Swingers are not so open-minded...

[NandTfromCA]

...and so do I. But, there have been some posts regarding the way people swing, or don’t swing, that are negative or softly condescending. As an examples, I posted, “…maybe they are in this just for the fun outfits you get to wear” in reference to people who speak negatively about bed jumpers. There are other posts that are more severe but I don’t want to pick anyone out (I just picked on myself for this example).

Statements often go something like:

“What would be wrong with someone to make them want to ______ ?”

“How could someone ever ______?”

“It just makes me want to laugh when I see someone _______” (insert something that the “someone” in question is pretty serious about)

I was going to give specific examples of times that I feel myself being unnecessarily judgmental about, but I didn’t want this post to come off like a rant. And I’m not refereeing to judgments about people who are clearly hurting others. Even if it limits my personal growth, I choose to continue to make judgments about them (lying, cheating, etc). In this post, I’m referring to the way people interact with others (swinging rules, choosing partners, choosing friends, email etiquette, etc).

N and I both have a firm belief that each person has their own way of approaching life and even though it may be totally different to ours, it is right for them. Even still though, I find myself being irritated by the way people do some things (even when it really doesn’t effect me much, if any). So I wonder if we can we ever be totally non-judgmental? Are we evolutionarily wired to pass judgment?

I'm not looking for justification to feel the way I do…I am trying to grow out of having those feelings. The concept just intrigues me and I wonder how many others have given it some thought (how many others are introspective freaks like me ).

T (Mr.)

[JnCC]

Originally Posted by NandTfromCA

I'm not looking for justification to feel the way I do…I am trying to grow out of having those feelings.

I don't think we ever grow out of "having feelings," nor do I think that not "having feelings" about the things we're intimately involved in is "growth." I DO think we have what some people refer to as "paradigm shifts" which allow us to accept some things more readily, while at the same time, rejecting others.

For example, swingers accept the idea of having sex with people other than their partners, while rejecting (at least more so than the public in general) the idea of having it without their partners knowledge.

Swingers are more likely to accept the notion of having sex with multiple partners, while rejecting the notion that there should be any emotional involvement in it.

How many openly gay or bisexual guys do you know in the vanilla world? Now...how many do you know in this supposedly "liberated" lifestyle?

I sometimes hear swingers referred to as "open minded" or "broad minded." Perhaps they are. Personally, I think the "spectrum" of acceptable or common behaviors in swinging is no wider than for the general public...it's just "shifted over" to one side a little.

[WesternSwing]

I always try to be as non-judgemental as possible. It requires too much energy to do so, and mostly creates negative energy around it. I'll admit there are things I make observations about that make me wonder and go "hmmmm", but like you said, everyone lives as they live, and it's not for me to tell them how to do it any more then I'd want them telling me. "An it harm none, do as ye will."

Mr. WS

[sereneiders]

Mr. T,

I believe we need to be judgamental, allways, not because we were "evolutionarily wired", but because it's "epistemologically wired". It's what we do inside oru mind to gahter and clasify and correlate information. A is grater than B, C is better than D under some criteria but worst under some other criteria, and so forth.

Being totally "non-judgamental" would render ourserves useless to learn or even to think about what's going on around us.

I believe the problem isn't about "not being judgamental", instead of being judgamental but providing the grounds.

The sentence "There's anything able to travel faster than the speed of light" is a judgamental one: we deprive everihing else but light the possibility to travel faster than light.

The proper way to state that would be "Upon the Relativity Theory, there's anything able to travel faster than the speed of light". Now, you say "IF the relativity theory were grounded, then we can deprive everihing else but light the possibility to travel faster than light, OR if there's something else than light travelling faster, then we'd deprive the theory from it grounds.

It doesn't bother me to read judgamental statements, as long as they're tied with the groundings.

[fun4Ds]

sometimes i just like to let it soak in for a while. some things i can relate to and others i just dont get it. dosent mean i cant learn a little in the prosses.

[meandher2go]

we NEVER judge people cause we never wanna be judged.

if peoplewanna do certain things, god bless them, its just not for us. we dont wanna play with them now maybe but thats thier decision.

we also never say never.

[LikeMinds321]

Originally Posted by sereneiders

Being totally "non-judgamental" would render ourserves useless to learn or even to think about what's going on around us.

I agree.

And this is why I feel making judgments - being "judgmental" - is a natural part of our growth and discovery.

LM

[2jersey]

We are judgmental people (inclined to make individual judgments) as are all humans (we think) - this is a natural survival instinct. We do not, however, express 'moral' judgments of people, except in very unusual circumstances.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by NandTfromCA

So I wonder if we can we ever be totally non-judgmental? Are we evolutionarily wired to pass judgment?

I think we have a personal responsibility to have an opinion...

I mean - think about it - if we simply accepted everything, where would that leave us? Like the old proverb says, "He who stands for nothing, falls for anything."

Swinging doesn't remove us from all sense of right and wrong - it doesn't mean that we can't operate under some sort of ethos. There is more grey in our world, but there is still a little black and white. There should be. We are very unlikely to have much direction without it.

When a cheater comes aboard - he gets lambasted... Mostly because as swingers we understand the value of honesty, communication and respect...

For example...

And we have a high value of what marriage is all about - higher I would suggest than most Christian people I know (as I Christian myself, I use them as an excellent example of things gone awry).

The problem with judgement is in realizing that we are talking aobut OUR comfort zones - not those of others.

Keeping with a theme - we do not play with cheaters. But does it ruin swinging as a whole for me that there are people who do? No, not really. Does it bother me that there are people that have no problem entertaining a cheater? Of course it does. I have a strong feeling about that.

But, ultimately, as long as I do not involve myself - it does not affect me. However, without being "judgemental" about it, I might not be so distant.

Judgementalism is an ugly word - but the truth is, it is a responsibility we all share: the responsibility to discern what is wrong and what is right and to make our life choices accordingly.

Spoomonkey

[TLO7777]

There's a difference between being judgemental and using discernment.

In it's common usage a person that is "judgemental" is doing more than just "using their judgement" to make decisions.

It implies that an individual is negatively defining another based on their subjective set of ethics and values.

Sure, semantically you can judge someone postively OR negatively, but when was the last time you heard this conversation...

---
"Wow, I think John is so incredibly courageous for having done that!".

"Oh honey, stop being so judgemental!".
---

So, on the original subject I would have to agree entirely.

I too find it disheartening to see others in (and out) of this lifestyle celebrating their own open-mindedness while being blatangly intolerant of those that make different choices than their own.

It's entirely possible to use discernment in deciding what works for you, and to express these preferences openly WITHOUT putting other people down in the process. There are many here that inspire me daily in modelling this type of communication.

As far as I'm concerned, if it feels good for everyone involved, is between adults, and it's handled with honesty, go for it!

So yes, I admit it... I am intolerant of intolerance. (hangs head in shame)

[intuition897]

I have no problem with being judgmental when it comes to right and wrong. And right and wrong isn't the gray area we think it is; it's a simple question. Is anyone being harmed in any way? If they are, if the overall effect of someone's actions is negative, then I feel no guilt whatsoever in calling someone on that.

Beyond that, if no one is hurting him or herself, or anyone else, then do whatever you feel is right for you.

[NandTfromCA]

Great points. Before I posted the initial post, I actually wrote a lot more which more thoroughly described my position on the issue but I didn’t want to post a book that people would take forever to read.

To be clear, I will never (and don’t want to) grow out of having emotions. I love most of my emotions . I DO want to grow out of having unproductive emotions; jealousy, hubris, insecurity, etc…all of which are intertwined but show up in different situations.

To me, there is a difference between judgments that we learn from and guide us in our lives and the judgments, which cause us to have negative (or condescending, or irritable, etc) feelings about an individual or group of people…maybe better stated as passive intolerance. Not necessarily intolerance to the point of externalizing it (being rude or speaking poorly about someone…which also happens) but intolerance to the point of internally thinking that your way of doing things is fundamentally just a little bit better (not just for you but better overall) than the way someone else does something.

I hesitated in the last post, but here’s just one example- There is the group of people in the lifestyle that go to the parties but don’t actually do anything. Many people feel that it’s great that they are doing as much as they are comfortable with and getting out to have fun. There are some people that call them “posers” and think they are wasting their time (or diluting their culture, or whatever the reason) and would like them to go find their own kind of non-swinger event to attend. MOST of me would encourage the non-swingers but, depending on the moment you catch me and if I am being totally honest with myself, a small part of me is annoyed by it. There are many people on this board who don’t relate to this example but others that I am sure do. That was just one example, and I don’t often feel the negativity, but on some issues it still shows itself from time to time. I don’t think those annoyed feelings are productive or necessary.

Again, I am really just thinking out loud and looking for the ideas of others on here. This forum has a huge number of very kind, tolerant, and intelligent participants but another forum got me thinking about the right/wrong, tolerant/intolerant issue…a forum (to remain unnamed) where you can find a plethora of negative posts. (was I just being negative to write that )

T

[WesternSwing]

Originally Posted by NandTfromCA

I hesitated in the last post, but here’s just one example- There is the group of people in the lifestyle that go to the parties but don’t actually do anything. Many people feel that it’s great that they are doing as much as they are comfortable with and getting out to have fun. There are some people that call them “posers” and think they are wasting their time (or diluting their culture, or whatever the reason) and would like them to go find their own kind of non-swinger event to attend. MOST of me would encourage the non-swingers but, depending on the moment you catch me and if I am being totally honest with myself, a small part of me is annoyed by it. There are many people on this board who don’t relate to this example but others that I am sure do. That was just one example, and I don’t often feel the negativity, but on some issues it still shows itself from time to time. I don’t think those annoyed feelings are productive or necessary.

I don't care if there are those living on the fringe of the lifestyle. Since our clubs here are off-premise we see quite a few new faces with each party, people bored with the regular club scene and investigating other forms of fun. Many of these never return or keep coming, dancing, flirting, etc. then going home alone. GREAT! I'm glad they do what they are comfortable with. The only time I have a problem is when they lead on others that they do play, then at the last minute don't. If it's known up front that they are "voyeurs" and not "full swap" then everything is cool with us. We have several couple friends that are just such, and we love seeing them at the club or going to dinner occasionally. We just don't like being duped. Even then I guess we're not judgemental, just pissed.

Mr. WS

[EvilMJ]

I find this a very interesting topic. One thing that is mentioned is people being judgemental about other people's decisions and opinons, but often I find many people coming to the board, such as cheating husbands/wives (just one example), posting their story and then becoming indignant when we do not support/approve of their choices or sympathise with their situation.
I find they come in with preconceived notions as to what a swinger should be. As if the fact that we live a more sexually liberated lifestyle means we are going to be the most accepting non judgemental people on the planet and will support their choices with open arms. I am sorry but I don't think it is fair to say that because we are swingers we have to be accepting of everyone's choices, we all have our own individual preferences, standards, morals and when we feel someone had crossed a line that is not acceptable, then we speak up. It doesn't make us superior in anyway, or close minded, but there are going to be times that I disagree, and I have no problem doing so. However I try to avoid the name calling, rudness, hurtful nasty ways of doing that.

I feel you can disagree with an opinon you do not agree with, for the most part, without resorting to negativity and rudness. But can we be non judgemental, I know I can't...I love a good debate .

Good topic.

[NandTfromCA]

Originally Posted by WesternSwing

...I'm glad they do what they are comfortable with. The only time I have a problem is when they lead on others that they do play, then at the last minute don't...Even then I guess we're not judgemental, just pissed.

Mr. WS

WS- Even though I did notice you posted something concerning the non-swinger topic, it was not at all targeted at you. You rock ! N and I really appreciate your postings. This was just one example that was easy to write out. There are many other issues that you, me, and the other SB posters will be on one side or the other about.

Concerning it making you pissed though- Don’t you have to pass judgment and become intolerant to get pissed? PLEASE don’t take this as an attack…I get pissed sometimes too. I am not trying to stir shit up just for the sake of having stir'd shit. This discussion helps me (and hopefully others) to work through some of this.

Your post, echoing my feelings very closely, does bring up the question though- how clear do they have to be? Do they have to tell you the moment you walk up? Can they wait until you ask them? I hate to contradict another very provocative, and dare I say extremely hot forum member that I think highly of…but I have to- This is where I think there is in fact a gray area

One more time though, just for the record, the above stated example is just one example…plug in whatever you feel judgmental/intolerant/pissed about BUT might consider if you really should be.

I guess it goes back to the idea that some things warrant judgments and intolerance and some things do not. The rub is in the fact that what one person deems intolerable another will encourage as a perfectly acceptable personal decision/journey/philosophy.