I want the wife, but my wife isn't ready to do the husband

[intuition897]

I hate to say it, but it seems to me that the others are right: more talking. You're probably so sick of talking by now that you both want to puke, but I would suggest branching out into different areas of conversation. If you feel that there's nothing left to talk about, yet you're still having a problem, you're wrong. Until you're both able to read one another's minds new stuff will crop up every day.

I would suggest aiming straight for the most sensitive and difficult to discuss topics. The more uncomfortable and awkward it is to talk about, the better. THAT's the stuff that needs sorting out. For example, you could say to your wife exactly how you feel: "I get annoyed when you give me all these little excuses for not moving forward when I know there's a bigger reason behind it. So what is it? Why, exactly, don't you want to move forward with this?" Or maybe just sharing how you feel about your dilemma will help: "I'm really frustrated and feeling torn. On one side, I can see this great adventure we both could be having, seeing how it can add to what we have already, and add to our own selves - I can't lie to you; it's really exciting that another attractive woman finds me this attractive, and I would love to explore that further - but you know that I love you, and I don't want to see you do anything that would hurt you. And if it makes you sad, or makes you feel dirty or degraded somehow, that hurts you. I just don't understand why you would feel that way?"

Often when people write a post to the board outlining their problem, they state it very clearly and concisely and in a level-headed and mature way. They're trying to get complete strangers to understand what is happening in their lives. And quite often the OP is advised to bring his or her spouse to the board so he or she can read what was written...by the OP! Not by the people on the board! We're just mirrors to bounce ideas off of. We can't fix anyone's problems...not even close. All we can do is maybe offer some perspective. We often suggest getting one's spouse to read one's post because they have stated exactly the things that needed to be said to him or her. Give it a try, and see what happens.

[Darkblue]

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

Hi Steve, one of the things that's been bugging you is that you feel your wife has gone further along in swinging than you have been able to so far. You're chomping at the bit to get to that other woman, and this idea that your wife has gone further is annoying you.

I just wanted to explain more about soft swap. With two women, there's kissing, touching, and oral (all soft) - that's it. If you're soft swapping with the opposite sex, it's the same thing - you'd be kissing, touching, and using your mouth on a woman (and her with you). Right? This is why girl/girl is considered soft play. And like you said, most men love to watch it, so that's what the men get out of it.

So in my mind (for what it's worth), your wife has just been doing soft play so far, just as you have. When you cross over to swapping partners for intercourse, that's when you'll both be all the way there to full swap.

Personally, I think your wife's concerns we've heard are all valid ones. We all worry about STD's at some point, worry if the condom will break, etc. We especially worry if our relationship will change and never be able to go back, or if some damage will be done. We are all different in how quickly or slowly we jump into these things. So, please don't compare your wife to other women who may have said they dove right in. Since you've known your wife for 24 years, you know it's her nature to need to feel thinggs along gradually, it's her way. You love her more than anything, so for her comfort and happiness, you know she needs your patience through this. It's a BIG step for you as a couple, right? And remember, she's never been with another man other than you in her life; that's a big step for a woman. It will happen, because she wants to go in this direction, but you can't push her. Trust me, the whole experience will be much better for all parties if it only happens when she's ready.

Good luck.

STOP It sdoesnt bug me that she has gone further than I, I am happy that she has gone so far!!I love it that she has come out of her shell a bit further, my time will come and i can wait if i have to!!


Soft swopping with a female?? when does that become full swop I mean they way i see it they cant have intercourse so in theory it never going to be anything else than soft swop, that does not make sence to me sorry...


I did´nt say that her concerns(STD ect) were not valid they are but then again if you use them as an excuse then thats wrong we all know that life is full of risk´s all you can do is to take all reasonable precautions possible.


if i was going to go ahead with this no matter what i wouldnt be posting here asking for help and advice and the views of others!! I dont want to hurt her in anyway whatsoever,i do love her more than anything else in the world and nothing will ever change that..

Originally Posted by intuition897

I hate to say it, but it seems to me that the others are right: more talking. You're probably so sick of talking by now that you both want to puke, but I would suggest branching out into different areas of conversation. If you feel that there's nothing left to talk about, yet you're still having a problem, you're wrong. Until you're both able to read one another's minds new stuff will crop up every day.

I would suggest aiming straight for the most sensitive and difficult to discuss topics. The more uncomfortable and awkward it is to talk about, the better. THAT's the stuff that needs sorting out. For example, you could say to your wife exactly how you feel: "I get annoyed when you give me all these little excuses for not moving forward when I know there's a bigger reason behind it. So what is it? Why, exactly, don't you want to move forward with this?" Or maybe just sharing how you feel about your dilemma will help: "I'm really frustrated and feeling torn. On one side, I can see this great adventure we both could be having, seeing how it can add to what we have already, and add to our own selves - I can't lie to you; it's really exciting that another attractive woman finds me this attractive, and I would love to explore that further - but you know that I love you, and I don't want to see you do anything that would hurt you. And if it makes you sad, or makes you feel dirty or degraded somehow, that hurts you. I just don't understand why you would feel that way?"

Often when people write a post to the board outlining their problem, they state it very clearly and concisely and in a level-headed and mature way. They're trying to get complete strangers to understand what is happening in their lives. And quite often the OP is advised to bring his or her spouse to the board so he or she can read what was written...by the OP! Not by the people on the board! We're just mirrors to bounce ideas off of. We can't fix anyone's problems...not even close. All we can do is maybe offer some perspective. We often suggest getting one's spouse to read one's post because they have stated exactly the things that needed to be said to him or her. Give it a try, and see what happens.

I have told her thousands of times that her little excuses for not going further and i also explain to her why i feel that way, if i could find a valid reason not to move forward then i would!! If she doesnt not want to go further than soft swop then fine but i wont be happy as i dont like to stand and tread water, i think if this was to happen then i dont see the point of swinging as i wouldnt be happy but she would..
I certainly wont push!! but there have been developements since i started this thread!! were getting there slowly but surely!!and we havent stopped talking!!

[intuition897]

But did you find out WHY she is so against full swap? Is it safety concerns? Diseases? Pregnancy? Religious conflict? Ethical conflict? Concerns about possible damage it can do to your relationship? Losing your jobs/friends if you were "outed"? Worried about the kids being scarred for life if they found out? You name a concern and it's been dealt with on here. Asked and answered a dozen times over.

Mr. intuition and I (although we're not active right now) were a full-swap couple, so I can sympathize. I can also understand how Mrs. darkblue is feeling, too, because I was the one in her shoes about 7 years ago. Mr. intuition brought up the idea of swinging and, while I was intrigued, I also had to deal with a great deal of inner conflict. I was raised in a conservative Christian home, where sex wasn't even talked about. I am still a Christian today, and I feel a much stronger Christian at that, but I had to choose to undergo a great deal of scary re-programming. I had to question everything I was brought up to believe. I had to learn to reject what my parents, whom I love dearly, had taught me about what was right and wrong with regard to love, marriage, sex and God. I had to learn to trust my own judgment and not rely on the misunderstandings, and misinterpretations of others, because when it comes right down to it, not one single human being is any better or worse than another. Who we are is only partly the result of genetics; the bulk of our personalities is made up of our reactions to a lifetime of experiences. When a king has a bad experience, he is more likely to judge that it is a bad experience for the rest of his kingdom as well. Hence he declares a new law be written banning anyone from doing anything that would be associated with said bad experience. Families are like small kingdoms. The heads of the household read the king's book of laws, and because they were told by their parents (the heads of their households) that it was good to listen to the king (because he must be wise, if he's good enough to be king, after all), they take the king's book of laws to heart and obey them. Not because it's right and true, but simply because it was written by a king.

Maybe that's why swingers are thought to be out of their minds for doing what they do: we defy the "authoritative" word on life, love, sex and marriage, and say, "Oh yeah? Well what the hell makes YOU such an expert? You've never even tried it and can't even speak from experience." When we tell them to PROVE that monogamy is better than consensual non-monogamy, they start to trip up. And they can't PROVE that non-monogamy/swinging/the lifestyle is harmful to the person, the couple, the family or to society, much as they'd like to. "Why is it so wrong?" we ask. Invariably, when you back them into a corner, the answer is, "Well...because it is!" But I've never heard a valid argument yet that would convince me that sexual non-exclusivity in a marriage is sinful or harmful if it is gone about the right way. Quite the contrary in fact.

Did I just hijack your thread?

EDIT>> I'd also like to mention that one of the best things Mr. intuition did for me during this time was to back off and allow me the time and space to explore my curiosity about the lifestyle at my own pace, without pressure, and without any fear. Under pressure, the fear wins and crushes budding curiosity. Mr. intuition made it clear that this was something that he was definitely interested in, but could take it or leave it. It wasn't something he NEEDED to do. He was just curious and game to try it...if I wanted to. The process took many months, but during this time, he never pushed. He just made sure to let me know that it was an idea that was on his back burner. A kink. A fantasy. It didn't have to happen, but it would be nice if it did. He knew me well enough to know that I was adventurous and brave enough to try new things, so he trusted me enough to let me reach my own conclusions about it, and he didn't try to lead me. The patience and respect that he showed during this time only went in his favour, as it built my trust in him, which was essential to having a good first (and second and third...) experience.

[MoonLightKiss]

I agree with Intuition. You are probably ready to puke up talking, but it seems that more communication needs to happen. You probably are not quite ready for full swap. However, the fact that you communicate well already will certainly help you move in that direction if it is an option for the future. Pushing however, will have the opposite effect, and causes people to dig their heels in and refuse to move.

There is a saying here that I have found to be so true, move at the pace of the slowest person. This is so important to hold onto. Also, bring her here and let her see the posts. Sometimes when communicating orally, we lose track of thoughts that are important, while writing them we can make them more clear and objective. It is also good for her if she has concerns such as pregnancies, STD's or whatnot. She can post all her concerns here, and she will find that many of us relate to them. Sometimes not feeling alone helps more than solving the problem.

You two are going to be fine. Just remember to keep talking.

All my best,
MLK

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by intuition897

I'd also like to mention that one of the best things Mr. intuition did for me during this time was to back off and allow me the time and space to explore my curiosity about the lifestyle at my own pace, without pressure, and without any fear. Under pressure, the fear wins and crushes budding curiosity. Mr. intuition made it clear that this was something that he was definitely interested in, but could take it or leave it. It wasn't something he NEEDED to do. He was just curious and game to try it...if I wanted to. The process took many months, but during this time, he never pushed. He just made sure to let me know that it was an idea that was on his back burner. A kink. A fantasy. It didn't have to happen, but it would be nice if it did. He knew me well enough to know that I was adventurous and brave enough to try new things, so he trusted me enough to let me reach my own conclusions about it, and he didn't try to lead me. The patience and respect that he showed during this time only went in his favour, as it built my trust in him, which was essential to having a good first (and second and third...) experience.

Dito This is the reason it's worked out for us, too. I'm assured that this lifestyle isn't that big of a deal, and us going back to "just us" will be perfectly fine, if at any time either one of us wants or needs to stop. It's the way he really feels about it, which is why I have a comfort zone about being in this.

[Darkblue]

Originally Posted by intuition897

But did you find out WHY she is so against full swap? Is it safety concerns? Diseases? Pregnancy? Religious conflict? Ethical conflict? Concerns about possible damage it can do to your relationship? Losing your jobs/friends if you were "outed"? Worried about the kids being scarred for life if they found out? You name a concern and it's been dealt with on here. Asked and answered a dozen times over.

.

Were not worried about being outed,if it happens then tough we will get to that hurdle when it happens were both aware of the problems that might come with it.

Religion doesnt come in to it we are not religious at all..

She is against a full swop because as she say´s she feels she would be losing something that she gave me as i am the only one she has ever been with.

Pregnancy is a possibility and we have spoken about this and we have both decided if this does happe then an abortion is a NO NO!
STDs well it can happen and we both know where the Doctors surgery is!

We are still talking and will continue to do so!! at the moment i am losing the urge to do anything with the other woman in fact any woman!!.

Thanks again everyone its good to know that theres someone there that will help and give advice..


Steve and Susanne!

[Darkblue]

Its a great pity that the Wifecant post what she feel on the forum (her English isnt good enough and i cant translate for her as might well be bias without realising it)
Things are progressing and we are getting there, the couple came here tonight for some coffee and talk and she and Mr A got on fine but i have feel guilty just looking at her and the kick has gone,I dont know what i want anymore,am i coming or am i going?.

Could this be because of all the talking? i still like her dont get me wrong..

So i am going to have to play this by ear now!!with my luck the wife will go full swop and i will feel so guilty i wont be able to even if i want to.. but thats life i guess!!to be honest at the moment i am totaly naffed off....but no worrys tomorrow is another day.

Steve

Why do things have to be complicated in life?

[getnit2gethr]

I feel you man. Give it time, it's all you can do. Many problems in life turn out to be no problem at all after a little time. I work on difficult problems every day. Sometimes I beat my head against the wall for hours and get nowhere. Eventually I give up and think about something else and suddenly the solution will come magically to mind. Right now you're chained to an idea and maybe your not seeing the big picture. It's also possible that a solution will never come. Don't waste your time. Free yourself. Focus on a new goal and see what happens.

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by Darkblue

She is against a full swop because as she say´s she feels she would be losing something that she gave me as i am the only one she has ever been with.

Well...she still gave it to you. You were the first one there, right? Is she afraid that that is all she has to offer you? I've never met Susanne, but I am sure that she has a multitude of things to offer that go far beyond sex. It sounds like the old separating-love-and-sex problem. The good news is that this is something that can be resolved. The bad news is that she has to want to resolve it.

Right now, she sees your suggestion to swing as you giving back a gift you didn't really like: her sexuality. So she is hurt by this. She wonders if her gift of sexual fidelity is not good enough. It's a bit like her going to the store and picking out something for you very carefully, putting much time and effort into choosing just the right thing and wrapping it perfectly...then when you open your present, you come right out and say, "Well that's nice, but I think I'll take it back to the store and get a XYZ instead." XYZ being something she saw in the store but considered too cheap and tacky to give you.

I just remember being in her shoes. I felt that my sexual fidelity was the most precious thing I could give Mr. intuition, but I was wrong. I discovered that the most precious thing I could give to him was the freedom to demonstrate how much he loved me. That meant putting aside my insecurities and trusting him when he told me he would never intentionally hurt me, and allowing him to prove that the charms of other women had no effect on his feelings for or respect for me.

So now, sex is just another bodily function. We no longer allow sex to control us or the fate of our relationship. The burden this removes from our shoulders has been enormous, and it's the best thing about swinging.

[Darkblue]

Originally Posted by getnit2gethr

I feel you man. Give it time, it's all you can do. Many problems in life turn out to be no problem at all after a little time. I work on difficult problems every day. Sometimes I beat my head against the wall for hours and get nowhere. Eventually I give up and think about something else and suddenly the solution will come magically to mind. Right now you're chained to an idea and maybe your not seeing the big picture. It's also possible that a solution will never come. Don't waste your time. Free yourself. Focus on a new goal and see what happens.

Well we had another great long talk yesterday and we are getting there, I feel guilty just looking at the other woman, i dont want to hurt Susanne in anyway whatsoever and if i can avoid it i will.
She is now telling me that she doent have a problem if i go and play with another woman but now i have a problem that i feel guilty about the idea.. i do need break and i will just play things as they go, I dont see any other way around this,if see that Susanne isnt happy about anything i do then i will just take a step back..

getnit2gethr
Thankyou very very much for your input you have helped a lot and i will try to focus on something new..

Originally Posted by intuition897

Well...she still gave it to you. You were the first one there, right? Is she afraid that that is all she has to offer you? I've never met Susanne, but I am sure that she has a multitude of things to offer that go far beyond sex. It sounds like the old separating-love-and-sex problem. The good news is that this is something that can be resolved. The bad news is that she has to want to resolve it.

Right now, she sees your suggestion to swing as you giving back a gift you didn't really like: her sexuality. So she is hurt by this. She wonders if her gift of sexual fidelity is not good enough. It's a bit like her going to the store and picking out something for you very carefully, putting much time and effort into choosing just the right thing and wrapping it perfectly...then when you open your present, you come right out and say, "Well that's nice, but I think I'll take it back to the store and get a XYZ instead." XYZ being something she saw in the store but considered too cheap and tacky to give you.

I just remember being in her shoes. I felt that my sexual fidelity was the most precious thing I could give Mr. intuition, but I was wrong. I discovered that the most precious thing I could give to him was the freedom to demonstrate how much he loved me. That meant putting aside my insecurities and trusting him when he told me he would never intentionally hurt me, and allowing him to prove that the charms of other women had no effect on his feelings for or respect for me.

So now, sex is just another bodily function. We no longer allow sex to control us or the fate of our relationship. The burden this removes from our shoulders has been enormous, and it's the best thing about swinging.

intuition897

I have always been so very proud to be able to say I was Susanne first and no one can ever take that away from US and i make sure that Susanne knows this!! i gave the same advice to my Daughter telling her she can only give her virginty once and it should be to someone special, she then went out and finished with her then Boyfriend because he wasnt that special person, we are open about things in this family and both my kids know they can come to us with any problems they might have..


"It sounds like the old separating-love-and-sex problem."

You have hit the nail on the head!! she cant or wont seperate love and Lust-Sex.
I make love to my wife, i would be having Sex with another woman two different things!!

(Quote)
I discovered that the most precious thing I could give to him was the freedom to demonstrate how much he loved me. That meant putting aside my insecurities and trusting him when he told me he would never intentionally hurt me, and allowing him to prove that the charms of other women had no effect on his feelings for or respect for me.(
end quote)

This is what i am telling Susanne every day,it has to do with Sex and lust not with love, she says she trust´s me 100% but i am unsure if she really does i trust her 110% i always have done..

Thank you as well you have given me some good advise and you are one hell of a person to open up and to tell me/us of your previous Problems,i guess this is one of those ever returning problems for newbies!!


Steve

PS after more talking were getting there but she still isnt to be moved on her No full swop, i just dont know anymore,i feel she is hiding from her own sexuality as she does show an interest and does say she´s not totaly against a full swop but the next sentence she say´s its a No way thing?? now wheres that brick wall!!
Women who can understand them I cant!! in fact i bet non of the guys here do either

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by Darkblue

This is what i am telling Susanne every day,it has to do with Sex and lust not with love, she says she trust´s me 100% but i am unsure if she really does i trust her 110% i always have done.

Yeah, this takes trust to a whole new level, one that many people have great difficulty grasping. I think it's a level of trust on the deepest, most "real" level. It's easy to say that you trust someone, but when it comes right down to it, when it comes time to turn the noun into a verb and actually do the trusting, it's different story. And the response is something like, "What? You mean trust you right NOW?" It's a matter of taking the promises we say and making them actually happen. It can be a real unpleasant slap in the face because we're then forced to confront ourselves: did we really mean what we said?

Originally Posted by Darkblue

PS after more talking were getting there but she still isnt to be moved on her No full swop, i just dont know anymore,i feel she is hiding from her own sexuality as she does show an interest and does say she´s not totaly against a full swop but the next sentence she say´s its a No way thing?? now wheres that brick wall!!
Women who can understand them I cant!! in fact i bet non of the guys here do either

Yeah, women are pretty bitchy and high-maintenance. It sort of explains why my bi-curiosity was a passing phase. I just can't relate to them as well as I can to men.

Best thing I could suggest is to just agree to only do soft-swap, and make it clear that if she wishes to explore further, you are completely supportive of that, and are ready whenever she is. The rest is the hard part: the waiting.

Best of luck to you both.

[Darkblue]

The other couple called off our Club visit two hours before we were due to go.

Now get this Quote from wife, "I wonder if its because i couldnt decide whether i wanted to have Sex with Mr A ??" end quote. not a bad statement considering she´s been saying its a definate NO NO !!!


Steve
The one who is about to jump off the nearest roof of a Barbie doll house...

[ShellyM]

Originally Posted by Darkblue

The other couple called off our Club visit two hours before we were due to go.

Now get this Quote from wife, "I wonder if its because i couldnt decide whether i wanted to have Sex with Mr A ??" end quote. not a bad statement considering she´s been saying its a definate NO NO !!!


Steve
The one who is about to jump off the nearest roof of a Barbie doll house...

Again, communication! Sit down with her and talk it out.

[Darkblue]

Talk talk talk that all we do at the moment!!
She say´s one thing then something else the next!! thats what doing my head in

I´m sure we will get there in the end! one way or the other!


Steve

And once again many many thanks to you all!!you have helped us a lot more than you think!!

[friskymonkey]

I'm going to switch and suggest a different tack: Stop talking about it!

It sounds like she's pretty confused and you're pretty frustrated. If you're just going around and around then nothing's getting done.

I started thinking that (and maybe you're not doing this, maybe you're venting here more than at home) if my husband was talking and talking about full swap swinging I'd be getting more and more turned off to the idea. I'd be wanting him to give it a rest! I'd be sick of hearing about how much he wants to jump this other woman and how turned on he is by her and how he knows what I want even if I don't and how everyone would be knee deep in ecstasy right now if only I wasn't the one holding up the show.

Mrs. Steve can certainly speak for herself but I'm *always* the slowest member of the foursome and I can tell you that there's pressure there. Even if everyone's being nice and no one's nagging.

I love what Intuition said, I would go back to soft swap and have fun. Let your wife know that you're ready for full swap when she is but otherwise, don't keep bringing it up. I know waiting is hard but the last thing you want is for her to go too far before she's ready and regret it.