My wife has a double standard and may be cheating, too

[leftcoastcouple]

I'm sure I'm in a teensy-tiny minority here, but this situation, unfortunate as it is, exhibits why I've never been able to understand the "permission" approach most folks take to swinging. In the end, we're all individuals and free spirits, and if you're secure enough to agree that your partner can have sex with others under certain conditions, then what gives you the right to dictate those conditions?

I feel that once you've said "OK" to allowing your partner to be with others, it's not fair to say only when you want, with whom you want, etc. That turns it into a power struggle, and it seems inevitable that the partner with the stronger will is going to dictate what happens--and bad feelings are going to result.

If, on the other hand, both partners agree that all is OK as long as it's above board and there are no secrets, then no one feels manipulated or controlled. Or, to put it another way, if naughtycool's wife wanted to sleep with their friend, and they as a couple have been swinging for nearly a decade, why does he get to decide if that friend was OK on that night and in that setting?

I agree that the way his wife went about it was deceptive (at least by his telling of the evening's events) and not in the best interest of them as a couple. Had Mrs. LC said "I'm not going to" and then left me alone with "stuff in the freezer," I'd have been hurt--but not because she had sex with our friend, just how she'd gone about it.

One thing I'm not clear on is whether, if she'd asked beforehand, it would have been OK with you, naughtycool, if your wife had slept with this friend. If your answer is "yes," then I can understand where you're coming from. But if it's "no," then you've validated my confusion.

Trust is absolute, at least for me and Mrs. LC. If we can trust one another together, we can trust one another alone. And it's from that perspective that we approach swinging, period.

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by leftcoastcouple

I'm sure I'm in a teensy-tiny minority here, but this situation, unfortunate as it is, exhibits why I've never been able to understand the "permission" approach most folks take to swinging. In the end, we're all individuals and free spirits, and if you're secure enough to agree that your partner can have sex with others under certain conditions, then what gives you the right to dictate those conditions?

I feel that once you've said "OK" to allowing your partner to be with others, it's not fair to say only when you want, with whom you want, etc. That turns it into a power struggle, and it seems inevitable that the partner with the stronger will is going to dictate what happens--and bad feelings are going to result.

I think the difference is between willingly handing your partner the reins and complying with their wishes out of respect, or straining at the bit and always resenting your partner for imposing his/her wishes on you.

To me, any time swinging becomes something to do with satisfying some kind of itch that you can't scratch for each other - that it becomes something about 'sexual freedom' - you're looking for trouble. It's about freedom to choose, not freedom to act. I get this silly analogy in my head: Your neighbour has a Christmas tree farm. He says go ahead and choose any tree you like, and cut it down. No charge. Would you clear-cut the whole damn field because he gave you permission to cut one tree?

It's true that we are all individuals and free to do as we please. But we need to realize that some of our actions and decisions will make us unsuitable to those with whom we share relationships. Our partners have given us the freedom to choose. Sex isn't the issue; it's simply the medium. The issue is, in fact, respect for one's partner. Callous disregard for his or her feelings on the matter are what count, not the fact that sex occurred.

It sounds to me like Naughtycool's wife has forgotten that Naughtycool has given her a gift, and she has abused its priveleges. Priveleges, not rights.

[curiousagain]

Originally Posted by Naughtycool

We discussed it told her I was hurt becasue she did not let me know and we planned on the next Sat. to have a date night at home alone- which ended up being changed by her- the converstation that took place that night was that basically there are no more rules in (or out)the lifestyle and that I could do whatever I wanted with whomever and she actually challenged me to find a sex partner- So opinions please- I she sincere or just talking out her ass because she might have some guilt? Quite confused
Naughtycool

While it has been pointed out that we are only getting one side, there are possibly communication issues, etc. the above quote is a world of information. That challenge tells me all I need to know. The wife figures the world is her oyster and her husband couldn't get laid if he paid for it and he's just holding her back in the lifestyle and in life. My advice would be to follow JNCC's advice and while doing so, remember that living well is the best revenge.

[BodyScape02]

Originally Posted by leftcoastcouple

I feel that once you've said "OK" to allowing your partner to be with others, it's not fair to say only when you want, with whom you want, etc. That turns it into a power struggle, and it seems inevitable that the partner with the stronger will is going to dictate what happens--and bad feelings are going to result.

If, on the other hand, both partners agree that all is OK as long as it's above board and there are no secrets, then no one feels manipulated or controlled. Or, to put it another way, if naughtycool's wife wanted to sleep with their friend, and they as a couple have been swinging for nearly a decade, why does he get to decide if that friend was OK on that night and in that setting?

I agree that the way his wife went about it was deceptive (at least by his telling of the evening's events) and not in the best interest of them as a couple. Had Mrs. LC said "I'm not going to" and then left me alone with "stuff in the freezer," I'd have been hurt--but not because she had sex with our friend, just how she'd gone about it.

One thing I'm not clear on is whether, if she'd asked beforehand, it would have been OK with you, naughtycool, if your wife had slept with this friend. If your answer is "yes," then I can understand where you're coming from. But if it's "no," then you've validated my confusion.

Trust is absolute, at least for me and Mrs. LC. If we can trust one another together, we can trust one another alone. And it's from that perspective that we approach swinging, period.

Wow...leftcoastcouple... has some really great point here... ones I didn't consider and that are very valid.

It would be nice to have both perspectives.

[sereneiders]

I agree with Spoomonkey about there is a communication problem, I definatelly agree with leftcoastcouple, but mostly I agree with LikeMinds321 here, moreover because this brings to another question:

How things manage to reach to this point, and why just at this point you get worried?

I'd say you'd have to ask yourself if there isn't some aspects of things elvolving this way that become enjoyable to you.

I've heard many swingers say the swinging activities are a way to enforce trust and love among partners, because when such activity ends, the way the partners relate to each other afterwards turns into a confirmation of the compromises and the contratc founding the couple, whatever that contract may involve in each case. I personally disagree with this point of view but it may ve a valid way to feed the relation, where the swinging activity acts like a rupture threat and the confirmation that the rupture didn't happend afterwards convalidate the relationship grounds.

From this perspective, the problem here could be a lack of convalidation for these grounds. If you were aware of the threat as a real one, you wouldn't be saying to her "you're a big girl", so when you said so, I believe you may be raising the bet and daring her to increase the threat risk, and once she did so, the already well known convalidation proccess may not be enough for you.

So my question is wheter the problem is the threat risk increase or the convalidation proccess, because it seems you were asking for the risk increment, and perhaps you ask for this secretelly craving for a new element in the convalidation proccess, so when you don't get it, you feel yourself torn appart.

If you expected her not to have sex, you'd be saying her "say no, and come home so we have a dinner togheter". That give her no space for speculations on what you're expecting, and if she have sex, clearly she would be cheating on you, but you didn't put things this way, realying all you expectations on her "common sense", so once you gave up your right to say "no", it seems you wanted some sort of love proof from her you didn't got. Why should she gess you're in need of such a love proof?

At this point, I believe that in order to try to provide some clever advice it'd be required to hear the other bell, and counting with your version alone, i'd ask you if you don't have a double standard yourself, when you keep for yourself all your expectations and then blame on her for not fullfilling them.

I disagree with the opinion about this like facing a rupture, or that you don't have a relationship anymore. Perhaps the grounds of your relationship just shifted and you need to find them in order to rebuild it.

Perhaps at this point you're not swingers. There are couples who enjoy cheating and reconciliating, or to know one of the patners cheats, or perhaps this cheating is the only way she knows at this point to make some statament and slap you face form something else.

So, so far, the only I can say is a lot of perhaps. Sometimes, finding the solution for a problem relay on making yourself good questions.

Why don't you talk with her?

sereneiders

[JnCC]

There are sometimes problems in marriage that are not caused by "poor communication" between the parties, and therefore cannot be resolved by "improving" the communication between the parties.

Besides, people communicate in many ways...some verbal, most not...and the thoughts and feelings that are expressed verbally are not always in agreement with the actions taken by another. When in doubt, most people will trust what the other person does over what they say as a measure of their true feelings or intentions.

I'm beginning to suspect that the OP, like most men, isn't a very good listener. Maybe that's why his wife has chosen to use both verbal and non-verbal methods to express her feelings. By cheating with at least 2 guys that he knows of, and in a way that makes no pretense about her total disregard for whatever "rules" they previously had, she's letting him know in a way that words alone never could, how strongly she feels about him, their marriage, and her plans for her future...a future in which he apparently plays little if any part.

Perhaps it was in case there were any lingering doubts on his part that she told him that she intended to continue screwing whoever she wanted, whenever and however she wanted. The icing on the cake had to be when she then told him to go find somebody else.

Contrary to some, I think the OP's wife is an excellent communicator. In fact, if there's a better way of telling your spouse "It's OVER!" that doesn't involve the use of knives, firearms or woodchippers, I'd like to know what it is.

Who knows or cares "who started what" in the problems they're now facing? It probably doesn't matter anyway. The problem he's confronted with now (and the only one he can do anything about) is that he's hearing what she's telling him, but not listening...

[Spoomonkey]

Well, NaughtyCool, looks like you have two options being presented...

I was a bit surprised at how quickly people advised simply "quitting" on the whole thing and seeing the divorce lawyer - but then I looked at the way their status was listed and figured - makes sense. Quitters quit...

You can take that route, but you definitely know more about the situation than most everyone here. I think the sensitive advice from folks who know nothing of your situation would come from the angle of valuing marriage and making it work. I suppose not everyone shares those values.

That said, I would strongly advise you that before you throw the baby out with the bath water - examine what got the two of you to the place you are and see if there is any way to get back to the place you were. This does take "communication" - a little thing that actually is a miracle worker for those with the balls to try it.

I hate to think of anyone being in a place where they are faced with such a tough situation, but I - for one - sincerely hope that you and your wife get through this intact and in love...

But that's just me...

I have a good marriage, so I tend to hope the best for others...

Spoomonkey

[Naughtycool]

I agree that the way his wife went about it was deceptive (at least by his telling of the evening's events) and not in the best interest of them as a couple. Had Mrs. LC said "I'm not going to" and then left me alone with "stuff in the freezer," I'd have been hurt--but not because she had sex with our friend, just how she'd gone about it.

One thing I'm not clear on is whether, if she'd asked beforehand, it would have been OK with you, naughtycool, if your wife had slept with this friend. If your answer is "yes," then I can understand where you're coming from. But if it's "no," then you've validated my confusion.

So- these two quotes above really sum it up here-another phone call in the midst of dinner reiterated the same reply of "stuff in the freezer and "don't know when I'll be home"- at the time I had just returned home- and was the time I said I would probably be home- and so it wasn't 4 hours home waiting- it was only 3(!) -and ANOTHER phone call from her (2nd one also from the bathroom!) relayed that "I'm getting drunk" and again, "don't know when I'll be home"- so from that point only 2 hours (and 15 min!)passed from that last call
until he dropped her off-
AS for previous behavior of this sort- no--and yes- the original ground rules set- were continually stretched and shattered a long while ago- it's the only
questionable behavior since the previous episode with that single guy and that has been over for a year-
And most curiously here- my question from my original post as to whether she is serious or just blowing it out of her ass has not been answered- I have handled all lifestyle faux pas by my wife so that she changes what her behavior is rather than me imposing my will- basic consideration- yes -that and more honesty from here about her desires would be good- I just have to show her somehow that it is in her best interest for US that she open up more to me- thanks to you all for your input up to this point - some are damn enlightening-
Naughtycool

[Naughtycool]

Originally Posted by BodyScape02

I have to second Spoomonkey on this one... Me too …on both points.


She basically told you...she wants an open marriage... you are being cuckolded. If that is fine with you... then there you are... if not... you have to decide how much self respect you want to loose or how little of it you can live with. That is a very personal choice.

If you want her... you could perhaps try to woo her all over again and provide her with whatever it is she is missing in your relationship that makes her feel valid ( notice I did not say ..is valid) in her choice.

The only insight I can come up with is that , like many women, she may miss the seduction and excitement of when love is new. I am throwing that out there as a starting point for renewing your communication. If you work at making her fall in love with you all over again... well I don't know what woman doesn't love that.

Remember , loving her isn't necessarily "letting her take lovers" Make sure you remain her number one lover...never get lazy about that guys ( general request from me personally). I think it is what leads most women to go astray and end up becoming and adulteress.

Ms. Body

This is the one that gives me the greatest advice and I feel hits the nail on the head-in whats happended and where I need to go-
Naughtycool

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by Naughtycool

So- these two quotes above really sum it up here-another phone call in the midst of dinner reiterated the same reply of "stuff in the freezer and "don't know when I'll be home"- at the time I had just returned home- and was the time I said I would probably be home- and so it wasn't 4 hours home waiting- it was only 3(!) -and ANOTHER phone call from her (2nd one also from the bathroom!) relayed that "I'm getting drunk" and again, "don't know when I'll be home"- so from that point only 2 hours (and 15 min!)passed from that last call
until he dropped her off-
AS for previous behavior of this sort- no--and yes- the original ground rules set- were continually stretched and shattered a long while ago- it's the only
questionable behavior since the previous episode with that single guy and that has been over for a year-
And most curiously here- my question from my original post as to whether she is serious or just blowing it out of her ass has not been answered- I have handled all lifestyle faux pas by my wife so that she changes what her behavior is rather than me imposing my will- basic consideration- yes -that and more honesty from here about her desires would be good- I just have to show her somehow that it is in her best interest for US that she open up more to me- thanks to you all for your input up to this point - some are damn enlightening-
Naughtycool

The girl is blowing smoke up your ass. Definitely. Getting drunk? Stuff in the freezer? Don't know (= don't care) when I'm getting home?? I dunno. None of us are in your shoes, so we're only going on what we see in your post. AND we haven't heard her side of things. But if all we have to guess by is what you've told us, I'd say she's got some unresolved anger issues that she's passively-aggressively trying to take out on you. She's not communicating very well with you. Oh she's saying something allright, but she's not exactly taking the most direct or honourable route to do it. If you're reading this Mrs. NC, I'm sorry for sounding harsh, but I'm just calling it like I see it. My personal opinion is, if you have an issue with someone that's big enough that it's detracting from your relationship with that person, you have to decide what it is you're expecting of them, and tell them. And you pull no punches in doing so, nor do you use manipulation of any sort. You just tell it like it is. Painful at times, yes, but I've found it's probably a lot more like pulling a bandaid off really fast. Easiest to just have done with it. You'll have to deal with it eventually anyhow. And this from probably the biggest hater of confrontation you're likely to meet! :rollseyes

Just a side note: The fact that she called home to tell you she was getting drunk speaks volumes. Excessive alcohol + swinging = disaster waiting to happen. Too much alcohol (or any other mind-altering substance) screws up your judgment, which you need FULL control of if you're serious about swinging. She wasn't sensitive to the fact that you would now be concerned for her safety and welfare after disclosing this to you. Was she aware of the vulnerable position she put herself in? Or the anxiety I'm sure it caused you? Of course, it really depends on how comfortable you feel with this other guy. If you trust the guy with your wife's life, then I guess it's a non-issue. But to loosely quote CuriousAgain (one of our well-respected single board members), would you trust the guy enough to go hunting with him? How comfortable are you walking in front of him knowing he's carrying a loaded gun?

If I'm way off base, I apologize.

[curiousagain]

Naughtycool, I'm sure you have enough conflicting thoughts and ideas on your own without more thrown in the mix by we who don't really know your situation as completely as you.

But, if you plan on wooing your wife back in some semblance of the manner in which you originally did, I have to wonder, will this be reciprocated? You may bring her flowers and take her to her favorite places and rub her feet at night; will she cook your favorite desserts, dress for you, and give you blowjobs in the stairwell at work?

A ship can't sail with all of the ballast on one side and a relationship can't go with all of the giving on one side. If both of you are committed to making the relationship work then by golly give it your all. If she's going to make you crawl around and search for ways to please her while she is doing as she pleases without any consideration for you then grab your hat and your coat and your wallet now.

You do have worth and your needs, feelings, and emotions are as important as hers. Being a couple takes two people, two hearts, and two minds.

Good luck in whatever path you choose.

[intuition897]

An apology is in order! I misquoted. It wasn't CuriousAgain who made the hunting comment, it was JnCC! Very sorry about that JnCC. Credit where credit is due.

[BodyScape02]

Originally Posted by Naughtycool

This is the one that gives me the greatest advice and I feel hits the nail on the head-in whats happended and where I need to go-
Naughtycool

I am peclimped....( coffee talk people will get that)

I wish you the best... I don't often give "pc" or "feel good" advice but I do strive to be objective and honest....My failing is that I am a very plain speaking individual to the point of being blunt... that is often not a very valued trait.

My girlfreinds know better than to ask me " does this make me look fat?" ...unless they really want an honest answer.

Ms. B

[montresor]

Just a little off point... Bodyscape02, please explain "peclimped!" I drink coffee like nobody's business, but I don't know that one.

[txduo2000]

Originally Posted by BodyScape02

I am peclimped....( coffee talk people will get that)

I wish you the best... I don't often give "pc" or "feel good" advice but I do strive to be objective and honest....My failing is that I am a very plain speaking individual to the point of being blunt... that is often not a very valued trait.

My girlfreinds know better than to ask me " does this make me look fat?" ...unless they really want an honest answer.

Ms. B

Not sure, but I think it was "vaclempt" (sp?). lol

Do we have any 60-ish jewish women on the boards? Or was it a NY thing?