She wants a theesome without me but no foursome with me.

[Additude]

First off I will say that I am sorry for what is happening to you. This is not normal relationship activity. Your wife is leading you on and is hanging on to you for some reason, however I do not feel it's for loving emotional support. Maybe it's your bank account, maybe it's your security, maybe it's out of fear of family reprisal if she gets a divorice. But who knows, these are just guesses.

One thing is certain, you are being used and led like a puppy on a leash. It's time to start drawing lines and stop being a "Yes" man. You need to ask some serious questions, and get some serious answers. No BS stuff like, "Maybe I'll feel more close and sexual towards you later after I am through Fucking the neighbor".

That doesn't cut it. You say your wife is a master of subject change...I say she is only that if you allow her to change the subject. If you accept answers like she is giving you then you have no room for complaint. Your the fool and your allowing yourself to be the fool.

Of course there are always 2 sides to every story and we have only heard one. Therefore my response is one sided.

I know what ADHD is. My last wife had it big time and some of your recounts about your time in the counselors office is so reminiscent of the times I spent in counseling with her.

But the bottom line is do YOU want to continue this way with your wife and your life? If you do, then that's fine, if you don't then you need to change it by the way you react to her and what she says, or you need to just get the hell out of Dodge.

A test is that most times, the emotions will change to a positive flair if they are confronted with the fear of loss. If she doesn't care if she looses you, then she will respond accordingly....and the same if she does care.

You need to put her to the test and get some answers to your questions.

[JustAskJulie]

It's not uncommon for major medical problems to kill a marriage. It honestly sounds to me like that may be the case here. The two of you are comfortable together but I don't think she is really IN love with you anymore. Sex with you is more of a requirement of her marriage obligations than something she wants. Whereas she can easily enjoy sex with other people.

I have to agree with those who have said STOP SWINGING. As someone who is in the midst of a divorce myself I can see some parallels there. Work on your own marriage first. If these friends of yours are really friends they will understand your need to do this. In fact, I would think they would see the problems and back off on their own.

GO back to marriage counseling and don't stop until either you are both happy and on common ground.

Thanks everyone for you great input. It is true that I am not getting what I want sexually from my wife. The more I think about it, she has only really pursued me once to have sex with her that was a couple months ago, it was great. A couple other times we were having a date night at home with some drinks and she gave me head for about a minute, I couldn't do anything with her, as she says that she wants to be the aggressive one - I don't think that is working for her. She talks a lot of talk, but fails to come through. She talks about swinging again every single day since then, however she is uninterested in sex with me - if she gives in, it has to be missionary and "hurry up". She states that she will let me go down on her but she needs to be a little tipsy, anytime I bring it up I get the "pretty soon" or when I feel more comfortable.

The more I think about her ground rules question the more the real picture shines through. She stated "what if I am with her in the bathroom, or with him - can I do anything, what if they come over and you are not there, etc. After I said what makes me uncomfortable, she says that is manipulative. She wants an open relationship, and that all 4 of us would be together 99% of the time when we see this couple(sex or not). She states that she wants us all to be together, but her questions prove that she wants to be able to have privacy to do her own thing.

This week when our swinger friends came over to dinner my wife would dissapear with each one of them for a few minutes in another room, nothing happened but that exact situation (asking, what if we were in the other room or something - can I do anything?) she questioned me about came up.

Last night she was over at their house and she called me on the phone, I said she could do whatever she wants - thinking that, I dunno what I was thinking. Nothing happened (because the other girl was on her period) her husband won't do anything without her, and that is why I presume nothing happened.

You are right about stepping back from swinging until we iron out this situation. I don't really know what to say that wont come off in a bad tone, I want it to be a positive thing. Maybe I should say that once we can have sex like we do with our swinger couple on a regular basis rather than maintenance - we can talk about doing it again. Maybe a sex therapist is in order too.

Thanks again all!

[bear_n_bunny]

Dude, I hate to say this, but your marriage, such as it is, is as fucked up as a football bat. And assuming that we are getting the straight skinny from you on what has been going on, it's your wife's fault.

First off, this business of the episiotomy problems does not compute. Any gynecologist worth his or her salt should have been able to correct any problems along these lines long ago. Especially after three damn years.

And she's able to have sex with other people, but not you? She was using a vibrator and even now masturbates every day? Clearly her libido is operational, and if she can have regular sex with the other guy, there's no reason why she can't with you, unless there's some kind of major size mismatch between you and the other guy.

And she won't have a straight conversation with you about all these goings on? Additude is right; she's leading you around by the nose, son, and you are letting her do it.

First thing right off, the swinging stops. If she gives you any grief about it, then I'd tell her it stops or don't let the doorknob hit you in the ass on your way out, and don't come back.

Next, both of you need to get to work on your marriage NOW. That means straight talk from both of you. No "changing the subject" or any of that rot. Get down to cases. If you need a therapist, find one. Yes, it can be difficult, in that it's often hard to find a therapist that you both click with (and you do have to have some kind of affinity for the therapist if it's going to work), but keep looking until you do. Again, assuming you are giving us the straight story on what's been going on, she is the one who has some serious issues to deal with.

That is, if she's interested in staying married to you. Because if she's not, then it's time for you to cease wasting your life on this bitch, and show her the door. I know that divorce, especially with kids involved is difficult, but from what you describe, you don't have a marriage to start with. And believe me, where women are concerned, there are plenty more where she came from. And some of them will actually be interested in a real marriage, not this "what's mine is mine, and what's yours is negotiable" bullshit she's been handing you.

In any case, I hope things work out for you.

-- Bear

The initial episiotomy failed, so did the second third forth, fifth and finally the sixth one took, it took 3 years for them to get it right, all different doctors except for the guy who really fixed it, he did the surgery twice.

She does have sex with me, but it aint much nor often. And yes, if she can do everything with someone else, there's no reason she can't with me.

She is good and controlling the conversations, she gets frustrated and tells me it hurts, gives me the gory details of how it hurts, then she is tired, and why she is so tired there are several others as well - all real reasons, but it is like crying wolf everytime. Basically she answers only part of the questions.

I have tried to portray this as well as I can from both sides, obviously her story has merit too.

The only other thing I would add is that the past couple years I have been in a deep depression and have been taking everyone down with me, which is another reason for her friction. I have been working hard as hell all year on it and I have turned around.

It just seems like it never works for us to be both on the same page.

[alabamafuntonig]

well you can sink or swim trust me i know.. i worked it out on my end and she on hers ! it takes two to tango and 2 to have a relationship! trust me getting depressed is the worst thing to do ..i did it and it was not fun! sometimes i felt that the bottle was my only friend, but then i seeked advice ,listend and took what was offerd me ! its not all black and white in relationships and grey areas are plenty ~! but on the other hand not all problems have solutions and sometimes we have to seperate our love for some one and the love we have for our self! its no fun being in love with someone that does not recipricate it back in a way that is needed ! hed our warning and take advice with a grain of salt but please what ever you do ! do what you know you should ,think,plan and carry out what needs to happen or you will be misrible for the rest of your life...

[OhioCouple]

WantItOnIt:

It pains me to say this, but ya'll have some very serious problems. Remove the fact of swinging for a moment. Your personal relationship is in serious trouble. Please listen to what Bear had to say. He hit the nail on the head, in my opinion.

Mrs. O

[mde 4764]

Based on what you have said here, I can't believe you are still married to this woman. There is one possibility that no body has touched on. She could be blaming you for all the pain she endured with the repeated surgeries. ( Her reasoning, "it was having your child that caused her physical problem.")

As for her still having pain during sex, I don't believe that BS for a minute. She can go fuck the neighbor and not complain of pain and wants to go back and do it again. It doesn't sound to me like she is having pain. She is using that as an excuse to not have sex with you.

You need to sit her down and talk. Don't allow her to change the subject or sidestep the questions. You also need to ask yourself some honest questions about what you want and why are you hanging on. If you have been dealing with this problem for this long and it hasn't gotten significantly better, which it doesn't appear to have, then I don't think it is going to.

I don't think a marriage counselor is the answer. I think you wife has some deep seated psychological problems that she needs help with and a marriage counselor is not trained to deal with those kind of problems.

I feel for you. I stayed in an unhappy marriage for a number of years thinking and hoping that things would get better. Nothing got better and I finally said enough. That was the best thing I ever did for myself. I've remarried and have a wonderful life with a beautiful wife.

We have had our good times and bad, other than the sexual thing our relationship is great. We talk all day together over the phone on work days. The reason I am hanging on? I love her, there is always talk of things going better and every once in a while progress is made.

Other issues like our work schedule and kids, I work during the week and she works on the weekends and a couple nights, so time together is restricted to the house at night - mostly doing the family thing. Wife is trying very hard on her own to make a day or two a month free for us all to be together. We don't do babysitters, unless family members come in from out of town and watch the kids for the evening. We are working on finding a sitter so we can have a life too.

The most we have done during those times is hanging out with our swinger friends. Good friends to the both of us and it is truly fun playing pool and having a good time. It is also outside of our house/family situation. I also think that her wanting to swing with them, and asking questions about doing stuff with them when no-one is around is brought on by the fact another lifestyle is available outside of home, and I equal home (since we don't do much out of the house).

Perhaps we need a retreat just for the two of us to rekindle things. Perhaps the thought of sex with me is just not there anymore, I guess I cannot be scared anymore and go with the flow becuase I know that I am setting myself to get hurt (and already feeling this way). Time to get to the bottom of this!

Just thought of a couple more things to say.

Wife states that she does not want to feel pressure from me to have sex. Honestly I ask every single day and it has definately put her on the defensive. She states that she does not want to feel like she has to perform or else - that would make me feel uncomfortable too That statement seems fair enough, however it shouldn't be the gateway to avoiding the problem all together.

It seems that avoidance is the easy avenue to take for the both of us as I reread all yours and my postings.

Do you have any suggestions that I could try to rekindle things? Obviously the pestering needs to stop, and I have to learn to read the signals (stupid stuff like being playfull when we cannot do anything - like while getting ready for work and running late, or she had a tired and stressful day not to push it). She and I have been a lot more intimate outside of sex, snuggling, complimenting each other etc.

So paritally it seems like we are starting off on a good path, but this 3 years of rebuilding is tiring - and messed up if she can let it all loose with another person. I am surprised I haven't got the guts up yet to REALLY make some headway, I am also surprised that I will not & have not cheated in this relationship given all the time, false hopes and letdowns.

[bear_n_bunny]

WantItOnIt,

I understand about the depression thing; been there, done that. It's a royal pain in the ass, and that's a fact. And I also know about conflicting work schedules (Bunny can tell you all about that... and how it can upset cuddle time and the like. However, I, for one, can't get past the fact that she's (as mde4764 put it) still wanting to fuck your friends, but not you. And that she seems to manipulate the conversation to her advantage whenever you try to discuss it with her.

Yeah, you've got some issues, too, it would seem. And you are like the rest of us married guys, in that getting a bit nooky now and then from Ms. WantItOnIt should not require an act of Congress.

However, you ARE a married couple; at least that is what the marriage license says. And while you can't have a marriage based solely on sex, you damn sure can't have one without it, either.

And I also understand that you love her. But the fact is that if this issue is not dealt with, and soon (and this means wifey getting her head out of her ass and realizing that YOU are her husband and #1, first, last and always bed partner, not Joe Stud and his always-wet-and-tasty wife down the street, then you are going to end up with some serious resentments of your own, directed towards HER. That is, if this has not already started. And those resentments can be sudden death to a marriage also, take my word for it.

So, again, forget the swinging. Now. And get her some help. Finally, if she is unwilling to comply with these two actions, then it's time for you to leave, as she is no longer a wife to you, nor you a husband to her (not that you don't want to be, but she is not allowing it). Right now, you are just a meal ticket/room mate to her, and not much else.

-- Bear

[hotcpl4fun]

Yes I did have sex with the other girl. Then it was two on one with my wife, I was asked by the other guy to join in and that is where I was DENIED

It would have stopped right then!! There is definitely something wrong here and like previous posters have said "this lifestyle is not the place for cpls that are unsecure in their marriage. Just our opinion

[wrnakedru]

A thought occurs ....

Do you know the difference between a whore and a bitch?

A whore fucks everybody. A bitch fucks everybody but you.

[Elusive BiFem]

Say, WantItOnIt...has it occurred to you that you are like a flounder swimming upstream in this relationship?

Swinging is the last thing you two need to be thinking about right now - both for the sake of your own marriage as well as the involvement of whomever you choose to swing with. I can't even begin to imagine why your friends would even consider furthering a swinging relationship knowing the current status of the relationship you and your wife have. I'm not married...but I guarantee...if I was and my spouse had dismissed me in a swinging situation the way you describe...Whoa! there would have been hell to pay and that would be the last time swinging was discussed!!

Everyone has problems from time to time...physical and emotional. When that stuff happens in our lives, most of us tend to believe we need to back off from the extra-curricular activities of life and concentrate on the things we hold near and dear. As a rule, we don't go out trying to create additional discord for ourselves or our partners. Not unless we just simply don't give a crap about our partner and some of this stuff (episiotomy pain, etc.) is being used as a mere excuse to avoid the emotional and physical responsibilities of marriage.

This has been going on for 3 years. You've had counseling. Nothing has helped...so you say. Either find another counselor (and no, they are not one-size-fits-all)...or if neither of you are agreeable to making the sacrifices (and yes, I mean sacrifices) that counseling requires, you need to find a good attorney. Swinging is about relationships. Your writings do not sound like there is a real relationship here.

One of your other lines...about being surprised you haven't cheated, etc....it struck me that you might be trying to seek approval for cheating. Don't know...the thought just crossed my mind.

Don't mean to sound harsh...just realistic. - EBF