Religion and swinging

[nice_cpl_n_bama]

Hi Everybody,
One of the big issues Laurie and I had to overcome before becoming active in swinging was our religious faith and it's teachings about sex. We spent a good bit of time researching to find that most of the stuff we'd been taught about sex was done for political reasons long ago or in a different culture that doesn't really apply today. This got me thinking. What is the spiritual identity of the swinging community?
Thanks for taking I moment to answer. It will help some research I'm doing.
Thanks,
Jeff

[Spoomonkey]

Well, as one who has posted quite a bit about my faith on the board, my current position is a bit of a one-eighty. My change, though has nothing to do with swinging as much as it has to do with my continued evolution as a person.

...Or is that evolution INTO a person???

Right now - I would say that I am somewhat agnostic. I definitely would say that I no longer consider myself Christian (mostly because of how Christianity has defined itself and sold itself).

But - I will say that having a degree in Bible and twelve years of paid ministry behind me, I completely understand the struggles a person would have reconciling what they have been taught with what they are wrestling with (i.e. swinging).

Personally, as much as I have said on the subject, I ultimately like what Intuition says about it the best, "God has more on His plate than who we have sex with." (Or something to that affect)

Spoomonkey

[nice_cpl_n_bama]

Thanks Spoo!
I'm deciding what to do with my faith right now. I could simply keep attending my church and just keep our other activities quiet. I could move to another denomination with more open views. I could attempt to form a group of like minded Christian people. Lots to think about.....

[Mr. Truelove]

Agnostic and atheism probably should have been different entries, but thats my opinion.

I had a pretty strict christian upbringing, but I am now agnostic.

[nice_cpl_n_bama]

Maybe so although I've heard it said that Agnostics are just chickenhearted Atheists. They don't want to offend the God they think doesn't exist just in case they're wrong.
Just kidding y'all.
In retrospect I should have listed Wiccan and Pagan as their own thing instead of just "Other" but it'll tell me what I want to know.
Thanks for answering.

[Dooode]

Good topic.

I am spiritual, but not of any organized denomination. God does have a place with me and, when done properly, aligns quite well with the swinging lifestyle.
I keep it simple: "God is love." And the attitude of acceptance and tolerance is extremely important.

Sure ain't friggin' easy sometimes tho!

[Mr. Truelove]

Originally Posted by nice_cpl_n_bama

Maybe so although I've heard it said that Agnostics are just chickenhearted Atheists. They don't want to offend the God they think doesn't exist just in case they're wrong.
Just kidding y'all.
In retrospect I should have listed Wiccan and Pagan as their own thing instead of just "Other" but it'll tell me what I want to know.
Thanks for answering.

I just said that because agnostic and atheists are just as different as christians and athiests, and because my prediction was a large number of agnostics/athiests replying.

But I've made polls where I realized I could have changed it a lot afterwards and there just isn't much you can do. =P

I'm not really a chickenhearted athiest. As I first broke away from my church I felt like I might have been an athiest. But all the alternatives in science that we know of have a lot of gaping holes that we just don't know the answers to. (What exactly is gravity?) In the end all I can really say is there is truth in many aspects of Science and religion, and also a lot of unknowns. Perhaps I am in an undecided category, but agnostic fits it pretty close.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by Mr. Truelove

I had a pretty strict christian upbringing, but I am now agnostic.

Ditto! I'm agnostic because I just really don't care enough to define myself. I don't believe in Christianity or religion as a whole, and in the end TO ME it doesn't really matter if there is a god or not. I don't know and I don't claim to know one way or the other. Personally, I think Agnostics are much more realistic than either Atheists or Christians because at least they can say they don't know... whereas both Atheists and Christians claim to know something they really can't know. I guess one thing both sides have in common is FAITH... and I guess us agnostics just don't have any.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by nice_cpl_n_bama

Thanks Spoo!
I'm deciding what to do with my faith right now. I could simply keep attending my church and just keep our other activities quiet. I could move to another denomination with more open views. I could attempt to form a group of like minded Christian people. Lots to think about.....

You might want to take a look at the Liberated Christians Website - http://www.libchrist.com
It's really the best place that I know of for help on trying to merge the two ways of thinking.

[Mr. Truelove]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

I guess one thing both sides have in common is FAITH... and I guess us agnostics just don't have any.

You hit the nail on the head there Julie! Exactly how I feel.

I do believe that in the end, religion is typically a good thing. You have people in the world that can't seem to make the correct choices. Many of them end up living in poverty or worse yet jail. But if a person makes most of his decisions according to the basic values in the bible, then that person should have a better chance at making good decisions. So it is in this aspect that, even as an agnostic, I feel religion is a great thing for society.

On a side note I just watched video earlier where they were poking fun at religion. And one of the people said, "As it is written in the bible, every word of which is true. And we know every word is true because the bible says that the bible is true and if you remember from earlier in this sentence that every word in the bible is true.... "

[WesternSwing]

Mrs. WS and I are Wiccan/Pagan. I add the slash mark because all Wiccans are Pagan, but not all Pagans are Wiccan. Make sense.

We were both raised in Christian denominations, I Greek Orthodox and her Southern Baptist. Both have a great deal of guilt built into them, but the Greeks seems to ignore it better. Mrs. WS battled for many years of our marriage with the guilt instilled upon her by her mother and the Baptist teachings. She was brought-up believing everything below the waist was dirty, which she never really believed, but caused allot of internal conflict for her because everything she was taught and everything she knew to be true were two completely different things.

We both were Pagan when we met, so it worked out well that way. My mom was very much into New Age ideals and drifted herself toward Pagan beliefs, taking me with her in my teens.

Mrs. WS was a practicing Wiccan when we met and I liked the ritual aspect of it as well as the idea of "An ye harm none, do as ye will" ideal. The idea of no religion is the only path and being very accepting of others. I guess I got tired of being angry, feeling guilty, and being critical of others all the time. I am much more relaxed now. It was very easy to blend my already Pagan, Earth-based beliefs into Wiccan.

We don't have any problem reconciling swinging with our faith since in Wiccan/Pagan belief sex, and especially women, are highly revered and a natural part of our being. A passage at Religious Tolerance.org says it best:

Human sexuality: Sexuality is valued, and regarded as a gift of the Goddess and God, to be engaged in with joy and responsibility, and without manipulation. Wiccans generally accept the findings of human sexuality researchers that there are three normal, natural, and unchosen sexual orientations: heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality.

We even have a Sabbat that could be considered a "swingers holiday": Beltane, now known as May Day. This was a Pagan fertility celebration on the last day of April and first day of May. At this time the Earth was coming alive with plants, flowers, baby animals and birds, etc. For the young it was time to meet, flirt, and party, kind of like a prom is now For the older married couples it was a time when they could remove their wedding rings - and the restrictions they imply - for one night.

We are now very comfortable with ourselves and our lives. We take very seriously the idea of "as you harm no others, do as you will" and live our lives as such. This harm could be physical or emotional. And to us, sex between consenting adults is not harmful to anyone.

Mr. WS

[Mike and Jan]

Hey, just did a search on 'Beltane' that Westernswing mentioned. Interesting, very interesting. Sure didn't know that. Here's a link that explains it further, if it's OK to post it;
http://www.wicca.com/celtic/akasha/beltane.htm

I'm an atheist and my wife is agnostic. Works pretty well.

[JTcamp05]

Funny that this topic comes up today..... Without quoting biblical references.....one can start reading Genesis and find out very quickly Abraham giving up his wife to another man passing her off as his sister. Ohhh and by the way the other man is punished who didnt even know he did anything wrong. Abraham packs up he freshly screwed wife and off he goes with all the blessings. I didn't recount this story to argue a point, guess my point is that there are so many storys and they can be taken many different ways. One can argue points for this or that belief and who is to say which is right.

We personally are some what religious, we attend church when we can, we have faith, and belive in the vaule of religion. However we feel comfortable with our choice of lifestyle. One can say you can't have one with the other, but that is not so, to us at least. We know who we are and realize that this wouldnt make us the most popular people in church, but the same time are ok with that.

Like anything else mabye someday we will change or mabye we won't, life is a journey and we decided to enjoy it.

[sexyshelby]

I dito Julie and Mr. Truelove. I was raised Catholic until my teens when we moved overseas and stopped attending church. But for me, even at a young age, I never bought into it. It just didn't seem right to me. Personally, I don't believe in religion.

~SS

[intuition897]

I'll try to keep this post fairly short as I've gone into this at length on other threads, but I just thought I'd voice my view of things.

I am a "practicing Christian" although I use the terms "practicing" and "Christian" lightly. I firmly believe that one's faith is a highly personal part of who they are. Therefore, I do NOT believe that it is any human being's place to judge the beliefs of another. The only time we should ever become involved in that is if that person is harming himself or others with those beliefs. That's where the "practicing" part comes in. I also firmly believe that life is wasted if it is lived solely in pursuit of personal pleasure and happiness, and that meaning in one's life can only be derived from the devotion of one's life to the service of others. The life of a servant. This is all stuff from the Bible.

Now the problem I have with calling myself Christian is much the same as Spoomonkey's. I just don't want to associate myself with something that has gotten such a bad rap. Much like swinging, real Christianity has been lost in the agendas and propaganda of human selfishness, and people believe what they've heard about it...not what they've found out for themselves.

The truth is that Christianity is actually one of the most liberal religions going! As (I think) the apostle Paul said, "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable." This fundamental truth resonates throughout all religions in various wordings. For example in the Wiccan religion (correct me if I'm wrong) it's "Do as ye will, an harm none." In other words, the bottom line is quite simply "Do not do harm!" This means to one's self, to others, or to one's environment. We are supposed to be a positive force on this world, never negative. If everyone just did this, even just once a day, the world would look much different. Because doing good for others is contagious. I've found the high FAR outreaches and outlasts the high of getting what you want for yourself. These are Jesus' teaching for living an abundant, healthy, balanced, joy-filled life.

And for Mr. intuition and I, swinging arises from this teaching. Weird, eh? But it's true. In my desire to live the life of a servant, this means putting off my own insecurities and fears, and trusting my husband with the most precious gift I have: his life. He gave it to me, and it is the most precious thing I own. I say 'own', because it was his gift to me. He has declared that HIS life is devoted in service to MY life. My gift is to give it back to him to use as he pleases. If I keep it - his life, his sexuality - it will stay locked in a little cage because I cannot use it. But if I give it back to him, then it becomes all the more precious because he puts the life back into it. Does anyone understand what I mean? Or am I just babbling here? :P I know it might sound like nonsense, but I know what I'm trying to say. Just not sure if it's coming across right.

So anyway, this is why I don't have a problem with swinging and my faith. God isn't nearly as demanding as people suppose. His yoke is easy and the burden is light, as Jesus said. All he's asking you to do is the right thing, and the right thing is to simply love other people as you love yourself. See other people as God sees them, ignoring what they DO and being concerned for the person locked inside that life that they are living. By doing this you honour God, and he is pleased. He doesn't expect perfection, but He does expect your best effort.

So that's my blurb. No BS, no games...no labels. It just is what it is. I go to a Christian church because it is the closest to what I believe, however, I tend to sit in the back pews and remain somewhat detached from everyone. I do not desire to be "assimilated". I don't need to believe exactly what they believe in order to fellowship with them. If they believe that everyone must have the same beliefs, then I simply stay quiet about my beliefs. I do not want to offend anyone; I just want to be around other people who are devoted to serving God as best they can. I don't know what anyone thinks about that, but I personally don't feel that it's hypocritical for a swinger to walk into a church and say that they are Christian. Not if they truly believe it.

EDIT>> So much for keeping it short.