Submissive straight men?

[TeamSoBe]

Has anybody ever heard of a submissive straight guy? I don't mean a guy who gets his kicks with a dominatrix. As in: a guy who never takes charge with a woman. Goes for aggressive women because those are the ones who will come after him. Lets them decide the when, where, how (who) about sex. Is that possible? Like a woman who gravitates to a man who will just tell her what to do, including in bed? "Whipped" I guess?

I'm asking because I think that I might be that guy. Just figuring this out. 30 years old, oral sex but no penetration with two serious long-term girlfriends from 16 up, lost my virginity at 19 to an experienced girl who took charge, next girlfriend was my future wife who jumped my bones after a party. I rarely take charge in these things. My wife and I fuck constantly, don't worry about that. I just don't really take charge like I have seen other guys do with my own wife. I never realized I was different until swinging but I have seen guys just upend her and nail her and push her around and she loves it when it's done right. I have zero clue how to do that without it being rape so I don't attempt it. My wife has said things about women that I have interacted with in swinging that I didn't understand at the time. I'm realizing now that I think she figured me out years ago.

I ask because we have met a couple who we really get along with and big surprise the woman is really aggressive with me. We interact with lots of potentials but the couple we're keeping close right now interests us because of her interest in me and I just can't help but notice it's that pattern again.

I would very much like to not be so submissive with women. It has been causing some problems in swinging. I want to learn to take charge and move faster because I have been left in the dust a couple of times by guys who just take my wife and fuck her while I'm still afraid to touch their women's thighs. Does anybody think that there is any hope of me taking more control of this one with this woman or am I just inherently submissive?

[mxdtxn774]

Well I'm back after trolling for a while! Hope everybody's been having fun. I just want to say that I feel that way too. I initiate mostly, but don't do that rough take charge kinda of, well I don't know, beast fucking maybe?( I guess that's what it's called) Anyway I would like to know how to get out of that because if we are on target for swinging in clubs I get the idea that I too will be left in the dust. My wife is more than ready. I wonder if I will keep up.

[TeamSoBe]

But how to initiate? If you can initiate but then you're gentle with women then you're still a step ahead of me. I understand women really well emotionally and intellectually and I get along with them really easily once I know them but I don't know how to take charge when I have initially met somebody who I'm physically interested in. I know this is a bizarre situation since I'm so experienced with so many extreme sexual situations. I'm just clumsy with women.

For example, I'm flat-out afraid to touch a woman that I don't know very well. Like this woman from the couple that I was talking about, she grabbed me and went after me at a night club a couple of weeks ago. She kissed me, she kept touching my hair (long) she touched my chest and my arms and at one point went under my shirt. I got freaked out and kind of pulled away from her, I do that a lot. Especially after she kept groping my weiner.

As much as I am into her and as much as I wanted all of that to happen it just freaked me out because I'm totally unsure of what my role is supposed to be. When she was attacking me I didn't even know what to do with my hands, I tried to hold her around her shoulders but then I felt like I wasn't being aggressive enough, I ended up brushing some boob but that kind of freaked me out. I mean, I don't know this lady, I just feel wrong feeling her up. I'm totally clumsy and I guess I'm afraid of crossing some line somewhere and pissing somebody off. While this was going on I found out later that her guy was crouched down on the floor eating my wife out, who was leaned up against me. That situation would have made me a little uncomfortable but mostly excited with people who we knew already but with virtual strangers (we had had dinner with them once before after meeting through swingers date club) it was a near-panic situation for me.

Some people reading this must think that I'm joking or something but I'm for real, this is really serious for me. The big secret is that part of why my wife and I are in this is so that I can be less afraid of these situations. I have always been like this, thus the low numbers on the totem pole. Is this social anxiety disorder?

[Elusive BiFem]

Originally Posted by TeamSoBe

Some people reading this must think that I'm joking or something but I'm for real, this is really serious for me. The big secret is that part of why my wife and I are in this is so that I can be less afraid of these situations. I have always been like this, thus the low numbers on the totem pole. Is this social anxiety disorder?

I am taking this seriously so don't get offended. OK?
Look back through your post and read some of the words you wrote.
Attacking me...brushing some boob freaked me out...aggressive enough...near panic situation...less afraid.

Some strong words to convey your feelings, wouldn't you say? Men don't frequently write about being "attacked" by a woman, and especially in swinging situations. Maybe they feel that way, and just don't feel comfortable saying so. Not a man - don't know. But from the choice of words, I would agree you probably are experiencing "near panic" and would suggest that you slow down somewhat. You might want to try finding a couple that you can get to know rather than the club situation.

How long have ya'll been swinging - since you mention you got into this to get over those feelings or be less afraid? Do you have any idea why this would evoke such strong reactions in you? Have you gotten any better? Are there any situations where you don't panic? I'm nNot necessarily looking for answers but giving you something to think about.

Even with behavior desensitization treatment, most psychologists/counselors starts you off slowly on very non-threatening situations and certainly not something that will cause the panic reaction immediately.

From your description, it sounds more like what is commonly described as "panic attacks." There are medications that can be of extreme assistance in overcoming some of these reactions and I would suggest you talk to your physician about prescribing something. Also, you may want to seek counseling. It's horrible to live with these types of reactions. I don't think you are going to get any really helpful answers here since these types of reactions can take so many different forms and can stem from different places. Counseling and medication to control the attacks might be the best bet. Good luck. - EBF

[JustAskJulie]

I have seen guys who are like this with women they are new to. For instance, my ex could be aggressive with me somewhat but when it came to other women he couldn't, no way no how. He waited for them to initiate everything and this often made women think he just wasn't interested and they walked away. However, with me he was familiar and could initiate things. I know other guys like this as well.

But from what you are saying, you can't/ don't even initiate things with your wife, correct? Have you talked to her about this to get her take on it?

[TeamSoBe]

Thank you for your time, I really appreciate that you took the time to think about it. I'm not looking for a magic bullet solution, just trying to figure myself out a little since it has caused a few problems. Can't solve a problem until you identify it.

We have been 'swinging' for our whole entire relationship, it isn't anything really to do with that. Almost all of our swinging experiences have been MFM with straight men where there is no chance of a lot of gratification for me, or FFM situations with girls who are not into me but are into my wife where I don't do any penetration, just oral if anything, or encounters with couples that generally go poorly for everybody because I'm so slow. It's interacting with women that I don't know well that makes me uncomfortable, not the swinging. I'm very comfortable seeing my woman with other men or women or groups or whatever but I'm really uncomfortable being involved myself I guess. I have always called myself "shy" but I'm starting to think that "shy" isn't the right description. If I'm not shy then I am starting to wonder if there is something wrong with me.

I have had full-on panic attacks before (not in swinging) because of real, true stressful situations so I definitely know what they feel like. This feeling that I get is kind of panicky and unsure of myself but not the same thing at all. A panic attack is an overwhelming physical feeling of impending doom, this is more of a freaked-out stage fright kind of feeling. Like I'm just unsure of how to proceed and I'm pretty sure that I'm fucking it up by not being aggressive enough but I'm never sure what to do. What I can get away with, what I'm expected to try to get away with, when it's okay to go for it, I just never learned these things. I have spent my whole life giving and I never learned to take. Now I am starting to feel inadequate because of that.

So here is the big problem: people would obviously advise communication, finding a couple who is willing to go as slow as me, all of that. The problem here is that we now have that couple and we have great communication with them and they are gracious and gentle about pushing it with us, but I'm still not sure how to handle it. I don't want to discuss my inexperience with her or with both of them because just from reading this you can see that I'm a self-defeating whiner type and I'm trying to reverse that, not perpetuate it. I don't want to go around warning people that I'm not confident, I want to learn how to be more confident. But even if I manage to communicate that I need to go more slowly without discussing my inexperience then we still end up with a situation where we finally have a couple willing to wait for me, but then all of the pressure is on me. Three other horny people waiting for me to make a move that I'm not capable of making. I don't know how to start it and now that I realize that I finally have a situation where I'm in control I don't know what the hell to do.

This lack of confidence that I have is a complete and total turnoff. I get that and I want to change. Alcohol gets me out of my shell but I have already learned all about the downsides to drinking your way into confidence. I figure I only have a week or two before the four of us are together sharing a bottle of wine with the four of them waiting around for nature to take its course and me to go after this woman. That isn't going to happen, even in my fantasies I don't know what to do. I'm a guy who has had sex with about three women in his life in a room with three other people who have had hundreds of partners each. In order to avoid freaking me out they are all going to be waiting for me to make my move, but, like, how can that make sense? I have no idea how to handle this.

[Miss_Piggy]

The only person who can tell you if you have Social Anxiety Disorder is a mental health professional. That being said, let's take a look at the criteria really quick.

Persistent fear of unfamiliar people and scrutiny by others usually to the point of anxiety. The distress is severe enough that it interferes with one's daily functioning, work or school, and/or relationships. As well, the person understands that the fear is irrational (meaning you haven't lost your grip on reality). There is a bit more to it but that's sort of the quick run down.

As far as how to deal with such things. From a clinical perspective, there are a number of things that can be done to deal with social anxiety. I'm not going to go into that as I'm not sure that any of it will be or any help. After all, I'm not a mental health professional and in no position to offer diagnosis.

There is one treatment that I gather is pretty helpful and can help people with even the most minor of fears. In order to make things more fun and exciting its called Systematic Desensitization. Basically, you gradually work your way up to more and more difficult situations. You'd start with working on initiating things more with your wife. I don't know what you are comfortable doing and what you aren't comfortable doing but once you get comfortable with that (fopr example) you move on to something that is mildly difficult for you to do but not impossible. Perhaps you try initiating a touch of another woman. Then work on a kiss. Perhaps you can work on this with the aggressive woman that you mentined. Work up to a kiss then whatever. You can work out what you think is easier and what you think is more difficult. Keep in mind that a woman should be able to tell you if you are doing something that she does not approve of. I also hope that you can clearly see the difference between being aggressive and rape. And that the comment, "I have zero clue how to do that without it being rape" is a bit of an exaggeration.

Well, I think I have babbled on enough now. I agree with what EBF said, such things can have a multitude of causes and associated features. The way to get a better idea of what is going on is to seek professional attention. Best of luck to you.

{Note about Panic Attacks: Panic attacks are much more severe that anxiety. The symptoms are often not unlike a heart attack. Things like heart palpitations, chest pain, sweating, trembling, nausea, dizziness, feeling like you are going to lose control or die...}

[mxdtxn774]

TeamSobe,

I am sorry for the confusion, as I only initiate with my wife, and even then not very well. I completely understand about the club situation, so it would seem that you are way ahead of me( I haven't been to any clubs yet). Now my wife, her sister, and their friends have no qualms about walking up, grabbing, kissing, etc. But we do, and part of it in my opinion is that we were trained to be classic gentlemen(look but don't touch, treat women with respect, etc.) and when we get to a situation as you have described, we don't have any rules for engagement. Ladies, would you help two kind gentlemen who wants to have fun but does not wish to disrespectful?

As far as Socialized anxiety disorder, that can definitley play a part. I have had those types of attacks in the past, and the only thing I can tell you to do if it happens is to hang on for the ride cause once it's over then you should not have another episode(in my case about 5 minutes but can seem like eternity). But Miss Piggy is right only a doctor or psychiatrist can diagnose that. And she is also on target about desensitizing yourself to new situations that can cause anxiety. I wish you the best, just keep at it and I am sure that you will be alright.

[TeamSoBe]

Wow guys, thank you SO much! I should have mentioned this here a long time ago but I'm very ashamed about my inexperience, especially around swingers. I almost posted this thread as an unregistered user because I'm so ashamed of this but I thought that some of you might take an interest in how bizarrely inexperienced I am in some things but so comfortable and experienced with others. I give advice that I honestly think is correct to people around here all the time on how to deal with swinging situations because I'm perfectly comfortable with swinging situations. As long as they don't involve me and my dick getting gratification I guess.

Texan, I do come from the same background that you do. That's fascinating to hear the same story from you. My mother is a very strong, intelligent, assertive, independent woman. We marched on our state capitol for ERA with NOW and defended womens' health clinics from fundamentalists when I was a little kid. I have found out recently as an adult that she had a first marriage right after high school that I never even knew about. The guy was apparently abusive and the whole thing has been stricken from the family record. I don't even know the guy's name. My dad on the other hand is extremely level-headed and controlled and stoic.

Now Miss Piggy, here's the funny part: my dad is a PhD, in behavioral psychology. Does counseling, including for social anxiety disorder. He specializes in behavior modification techniques, ways to control your own behavior. One of his favorite techniques is desensitization to help people to get over phobias. I seriously think that my parents, while meaning well, ended up completely warping me. I really do wish that I could talk to my dad about this but I just can't. There are just too many things going on here that he wouldn't approve of. Maybe that's part of why I'm so confused and conflicted.

I guess that the comment about not knowing how to take the lead without it being rape was hyperbole but not really by much. I really do have an overwhelming fear that is present at all times when I'm with a woman, even a woman that I know pretty well, that my presence is unwelcome and that she resents me being there. I either don't see the signals that women give me that they want my dick in them (sorry to be graphic but most of my concern is penetration) or I ... I don't know? My mother is not the type of 'feminazi' Dworkinite who thinks that all sex is rape or anything like that. I don't know how I ended up with that conclusion in my head but somehow it's there and I don't know quite what to do about it. I could never have just gone down on that woman at that night club like her guy did to my wife because.. I mean, why would she want me to do that? Somehow it seems natural to me that she and my wife would be doing that to each other but when she started groping at my dick the "TILT!!" alarms just started going off in my head. Like, 'this is not supposed to be happening, why isn't she doing this to my wife instead'?

Texan, if you're anything like me you might not want to answer this question so no big deal if you don't, but did you also end up pretty inexperienced with women? As in, you like them just fine but you haven't been with huge numbers of them? Is that also part of why you and your wife are looking for new experiences?

[Elusive BiFem]

Say, TeamSoBe...you know how I am...get interested in something and start searching out the information...

Anyway, I found this information on social phobia or social anxiety disorder and thought you might be interested in reading about it. Likely, you already have since you suspect that as being your problem, but it might give you some new information. This is a really good site that I use with much of my work with all articles peer reviewed, etc. Hope it might prove helpful to you.

- EBF

Social Phobia

[TeamSoBe]

Oh wow, cool, thank you! I haven't done much reading into this because it never occurred to me until recently that there was anything wrong with me. This latest woman who fits my pattern of aggressive women who do all of the work for me is what clued me in that maybe I'm screwed up. I grew up with the disorder terms from the DSM floating around my home all the time because of my dad and I have kind of tuned most of it out so I don't know much about it.

I also started thinking about it because of Ricky Williams. For the non sports fans, Ricky Williams was until just recently one of the best running backs in the NFL. He quit and just bolted because of social anxiety disorder. I noticed a lot of similarities when I read his story after he quit.

I think that our Texan friend also has a good grip on what's going on with both of us when he says that we have been taught our whole lives to be respectful of women and not to impose ourselves on them. Also in swinging, when you get into swinging it's all about boundaries, and normally there is a big fat boundary telling the guys to stay off of the women. At some point in some situations the rules change and we get a green light to mount up and slide in the penis, but some guys like the two of us posting here never learned how to realize when that green light happens or how to conduct ourselves at that point. Our whole natures are built around restraining ourselves from the things that we want to do to the women around us. Especially in swinging.

I'm about to go and do some reading. At the very least I feel somewhat better today just from knowing that I'm not the only guy in the world who feels like this.

[Mephisto]

hmmm .... this reminds me of myself to a degree ..

....it's all about boundaries, and normally there is a big fat boundary telling the guys to stay off of the women. At some point in some situations the rules change and we get a green light to mount up and slide in the penis, but some guys like the two of us posting here never learned how to realize when that green light happens ...

Its more. not trusting my instincts when it comes to signals that women give.

Unless you are very blunt, I will remain polite and seem somewhat stand-offish.



Good luck TeamSoBe, knowing there is a problem is half the battle to resolving it.

[TeamSoBe]

Mephisto, I definitely feel you. I sometimes see signals that my brain registers but then my self-control won't allow me to respond to. Like, oh, say, a girl shoving her tongue down my throat for 20 minutes straight. I talk myself out of believing a lot of winks and smiles and things like that from women and I think that I prevent things from going further because they think I'm not interested.

I'm reading this link that Elusive Bi Fem posted about social anxiety disorder, and wow. Yep, that's me. I learned something new about myself today:

Patients fear being humiliated or embarrassed by their actions and may become intensely anxious, with increased heart rate, diaphoresis, and other signs of autonomic arousal. These physical symptoms may cause additional anxiety, often leading to a conditioned fear response that reinforces the anxiety of public situations.

That's me right there. One of the things that freaked me out about this encounter that I keep talking about was that it was a relatively hot dance party and seeing this couple (it was a surprise) made me anxious. Started to get a bit damp and I have long hair. She went to pay attention to me and touch my hair at one point and that freaked me out since I knew that I was sweating. It never occurred to me that other people might have had other things running through their heads at the time other than preoccupation over feeling wet and slimy.

So this is all very interesting. Now I have to figure out what to do about it. I happen to be armed with a huge array of behavior modification techniques that I'm really good at using on myself. I think that's what got me into this in the first place.

Here's a question with a simple answer that I don't know: if any of the swinging ladies here met a couple where you like both of them but the guy was timid like I'm suggesting, would you want to know what's going on or would you want him to just suck it up and try to act as confidently as he's able? I'm not really in danger of freaking out and causing a scene or anything, it's just that I feel like I'm faking it when I act confident and it's hard for me. I'm also worried about appearing uninterested by missing obvious signals. Would "I'm a little shy and I usually move slowly but I'm trying to keep up" be an adequate explanation? I don't want to be dishonest or anything but I would like to discuss the whole thing as little as possible. Especially with a woman that I'm hoping to have sex with.

[Pepper & Drew]

Originally Posted by TeamSoBe

If any of the swinging ladies here met a couple where you like both of them but the guy was timid like I'm suggesting, would you want to know what's going on or would you want him to just suck it up and try to act as confidently as he's able?

I'd rather know if the guy was feeling less than confident in my intentions. Why have the lady try and be a mind-reader and guess on whether you are really interested or not? I'm thinking back on some situations we've been in and I'm thinking now that perhaps it wasn't that they weren't interested...it was just that they didn't see the signs! I know you don't want to discuss the subject at length with a woman you are possibly going to play with, but a little honesty can go a long way. She could reassure you that she's quite alright with you being more assertive with her.

[Elusive BiFem]

Originally Posted by Pepper & Drew

She could reassure you that she's quite alright with you being more assertive with her.

Or....she might become more comfortable in being assertive.

I agree. I wouldn't leave her in the dark about what is going on. - EBF