We are friends and enjoy doing things together outside of swinging, but I would never consider confiding in the male half or would I want my husband to confide in her. We also never meet except if all of us are together. I do talk to her seperately and am constantly careful to not become a threat to anyone. Her and I have had long discussions on that and she feels the same as us. It helps that all of us have been married over 20+ years and have learned hard lessons from past swinging experiences.

I have found we are so much more comfortable with this couple since we've talked extensively and know what each others likes and dislikes are and feel so comfortable.

[EmpyreanPleasur]

OK...I'm not opposed to the concept of polyamory, but that is not what I'm saying really happens here and perhaps I shouldn't have used that word.

I'm asking if we don't think we "love" our regular swinging partners in ways we probably never thought we would have when we first started this.

I wouldn't ever consider confiding in a swinging friend about serious problems, and I can't imagine anyone becoming more important to me than my husband. He is first and last and everything in between.

In other words...if he was gone tomorrow, my world would be shattered. The thought of going on without him seems lonely, empty and desolate.

Now, the thought of forever losing a close friend in the lifestyle, while devastating because I do, in some way love them, would not be the end of my world BECAUSE I still have the most important person in my life by my side - my husband.

OR...do people try to avoid even THAT much of a closeness with lifestyle friends for fear of damaging their primary relationship?

I hope I explained myself better here.