Poll: Are You Willing to go Bareback?

[beachguyz]

In our first experience, I wore a condom with my partner, my wife went bareback.

The other time I went bareback, don't know about the wife.

[herpob]

"Then the attorneys in our group drew up our covenants or by-laws. We hashed out what everyone wanted, desired, and expected. Once they were fine tuned we all signed contracts binding us legally to certain rules and behavior. Testing is a MAJOR part of it. We trust everyone in our group and we are exclusive, yet we still test regularly.

As GoNatural mentioned, how you present it to others matters - think it through and do not have unprotected sex until you know you can trust them." herpob

Originally Posted by Malachista

I think this is the line were careful crosses the line to overkill

Also: How legally binding is it really? Would you really go in front of a judge with a contract about a group like that is someone would act unfitting?

“How legally binding & would your ever go in front of a Judge?”

Well have you ever heard of a Complaint and Consent Judgment? Very binding! Maybe overkill who knows, but as one of the 7 females it helps me feel safer and more relaxed. As far as the other ladies – they say, "Ditto!"

All I can say is, “To each his/her own.” What works for us might not work for you. It is working wonderfully for us. I teach but also counsel and I see to many couples where disease is the predominant concern AND hindrance to sexual openness. Where one mate has contracted something and the other is clean it really puts a damper on the relationship emotionally as well as physically. Why not avoid this at all costs? Yes you can remain monogamous and hope your mate never had anything to begin with or you can go to great links to find what else might work for you and others like yourself. That is all we did.

Do I really have to keep reminding everyone of shy_tn_gal’s post on disease statistics?

Originally Posted by BiloxiCouple

I hope this post was about 90% sarcasm or at best wishing for a perfect situation.

I did bold two statements which seem to contradict each other in the fact that one groups wants protection and yet there is still some distrust and the other group that shows trust without protection. Maybe someone else can explain these two statements better than I can???

I feel it boils to down to what level of risk management you are willing to accept.

No mam or sir – so sarcasm here. And the arrangement is working well for us.

As far as the two statements contradicting – they do not. I apologize I didn’t think elaborate on it.

Testing regularly was placed in the agreement at the very beginning; we all adhere to it, no questions about it, not a problem.

Over time everyone became more trusting and used less & less protection and yet we still adhere to the agreement, testing is a part of that agreement. There are so many bugs out there that you might have but the test might not show it for years. It would be nice to know and then everyone can get tested for it as well. I know a couple where after 20 years the husband just found out he has Hep-C. The only thing he has had were blood transfusions after a severe wreck. Thank goodness his wife never contracted it. He is getting treated for it and they have protected sex no where as before they did not. Things can happen out of your control, you know?

The only trust concerns I had early on was more about everyone getting used to the new arrangement and not forgetting or slipping up. I asked the other ladies and 4 agreed with me that their concern was that early on someone our newly formed group might be with a person not in our group and not be as careful as they should (alcohol causes some dumb things to happen). 3 of the ladies admitted that they were not sure that all the men would adhere to everything.

All of us had multiple partners outside the group and it took time for us to transition into an exclusive group. We discussed it for quite a while before the group was officially formed. It didn’t just happen over night. Then it took more time to make certain (as we could) that we were all clean and disease free. Then even more time to get comfortable with bare sex. We still use protection for anal sex, oral/anal, and even on the toys (makes for easier clean up) and at times we do not. Vaginal sex is almost always bare, oral is ALWAYs bare with the exception of the oral/anal I mentioned. We openly exchange cum and vj/pj.

I hope I explained that well enough.

[Malachista]

Originally Posted by herpob

“How legally binding & would your ever go in front of a Judge?”

Well have you ever heard of a Complaint and Consent Judgment? Very binding! Maybe overkill who knows, but as one of the 7 females it helps me feel safer and more relaxed. As far as the other ladies – they say, "Ditto!"

No, I have not heard of Complaint and Consent Judgment.
But then we also don't get coffee-cups that warn for hot stuff inside

And how is this contract making you feel safer?
Everyone can have unprotected sex with someone else without everyone ever finding out that they have broken the contract...

I know a couple where after 20 years the husband just found out he has Hep-C. The only thing he has had were blood transfusions after a severe wreck. Thank goodness his wife never contracted it. He is getting treated for it and they have protected sex no where as before they did not. Things can happen out of your control, you know?

You (and they) may also do some research on how Hep C gets transmitted

[herpob]

CDC Division of Viral Hepatitis - Hepatitis C FAQs for the Public

Can hepatitis C be spread through sexual contact?
Yes, but the risk of transmission from sexual contact is believed to be low. The risk increases for those who have multiple sex partners, have a sexually transmitted disease, engage in rough sex, or are infected with HIV. More research is needed to better understand how and when hepatitis C can be spread through sexual contact.


It's sort of like playing Russian Roulette and they don’t even know for certain how many bullets are in the gun…




As far as how it makes us feel safer - for me it because of the repercussions and restitution. If anyone does want to go outside the group they merely have to let us know, leave the group and have at it. If they do as you propose and someone does catch something we can only hope the next person who gets tested and finds out they have caught whatever tells everyone one before anyone else gets infected. Then track it backwards and we find out how strong the legal agreement is. If it works then they pay for their stupidity.

[rpu3]

Well have you ever heard of a Complaint and Consent Judgment? Very binding! Maybe overkill who knows, but as one of the 7 females it helps me feel safer and more relaxed. As far as the other ladies – they say, "Ditto!"

Now, I'm just a lowly paralegal, not an attorney, but last time I checked, a complaint is nothing more than the initial document filed with the Clerk of Courts to initiate the court proceeding which states the issue and its legal basis. It doesn't bind anyone to anything. Sure, your contract might be attached to it as an exhibit, but the complaint itself isn't binding.

The consent order is a voluntary agreement, but carries the same weight as a court-issued judgment decree.

I think Malachista's point was, are you really going to file a lawsuit, which is a public record, and take this before a judge? I don't do contract work as a paralegal, thank goodness, but honestly, is this kind of contract enforceable? I mean, is bareback sex with someone other than your spouse really what the law considers legal consideration, and are the conditions of your contract enforceable? Is it even something that can be contracted in the first place? Seriously - it's not a car loan, a purchase agreement or a non-compete agreement.

Overkill? If it ends up in a courtroom, I say yes. I hope the threat of dragging people's sex lives into a public forum is worth everyone feeling safe. If it's working for you, fine. But I'd hate to have my sex life contracted and would further hate my sex life being on display should someone actually decide to sue because of the contract terms - especially if it's just going to get thrown out because it wasn't an enforceable contract in the first place due to the basis of the contract - sex.

But, as always, whatever works for you.

[BiloxiCouple]

Originally Posted by herpob

VERY well put!!! I agree 100% - I would much rather have a guy in me without a condom! However before we developed our exclusive group condoms were the norm, sorry but you cannot trust people to be 100% forthright or accurate about their sexual past when you first meet them. Once our group begin to form we focuses on the disease issue heavily. Everyone was repeatedly tested and had to provide the results immediately for the group to review. Everyone gave theri entire sexual history for the others to review. Then the attorneys in our group drew up our covenants or by-laws. We hashed out what everyone wanted, desired, and expected. Once they were fine tuned we all signed contracts binding us legally to certain rules and behavior. Testing is a MAJOR part of it. We trust everyone in our group and we are exclusive, yet we still test regularly.

I am very sorry to hear that people in this lifestyle are not open to testing - please please please pay attention to the statistics shy_tn_ gal posted, they are VERY Real!!! You may play now and have fun but you will pay the price later and cause many others to pay as well, even your dear loved ones. Please do not be selfish, get tested regularly and if you catch something don't spread it, find alternate ways to have sex beside unprotected.

As GoNatural mentioned, how you present it to others matters - think it through and do not have unprotected sex until you know you can trust them. Honestly now, do really want body parts eaten up with cancer and rotting within mere years?

I actually didn't realize this was something that you were actually doing. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

I can understand writing up a contract so everyone in the group knows the rules. Which is a very good thing. Ya'll did the right thing by going this route. It gives the group a positive sense of security.

But the contract is only as good as the paper it is written on and some people will do what they want anyway. Then is it enforceable in a court of law? Only a judge can decide if it is legally binding. Your attorney's know that.

[Greg & Sheryl]

Originally Posted by BiloxiCouple

But the contract is only as good as the paper it is written on and some people will do what they want anyway. Then is it enforceable in a court of law? Only a judge can decide if it is legally binding. Your attorney's know that.

Writing up a contract is an interesting approach to bareback swinging. We do know a polyamourous lady in Denver who also happens to be a lawyer, so we'll have to ask her for some feedback on the issue of non-monogamy contracts. Perhaps this deserves its own thread?

Originally Posted by herpob

Well have you ever heard of a Complaint and Consent Judgment? Very binding!

We don't know how a complaint and consent judgment differs, but a consent judgement is used to settle a case that is already in litigation. This is just our layperson's opinion, but we figure that if the contract is broken, a lawsuit for breech of contract would have to be filed, and then the court would have to decide if the contract is binding and was indeed breeched. It might be fun to speculate what kind of damages might be awarded!

[herpob]

Great discussion BTW - thx everyone for the input.

Sorry it has sort of gotten away from the original post though...

Originally Posted by BiloxiCouple

I actually didn't realize this was something that you were actually doing. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

I can understand writing up a contract so everyone in the group knows the rules. Which is a very good thing. Ya'll did the right thing by going this route. It gives the group a positive sense of security.

But the contract is only as good as the paper it is written on and some people will do what they want anyway. Then is it enforceable in a court of law? Only a judge can decide if it is legally binding. Your attorney's know that.

You are 100% correct it is only as good as what is proven in court and I pray we never have to go there. I understand it has to be upheld in court for precedence to be established. I am not sure anything like it ever has - who knows??? Maybe our paralegal here - rpu3 - does??? Would be interesting to find out.

Originally Posted by rpu3

Overkill? If it ends up in a courtroom, I say yes. I hope the threat of dragging people's sex lives into a public forum is worth everyone feeling safe.

But, as always, whatever works for you.

Now you are getting it. But what everyone is still missing - it is not a contract to bind people in a group sexually, it is to try to hold everyone accountable as much as possible for their actions.

The agreement holds everyone accountable if they bring a disease into the group, as wives, the other ladies, especially love this. Sorry for the stereotype but husbands overall tend to be more wayward than wives and the agreement has made us ladies feel more comfortable with the other men in the group. As I mentioned when beginning the group it was not as clear how we all felt about each individual – trust is earned and it takes time and you have to have some history with them.

If anyone in the group goes outside the group that is their choice but to not notify the rest of us of the potential risk they put us at is inexcusable. If they were to infect us there are repercussions such as medical and financial restitution, etc. Who knows if a judge would allow it, but I find it hard to believe that if someone under a contract who breaches said contract knowingly and causes harm to another part of the contract, particularly physical harm, could not get the pants sued of off of them. Come on, a person wins millions for coffee being spilled on them and not this?

[herpob]

Originally Posted by Greg & Sheryl

Writing up a contract is an interesting approach to bareback swinging. We do know a polyamourous lady in Denver who also happens to be a lawyer, so we'll have to ask her for some feedback on the issue of non-monogamy contracts. Perhaps this deserves its own thread?We don't know how a complaint and consent judgment differs, but a consent judgement is used to settle a case that is already in litigation. This is just our layperson's opinion, but we figure that if the contract is broken, a lawsuit for breech of contract would have to be filed, and then the court would have to decide if the contract is binding and was indeed breeched. It might be fun to speculate what kind of damages might be awarded!

I agree this subject had taken on a life of its own. It would be great to keep it going and find out more. I barely understand legalities but common sense to me says that yes the breach and the premeditated potential harm to others should warrant a sizable damage award – at least enough to cover one’s medical treatments to deal with whatever bug was passed on.

[spamcatcher]

We prefer bareback. We like the feeling of real skin in our mouths and against our genitals. What's the tactile difference between a dick in a rubber and a realistic dildo?

[n2ez]

Very interesting poll but I don't know if it's just me or what, but I have found near all the long time 30+ year cpls I have been with always want to go bare back? my thinking had always been to be with them for a while first, but find it is the norm with them, I mean they don't even bring the subject up in most cases, some are right up front and tell you we do not like them! is it because I am a married swingoing solo that make them more comfortable or??
Real Swingers Home Page. n2ez

[cocpl2007]

Just an interesting scientific study on condoms:

Condom 'turn offs' among adults: an exploratory st...[Int J STD AIDS. 2008] - PubMed Result

Crosby R, Milhausen R, Yarber WL, Sanders SA, Graham CA.

College of Public Health, University of Kentucky, 121 Washington Avenue, Lexington, KY, USA. crosby@uky.edu

An exploratory study compared the prevalence of multiple types of condom-associated 'turn offs' in men and women. Nearly 2000 people completed a web-based questionnaire. Data were analysed from 464 men and women who reported that condoms had turned them off the last time they were used. Gender differences were not observed for the majority (9) of 15 turn offs. The most common turn offs related to loss of pleasure. For example, more than three-quarters of the men and nearly 40% of the women reported decreased sexual sensation (P = 0.0001). Putting on condoms was reported by 43.2% of the men versus 30.2% of the women (P = 0.02). Smell was a relatively frequent turn off, with about one-third indicating this issue and no significant gender difference (P = 0.32). Turn offs pertaining to arousal and orgasm were also common. Findings suggest that numerous physical and psychological condom turn offs may be experienced by men and women while using male condoms. Although some turn offs differed as a function of gender, there was remarkable similarity between men and women.

[Greg & Sheryl]

Originally Posted by cocpl2007

Just an interesting scientific study on condoms:

Condom 'turn offs' among adults: an exploratory st...[Int J STD AIDS. 2008] - PubMed Result

This pretty much supports our long-time suspicion that the ladies hate condoms just as much as the guys do.

[Aching]

Of course we are. We wouldn't do it any other way!

But not with just anybody, and not on a first date. We expect to get to know and trust the people we would consider having sex with. We both need to like both of them, and have something in common. We also need to discuss at some point their sexual history. Because we are "virgins" we do have a concern, but after much reading, we think the "responsible" people in the lifestyle are generally more discreet and generally more careful, and there is no reason to think that we will contract any disease. But we need to reach that understanding.

Once we have, then it's "go for it all"....complete, unencumbered, natural sex. We don't think anything could be better than that.

We also understand that some people require condoms, and that is perfectly OK. We will just stop there, and say we aren't interested. Just us.