How to compensate the she's hot he's not syndrome?

[arvcpl]

Hello, male half here. I need some advice and guidence on a common issue in the lifestyle. First a little background, we have been active in the lifestyle for a year or so. I am fit and healthy (I workout, no beer gut) try to dress nice, am perfectly groomed and clean. I am of pleasant disposition and can carry on an intelligent conversation on a wide variety of topics and I am not obsessed with sex and can talk to women about anything and am always respectfull and curteous. Here's the problem, my wife is downright beautiful and I am not. I am not deformed or disfigured but I am no Brad Pitt by any stretch of the imagination, I am just a face in the crowd. It seems like it is pretty universal in the lifestyle that the female halves of couples are significantly more attractive than their male partners. My wife is straight and has no interest in F/F play so we are not one of those couples where the women play and the men just sit on the sidelines. Wherever we go she could have any male in the room but of course is only interested in those that she finds very attractive. That is fine in and of itself but those guys have partners that stop traffic and are way out of my league. Of the women that do give me the time of day and are in my league their partners don't do anything for my wife.
What my question is is how do I as an average Joe Sixpack compensate for lack of physical assets to make myself a more prospective match for women that are used to getting whatever guy they want? Please don't tell me this is an insecurity issue on my part. I am not insecure, this is an very real issue not only for me but for many people in the LS. I guess the bottom line question is what do women want from a male half of a couple when genetic reengineering or cosmetic surgery is not an option? Any suggestions, hints or ideas will be much appreciated.

[tribbles]

Just play with your wife and have fun.

Oh, and ask the women with the men who your wife wants to play with....what they want from you? If you are finding hot who want hot only....well...read the first line I posted again.

And is your wife only going for guys who are hot with a hot wife? So you aren't going to get into the play cuz you are the not hot one of the 4?

If yes, does that mean she plays but you don't or neither of you get to play?

[nwmifun]

Wow, it sounds like the places you're going have some crowds with high expectations. We find that if we don't place the emphasis on the play and more on the getting to know you, it happens a lot easier. Getting to know a couple has even on occasion made us run screaming from a very hot couple or two.

One of the best things about the whole "lifestyle" is that most of the people are pretty laid back and as long as you take care of yourself as it sounds like you do, most of the people are going to be pretty accepting.

We all have our warts, and we feel someone's personality helps to hide those warts better than anything else going.

[arvcpl]

Originally Posted by tribbles

Just play with your wife and have fun.

Oh, and ask the women with the men who your wife wants to play with....what they want from you? If you are finding hot who want hot only....well...read the first line I posted again.

And is your wife only going for guys who are hot with a hot wife? So you aren't going to get into the play cuz you are the not hot one of the 4?

If yes, does that mean she plays but you don't or neither of you get to play?

Trust me I do play with my wife and I do have fun I'm not sure I am completely understanding your other questions. We only play together and neither of us will take one for the team and I don't want anyone to feel like they are taking one for the team to be with me. When you ask is my wife only going for hot guys with hot wives the answer is yes, the guys she is attracted to have wives that are Swedish Bikini Team material. As we don't play seperately we only play if all 4 are going to be at least somewhat engaged. The problem is the women that I stand a chance with my wife has no interest in their partner and the men that my wife is interested in have partners that don't have an interest in me.

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by arvcpl

I am fit and healthy (I workout, no beer gut) try to dress nice, am perfectly groomed and clean. I am of pleasant disposition and can carry on an intelligent conversation on a wide variety of topics and I am not obsessed with sex and can talk to women about anything and am always respectfull and curteous.

For starters, let me say that you sound like you are in the top 5%-10% for desireability. I don't know what age bracket you're in, but you sound like a stand-out guy. I'm not saying this to diminish how you're feeling, but by being fit, healthy, well-dressed, very well-groomed and having great social skills, you're among the cream of the crop.

Originally Posted by arvcpl

Here's the problem, my wife is downright beautiful and I am not.
...
Wherever we go she could have any male in the room but of course is only interested in those that she finds very attractive. That is fine in and of itself but those guys have partners that stop traffic and are way out of my league.

You have a wife who stops traffic, right? Aren't there other couples much like you, in which the guy is very presentable, and the wife stops traffic? If so, that other wife married a guy who isn't Brad Pitt. Your wife is very attracted to you and loves you. I'm guessing she finds you hot. You must be in her league....she chose you out of the whole pack. If other couples are like you (wife is "hotter"), that means that those other women must be attracted to non-Brad Pitts, too.

Originally Posted by arvcpl

It seems like it is pretty universal in the lifestyle that the female halves of couples are significantly more attractive than their male partners.

Sometimes, it does seem this way, and other times it seems to be the reverse. Again, this might be an age bracket issue and I don't know yours....but in the over-40 crowd that we're in, women have had kids. Boobs may be pointing south, and they are far from having a 6-pack. I think it's easier for a man to be a hottie over time than it is for a woman (short of cosmetic surgeries).

Originally Posted by arvcpl

What my question is is how do I as an average Joe Sixpack compensate for lack of physical assets to make myself a more prospective match for women that are used to getting whatever guy they want?

Women are often (if not usually) most attracted to qualities that don't include a six-pack or a chiseled Hollywood face. This includes very good-looking women. Where do you meet couples? What kinds of clubs do you go to? Do you happen to be attending groups/clubs where inclusion into the group requires that you pass a certain standard physical appearance? Just curious.

Originally Posted by arvcpl

I guess the bottom line question is what do women want from a male half of a couple when genetic reengineering or cosmetic surgery is not an option? Any suggestions, hints or ideas will be much appreciated.

I'm most attracted to men that fit the description of how you described yourself. I'm not into GQ models or Brad Pitt-types. I'm most attracted to men who are fit & healthy, intelligent and fun, well-groomed and dressed nice. I don't like "pretty" men. In fact, I've turned a few down like that.

[arvcpl]

Originally Posted by nwmifun

Wow, it sounds like the places you're going have some crowds with high expectations. We find that if we don't place the emphasis on the play and more on the getting to know you, it happens a lot easier. Getting to know a couple has even on occasion made us run screaming from a very hot couple or two.

One of the best things about the whole "lifestyle" is that most of the people are pretty laid back and as long as you take care of yourself as it sounds like you do, most of the people are going to be pretty accepting.

We all have our warts, and we feel someone's personality helps to hide those warts better than anything else going.

I agree with everything you have said, including running from hot people once you have gotten to know them a little. And yes I do take care of myself and I am accepted as a decent guy. We do have friends in the lifestyle and we are not afraid to spend some time and energy in getting to know people and take things at the pace of the slowest person. That is not the issue. The issue is I am not fitting in with the crowd my wife finds attractive. I do need to say that she is not shallow or vain and neither are these other people per se. But the truth of the matter is you cannot help who you are attracted to and who you are not. It is just a little disheartening when introductions are being made and you can instantly see in the eyes of the other women that they are not interested in me while my wife and the other men are making puppy dog eyes at each other. Maybe I am just looking for that silver bullet that helps Average Joe guys catch the interest of beautiful women that can pick and choose any guy they want

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by arvcpl

Here's the problem, my wife is downright beautiful and I am not. I am not deformed or disfigured but I am no Brad Pitt by any stretch of the imagination, I am just a face in the crowd. It seems like it is pretty universal in the lifestyle that the female halves of couples are significantly more attractive than their male partners.

Let me fix this for you first...

It seems like it is pretty universal that the female halves of couples are significantly more attractive than their male partners.

Women tend to be better looking than their mates, but not the other way around. Pretty boys will of course marry pretty girls, but many pretty girls don't marry only pretty boys.

Originally Posted by arvcpl

Wherever we go she could have any male in the room but of course is only interested in those that she finds very attractive. That is fine in and of itself but those guys have partners that stop traffic and are way out of my league. Of the women that do give me the time of day and are in my league their partners don't do anything for my wife.

This is also 'normal' and the root of your problem. While women do not look for 'pretty' for mates (husbands) they do look for it in play things. Shes looking for the fantasy man.

So here is the real dilemma.

You wife is only interested in fantasy men for a play thing.
You are a 'normal' male.

Fantasy males are quite rare.
They almost always will have a very attractive wife.
Who is used to/only attracted to fantasy males.

So in a nut shell you are screwed (figuratively) for the most part. With no GG play its all up to you and you are only what you can be, which isn't a pretty boy.

Now yea you could get lucky with another female not so picky on looks, but those are going to be few and far between.

Your only hope is that your wife backs off a bit on looks for playmates, you keep meeting and talking to the same couples so that your personality comes into play, or you somehow get better.

If your wife backs off a bit, you will be ok, but good luck with that.

Odds are you won't have enough time to get to know couples well enough that personality becomes part of the equation for play. Swinging as a rule only gets social after you have played not before.

So that leaves you and well all I can say is we are what we are. You can improve yourself to some extent, but it seems like you are ok there, women do like muscle men as a rule for play things, (they will often tell you otherwise but for pure sex, it helps) so maybe you can improve there.

So long post short, GL, but its going to be difficult.

[arvcpl]

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

For starters, let me say that you sound like you are in the top 5%-10% for desireability. I don't know what age bracket you're in, but you sound like a stand-out guy. I'm not saying this to diminish how you're feeling, but by being fit, healthy, well-dressed, very well-groomed and having great social skills, you're among the cream of the crop.



You have a wife who stops traffic, right? Aren't there other couples much like you, in which the guy is very presentable, and the wife stops traffic? If so, that other wife married a guy who isn't Brad Pitt. Your wife is very attracted to you and loves you. I'm guessing she finds you hot. You must be in her league....she chose you out of the whole pack. If other couples are like you (wife is "hotter"), that means that those other women must be attracted to non-Brad Pitts, too.



Sometimes, it does seem this way, and other times it seems to be the reverse. Again, this might be an age bracket issue and I don't know yours....but in the over-40 crowd that we're in, women have had kids. Boobs may be pointing south, and they are far from having a 6-pack. I think it's easier for a man to be a hottie over time than it is for a woman (short of cosmetic surgeries).



Women are often (if not usually) most attracted to qualities that don't include a six-pack or a chiseled Hollywood face. This includes very good-looking women. Where do you meet couples? What kinds of clubs do you go to? Do you happen to be attending groups/clubs where inclusion into the group requires that you pass a certain standard physical appearance? Just curious.



I'm most attracted to men that fit the description of how you described yourself. I'm not into GQ models or Brad Pitt-types. I'm most attracted to men who are fit & healthy, intelligent and fun, well-groomed and dressed nice. I don't like "pretty" men. In fact, I've turned a few down like that.

Tybee Swing you are starting to sound like my wife You do bring up some great points and I did have a little bit of a revelation but I don't know if it is a good thing or not. For starters I do need to say that I have not been living in a sexual wasteland and I have had my share of successes. I am in my early 40s and I have had some early 20something cuties come cuddling up to me at times so it's not like I am getting shoved in the corner or having sand kicked in my face by the jocks. As far as the revelation, you are correct I did attract my wife and we have had many years of happy marriage. I see what you are saying and it is helpfull and encouraging but here is the catch, it took me months to get my wife to give me the time of day and many more months before she decided to date me. In a lifestyle setting I don't have that kind of time!!!!!! I have no problem putting in time and effort into fostering chemistry and comfort but lets face it swinging is leisure time for a lot of us and it is very limited. I have heard it said quite often that a women knows if she is going to go to bed with a guy in the first 30 seconds she meets him. I am not a 30 second kind of guy (in more ways than one I assure you facelick ) We are often fortunate if we get out to a LS function once a month. I guess what I am looking for is some kind of nuts and bolts things that I can do short of cosmetic surgery that will make me more interesting to the female halves of couples so that my wife and I are on a little more level playing field.

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by arvcpl

I see what you are saying and it is helpfull and encouraging but here is the catch, it took me months to get my wife to give me the time of day and many more months before she decided to date me. In a lifestyle setting I don't have that kind of time!!!!!!

Wow, I see what you mean. I think you are most attracted to "out of your league" types, because you spent many months working on getting your wife's attention, and many more just to get a date with her. I think that most men would have felt more comfortable pursuing a woman who wasn't so hard to get. Perhaps you are the kind of guy that enjoys challenges like that. Nothing wrong with that, it's just the way you're wired - and you were obviously successful at it.

And yet, it seemed that you'd be fine with playmates who aren't at the hotness level of your wife. You'd like to play with women who aren't so hard to get - women "in your league", as you put it. So, here is a thought, and this works for many other couples. What if while you're at house parties and/or at clubs with couples whom you both know & approve of, your wife can choose her play partners, you choose yours, and you don't necessarily have to play with only other couples married to each other? This way, one couple doesn't have to meet the tastes of both of you? I don't mean "open marriage" or totally playing separately, necessarily. It would just give a wider selection in who you can play with. It could level the playing field between you and your wife.

What does your wife say about all of this?

[iapr]

Originally Posted by arvcpl

I guess what I am looking for is some kind of nuts and bolts things that I can do short of cosmetic surgery that will make me more interesting to the female halves of couples so that my wife and I are on a little more level playing field.

I hate to break it to ya but that ain't never gonna happen. No man can ever match the sexual opportunities of any woman...ever. Let me put it this way, earlier you mentioned Brad Pitt, even if Brad Pitt was partnered with Rosey Odonnel she would still blow him out of the water. Granted he would have far more opportunities than a normal Joe but if he and Rosey got into a head to head competition she would leave him coughing in the dust. Women are prettier, sexier, softer and less threatening than men. In much of the animal kingdom it is the males that are the pretty ones but in humans it is the females that are pretty while the males are plain. Come to think of it, the reason that males are eye catching in the animal world is so predators will swoop down and eat them instead of the females and babies in the nest so maybe this plain thing isn't so bad after all

I have been following this thread and it is striking a cord with me as well and I am right there with you brother and know exactly where you are coming from. The bad news is as I said above and you and her will never be equals. And while chicups post was painfull to read it probably is right on the money. If you are expecting to be able to walk into a room and pick out a chick and head off for some hot sex in a matter of minutes forget it. That may work for a few rock stars and Calvin Klein models but not for the other 99.99999% of the male population. The rest of us have to pay our dues and put in our time. The truth is most men are attracted to most women to one degree or another but most women are not at all attracted to most men. How many times a day do you hear women say, "what does she see in him?" Have you ever once heard a guy say, "what does he see in her?" No, cause you know exactly what he sees in her, she has big hooters and a nice ass


The good news is that while men are simple and straight forward, women are kind of funny and you never know what will set them off. If you are looking the right way and doing the right things at the right time and place some gal is going to get a hot flash and jump your bones. It just isn't going to happen every time.

The next time you go to a LS club take a look around and see what people are doing. The gals are dancing with each other, flirting with each other, schoozing each other and supporting and giving compliments to each other and focusing on each other.

In the mean time what are the guys doing? More often than not they are in little clusters in the back with their drinks at their chests and they are talking about football and trucks and lawnmowers. That's damn sexy isn't it?

My nuts and bolts advice is look like a real man (real men don't look pretty) but act more like a bisexual chick. That's right keep doing what you are doing as far as dress and grooming but act more like the chicks do and get out and dance no matter how pathetic you are at it (they will appreciate the effort) and flirt with them and shower them with attention and make sincere compliments and talk to them about anything/nothing and try to actually pay attention to what they are saying and what their feelings behind what they are saying actually are (I know that Y chromosome we all carry makes that very difficult but with training and discipline it can be done.)

This will absolutely not work 100% of the time. If I had the answer I'd write my own book make a zillion dollars and then head off to an island with all the hot chicks for myself so you would still be back at square one anyway. But if you do the best that you can do and be the best that you can you will have some success (which sounds like you already are). Hope this helps.

[sereneiders]

I am far from Brad Pitt myself so... I compensate

Now, seriously, I believe there's a self steem issue here, but not focused on an undersertimation of your assests, but on a overestimation of other people's assests.

Not being Brad Pitt myself, but having a wife who does it better than me, I find myself in the same situation. Perhaps the difference was, we had this poly relationship with this redhead able to stop the traffic, and the three of us used to went to the club togheter for more than a year, so I figure out this called other's people attention, something like "this guy should have something as to be able to come here with those great looking ladies", and I was able to notice this... curiosity, even from those women who wouldn't give a dime for me anywhere else.

Now, my point is, I had my share of fun with those women "shacking the earth", as long with the ones "in my league", and it reaches a point where you stop granting that much credit to the aesthetics, moreover when any of those women are in the menu, at any time, as to be able to pick up from the variety. And what I found out is that people in other leages, indeed, compensate it. For example, they appreciate way more to be chosen than the ones who give for granted you'll choose them, they make an effor to develop other skills to seduce you (like your social skills), to make it worth the experience, and it often happens that it worths A LOT.

So, the same applies to me (or, for the case, to you). Those women able to stop the traffic also appreciate other things beyond the way you look. If they have enough experience, they may even look for people like me and you, out of her leage, just because they know we'll compensate and make it worth for them... if a Bo Derek were giving you the chance to get laid with her, wouldn't you do your best to ensure you'll have another chance to do it again? And probaily a Brad Pitt wouldn't need to, right?

And the fact is, when you see who goes upstaris at the club to play with who, that there aren't leagues. The few people who attempt to keep in a league, ends up isolated, playing with the same people over and over. At least here such a behavior would be ill seen.

So, I believe there is a matter of attitude that's more important than the way you look. Once you're convinced of this argument, your body language start telling others you're worth to have fun with, and the whole "how I look" issue just vanishes.

And I am pretty convinced that your "sweat" you current concerns when in front of others, that you body language tells them "hey, I am not Brad Pitt, I am out of your league, I have nothing to offer to you". And people reads your body language and buy it all the time. So you remain entangled, trapped, just because you're the (only) one making an issue from this.

[FloridaFlirt]

Wow, arvcpl, I haven't seen your pic and I'm already attracted to you!

Seriously, you are the kind of guy that catches my eye usually. I prefer good grooming, good conversation and charm over any "pretty" aspect. Oh, and if you dance, that is also a HUGE plus!

I'm glad to hear you don't "take one for the team." I used to do that in the early days, but no more! It only leads to resentment.

One question: is it possible that YOUR standards are too high?

[arvcpl]

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

Wow, I see what you mean. I think you are most attracted to "out of your league" types, because you spent many months working on getting your wife's attention, and many more just to get a date with her. I think that most men would have felt more comfortable pursuing a woman who wasn't so hard to get. Perhaps you are the kind of guy that enjoys challenges like that. Nothing wrong with that, it's just the way you're wired - and you were obviously successful at it.

And yet, it seemed that you'd be fine with playmates who aren't at the hotness level of your wife. You'd like to play with women who aren't so hard to get - women "in your league", as you put it. So, here is a thought, and this works for many other couples. What if while you're at house parties and/or at clubs with couples whom you both know & approve of, your wife can choose her play partners, you choose yours, and you don't necessarily have to play with only other couples married to each other? This way, one couple doesn't have to meet the tastes of both of you? I don't mean "open marriage" or totally playing separately, necessarily. It would just give a wider selection in who you can play with. It could level the playing field between you and your wife.

What does your wife say about all of this?

This is actually some great advice. I am not sure we are at the stage in our lifestyle where we can comfortably do what it is you are suggesting but it does make a lot of sense and it would be solution in many ways if we could actually pull it off.
Also I don't think that I am inordinantly attracted to people out of my league and I really don't see it as a challenge or anything. the reason I pursued my wife to the degree I did is that I knew deep in my gut that she was "the one" and she was the one for many reasons other than she was beautiful. I have happily dated other less attractive and would be fine with doing so again if I was ever single again. I am not really all that hung up on looks and I don't think of myself as superficial. Sure we all appreciate a beautiful woman and I am no different but as long as someone is spotlessly clean and well groomed and of a healthy ht/wt proportion I can always find something desireable in just about everyone. As far as what my wife thinks, well she pretty much thinks I am clear crazy on several counts. See says that I am one of the hot guys too but that is her job to say that. She also thinks I am crazy when I take an interest in a woman that is not at least as attractive as she is. I have told her if I am limited to only women that are as attractive or more attractive than her I will have very slim pickings to begin with. I have suggested that we try some singles instead of just couples that way we can each try to find people we are comfortable with but she has scoffed at that idea and is mostly interested in couples only.

[ShellyM]

IAPR,
I read your post and it was interesting. I do have to agree with you in that women tend to be MUCH MUCH pickier than men. Now, in swinging I am much more liberal than I would be in a dating situation. If the hubby is minimally cute and has a good personality he is usually cool with me because we aren't in this for relationships. Its about sex here. If I were dating it would be he attracts me first, then we go into personality. But yes, there are lots of men that I look at and its a NO. We women know what we like, and with me there is either an attraction or there isn't. Men? Well, they are guys. Jay does have standards of course, but they are much, much more relaxed than mine. So usually when we choose a couple its run by me first, and then Jay gives his determination. And the other couple is doing the same with us. This is why its so hard for 2 couples to get together, its very hard to get 4 people with an attraction.
Shelly

[arvcpl]

Originally Posted by FloridaFlirt

Wow, arvcpl, I haven't seen your pic and I'm already attracted to you!

Seriously, you are the kind of guy that catches my eye usually. I prefer good grooming, good conversation and charm over any "pretty" aspect. Oh, and if you dance, that is also a HUGE plus!

I'm glad to hear you don't "take one for the team." I used to do that in the early days, but no more! It only leads to resentment.

One question: is it possible that YOUR standards are too high?

I don't think my standards are too high at all. I am quite comfortable around a wide variety of people of different bady sizes and shapes and levels of attractiveness. As long as someone is reasonably HWP and all polished up I can find something attractive about them as long as they aren't a creep or something. The issue isn't so much me not attracting the women I am attracted to the issue is more my wife and I are mismatched in the couples we want to get together with. The guys that she likes often have partners that are out of my league and don't have an interest in me and the women that I do attract usually have partners that my wife is not interested in. Thank you for the for the nice words by the way, you can really make a guy blush