Frustrated & Feeling Left Out

[Sweet_Candy]

Neither one of you need to be swinging at this point. You both sound self-centered. You're a couple first and foremost and it sounds as if you're acting like singles in your approach to the lifestyle. Sex is sex and it doesn't matter if it's same sex or opposite sex. Step back from any and all sex and individuals who are causing discord in your relationship. Work on your relationship before what you have is lost. From both your post there's plenty of blame to go around but we're not here to judge either of you. We read a disaster in the making. Use this time to avert this calamity and strengthen your marriage.

[EmpyreanPleasur]

I think it's not possible and it is wrong to try to determine who is in the right or wrong here. All I can do is offer some advise.

I still think you two need to clarify some limits. I would be furious with Mr. if he pursued a single woman who had no idea that we were swingers - not to mention that we don't swing apart anyway. Likewise we have agreed that unless and until we have a long time, ongoing, trusting relationship with an unattached single female, neither of us would be alone with her until we had previously agreed we'd reached that point in the relationship.

My point is that you may have to be a bit more specific in your limits. Yes, it is ok that he wan'ts "stranger" sex - however, does that preclude her from getting what she wants and what they have apparently previously agreed is ok? Would her relationship with her friend not be a problem as long as he "is getting his" somewhere else?

Swinging should NEVER be a competition between the two of you. One of the couple is ALWAYS going to be a bit more popular than the other one - and there may be times where this rotates between the two of you. Either that, or you set a rule that neither of you ever plays unless BOTH of you are involved.

The other thing to remember here is that sometimes we set limits that we think are perfect and once we test them out, we find there were unexpected feelings that we didn't care for - so sometimes you have to step back and reset your limits. There is nothing that says you cannot CHANGE your rules or step back and do less than you had previously agreed upon!

[Tempest419]

Put two hetero men into the same room naked and tell them that "sex is sex" and gender does not matter, LOL To each their own, and my boundaries with single ladies not the in lifestyle, who are looking for husbands, is my right to claim as a wife, just as it is his to tell me that he doesn't want me to have relations with my best friend.

Tempest

[Tempest419]

Empyrean--both hubby and I have enjoyed reading your advice on many of the threads. Any advice you give is taken humbly!

I am relieved to hear you say that you would also not like your SO to pursue a single female alone... I guess hubby's been in the camp that "sex is sex" (as many people here also believe) and that all complications, rules and stipulations go right out the door. I have never been a black and white kind of person, life is in many shades and each situation will be taken individually. Like I mentioned... put two hetero men in the same room and say that "sex is sex" and I can imagine you will get some very loud ifs, ands or butts. I guess if I did not love him then I would just not care what he does...

I have not taken other women off the board for him, that is ridiculous... I spent the whole second night at the club for him and even suggested that he register at adultfriendfinder.com and try to find some possibilites to pursue there til we have our son at Grandma's for a few days and can get back to the club (he declined looking through personals.) I have already spoken frankly with my best friend about a threesome, and she is even hinting that she might like to have him involved now... and even said well we'll just all need to talk before anything, which she is fine with (she is fairly liberal, sexually) my point being, if he had just wanted to stipulate this now, he will be MUCH less likely to get some strange than if he just quit tallying the score card and go with the flow of what's a direct possibility SOON!

We also agreed with you in that we would much rather swing with singles. People may find that strange, but I find it strange to just swap spouses in the same room, or different rooms or whatever. We want to do this *together* and this is what I'm attempting this with the best friend.... because we've also determined that we would not like complete stranger sex all the time--look at all the disappointments, the hassle, the time it takes--and sex is just better when you know a little something about them, anyway. Hubby also pointed out that our current "lovers," the guy from the club whom we both like (he was into the pagan god thing, so I'm referring to him as the Roman), and my bf, because they are single, do not have the complications of schedules and babysitters as much. Makes things less complicated! Plus neither of us are opposed to a long-term poly-amorous type relationship with my best friend... I'm sure she will be dating someone again soon and hey, who knows where that could go? And as you mentioned in another thread, taking the time to build a longer term relationship is long and tedious, but completely worth it!

The Mr. should be posting later to defend himself (I never said he lied or was sneaky, in fact I said we had been talking a LOT--and just not agreeing) but in the meantime, I'd like to add that we are already making plans for trying my first DP (yippee!) with the Roman towards Halloween, and if my bf makes it over to visit this afternoon (she might) I'm going to ask what she thinks about letting poor, lonely Serious at least fuck me while I eat her out???

Thanks to you Empyrean, would love to chat with you sometime! And thanks to everyone else, even the offended responses were helpful.

Tempest

[Tempest419]

PS.... I should add the Mr. is verra excited about the DP (might get some practice in later tonight with my new 6-inch toy) and HE told me to invite the friend today... go figure ;-)

[EmpyreanPleasur]

Tempest...and Seriously...thank you. I am glad that sometimes my ramblings help!

I just want to clarify that though I would not want my husband involved with a single woman alone, I probably wouldn't like it if we were swapping and he developed a relationship outside our foursome with that woman either.

The point is, that EVERYONE has different limits. Some may seem unusual to others, but we have to work out what is right for us - like the couple that will full swap but you may not kiss on the mouth! To each their own.

The important thing is that sometimes what we think will work doesn't go too well on the test run and to realize it is ok to say, "hey, I didn't expect this feeling/complication and maybe we need to change that"...OR find a way to talk about this unexpected complication and what would help to work around it for both of you. I hope that makes sense.

As long as the two of you continue to communicate and try to understand each other, you should be able to work things out without too much difficulty.

[Tempest419]

Well we have been together for a total of 12 years... and there is (thankfully) still a spark between us--sometimes it gets us arguing, but we seem to always work it out. In fact.... we both feel like opening these doors (despite squabbles over definition) has made us even more attracted to each other. We are fucking like bunnies and having a great time overall. I am seeing new sides to him and feeling verra, verra attracted... the Mr. has been working out regularly for months now and lost some weight (as we both have) and he is just really friggin' hot! I've always noticed girls giving him the eye (and he's so funny and smart easy going) that I just want him most of the time. I think he's gotten more blow jobs now than ever. In fact, after the girlfriend lef the other night (I got her off and she went home) that we had some really amazing sex afterwards that we're both still thinking about... mmm

We think it's been good and are 90% (confirm that honey?) having a good time, so we are excited with what's going on now.

Toodles~
Tempest

Be this too late from someone without credentials, but please take it for what it's worth...

1. What you have is a polyamorous situation, and swinging is not the real issue. You and your wife are each others primary partner. The gf is your wife's secondary. Note that they have a relationship which is not just sex. They have a history of years and have lived under the same roof. They have a relationship in every sense of the word.

2. Your dynamics of the situation demand that you have something which balances out your wife's secondary. You are looking for a sex partner(s) through swinging to try and offset your wife's relationship.

You aren't finding such, perhaps because your wife isn't as assisting as you need/desire, but even if you found no strings sex, it would not have the strength and weight needed to compensate you for your wife's secondary.

3. It appears your wife doesn't openly recognize the fact that she has a full blown relationship while you have little if anything. She's using the 'FF sex is different' argument as smoke to cover the fact she is in a relationship far beyond an ongoing sexual encounter.

She says that sex between two females isn't like a real relationship and that she wouldn't replace your relationship with a primary relationship with another female (i.e. replace her hetero relationship with a homo one) because her secondary is FF, and FF is not the same as MF.

This is flawed two ways.

First, the gender of her secondary has nothing to do with the fact she was a true relationship going with her gf. The issue here is her secondary poly relationship, not the sex of her secondary.

She could have the same ongoing intimacy with another male; you would have the same issues of her secondary relationship competing with the primary relationship. She just couldn't hide behind the 'FF sex is different' statement and you both would be directly addressing the unspoken issue of her primary relationship remaining her primary.

Second, she seeks to forbid you a secondary relationship by claiming her secondary isn't a real relationship, and therefore you are equal because neither of you will have a relationship. She say that you can have a bf just as she has a gf, knowing that it won't happen since you aren't bi. The flaw is her trying to squelch things by exploiting gender preferences.

5. You realize this is unfair, particularly since you have something that could be developed into your own secondary relationship. You feel used, and in a sense, you are absolutely right. This is what needs to be dealt with and until you do, neither of you should have a secondary relationship. In fact, you two shouldn't even try swinging (i.e. pure recreational only sex).

6. The arguments your wife gives about a secondary relationship with your gf changing into a primary relationship (thus demoting your wife into a secondary position) all have analogs with her and her gf, even if you won't make them to her.

If it was only sex for the fun of sex, no arguments of this type would be valid because each argument requires a true relationship as a premise. You are just as worried about your wife changing your relationship from primary to secondary in favor of her gf as your wife is worried about you changing your secondary into a primary (should she let you have one).

You want the added intimacy of a second person, just as your wife has added intimacy from/with her gf.

Everything is a two way street. Neither of you can have your cake and eat it too. But you see the cake on her plate, and you also see your empty plate.

7. While there may be communication between you and your wife, there is not understanding. Given this, she should totally break with her gf until you both understand each other and agree about the conduct of all relationships you might have.

8. You may be able to bring things to a better balance by forming a triad, where the relationship your wife has with her gf is as strong as the relationship you have with her gf. Difficult, though perhaps doable, but things will almost certainly not reach true equity. However, the imbalance may be small enough that you can deal with it better than you can in you current state of not having a secondary relationship of your own.

9. Again, swinging is not the issue here. Swing is something you are trying to use as a tool to find something that you feel is missing. It won't work, because what you are missing is relational, not purely sexual. It's not too surprising that swinging can't fill the void.

[wiscpl]

Very well put rdy46227.

[Tempest419]

Surrender I think that, what we have been doing up to this point is termed a Vee... and as I mentioned definitely polyamorous with the girlfriend. I don't believe I put any smoke over that... I've always been up front that I love her.
But with the man that we met--and with whom we do not associate otherwise, and both hope to see again the future--wouldn't that be called swinging?

You are right about the swinging not being enough; we are finding as we go along that we are probably better off with something stable than one night stands. I also think that, because I am sensitive and he is more easy going, I end up putting up more boundaries than he does. It's like that in MUCH of our life together. Would that work for you and your partner... apparently not. I have always been more jealous of him (though I've chilled out more the older I get) and he has always said that he *likes* that about me. :rollseyes Knowing this, I think it would be stupid to disregard who we are going into this in favor of a list of rules that others believe should apply because The Online Swinger Rulebook says so... neither of us are a big fan of succumbing to the system anyway.

I found this funny recently... if anyone here knows anything about astrology... our combined sun sign is Aquarius (the sign of unconventionality and rebellion) conjunct Uranus (also ruled by Aquarius, the planet of unconventionality, rebellion, surprise). Our "love" is also unconventional... Venus is also in powerful relation to Uranus... basically what it all means is that we are Different, Different, Different! We are advised astrologically to keep ourselves open to encounters with others and strike our own path.

Also... maybe it would help to know that my GF went through a rape trauma earlier in the year. Already being bisexual, she feels more comfortable entering into sex with another "person" with a woman right now, one that she trusts. She is finding herself missing having a man, a boyfriend but at the same time she is working and attending grad school, and doesn't have a lot of time. She knows my husband and trusts him a great deal, and quite frankly I would like to "share" my wonderful husband with her to help her heal and welcome men back into her life. I have inferred that this type of relationship works out well for her at this time that she is so incredibly busy and unable to devote a lot of time to another relationship.

She lived with both of us for 6 months and they do consider each other friends. I have no doubt that he has a friendship love for her and that doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I have LONG had fantasies of a threesome together and told him many times how much I'd like for BOTH of us to pleasure her. We can "share" what we both love about her. He is very turned on by this I think, or else he would mind more.

I should also add that if this were trying to pull this off--a love relationship--with a man, he would absolutely forbid it.

Since we started this thread... that he and the GF had a very frank talk. I said nothing and just listened in as they talked. He told her his concerns, boundaries, etc. and she responded very lovingly and respectfully and I have to say, it worked out very well. She was very touched by his worries and found him to be "cute" and "sweet." They have also talked some more without me.

And... we also talked about all of us being together, and that is now a plan for the (hopefully) near future. We are taking things s-l-o-w-l-y and have already discussed that the first time, we will all participate but him just with me. Then, the GF and I have talked about giving Seriously all the attention one night soon... so things are a-brewin' I think we all agree that we just want to take it slowly. This was not about me forming something he could never be involved with, she and I just wanted to take the time to get sexually reacquainted, esp considering her rape earlier this year. We both care for her and want to be with her, so I think we are both willing to be patient and sensitive to everyone's needs.

Well hopefully Husband will be on here soon to help defend my ass... LOL

Tempest





And as many people have advised, everyone's (as couples and as individuals) boundaries are different

[Tempest419]

(this post composed a couple of days ago)
Whew, it's been a couple of days since I've had time to get to the boards, with work, a two year old and the non-stop awesome sex. You got to have your priorities! .

First, Tempest, you so sweet. I think you might get lucky tonight. Lol! I can definitely confirm that so far having a more open marriage has been good in a lot of ways. We do seem able to talk about things more candidly and openly than ever before and not just sex. In general, the last few months have been quite a learning experience. Pushing all these social boundaries around can make the transition to an open relationship quite confusing/thrilling/emotional for us noobs as we are dealing with some strong emotions, e.g. jealousy of several varieties.

Second, I guess I wasn't as clear as maybe I should have about several issues. Unfortunately I'm just not as prolific as Tempest and tend to get lazy. Several of you misunderstood my intentions with the somewhat independent prospect. Let me say at this point, though, that since Tempest is not comfortable with the situation I have dropped it. However, for the sake of clarification, my hope was to bring her in for us both to form a friendship and hopefully to play with. I can see from the text that I said "me" and "mine" more than I should have. Why would I think this is a remote possibility? Well, first she is close friends with the spouse of one of my best friends. One of the only people I've told anything about this lifestyle. So it is possible she knows about our new attitude towards sharing. She and Tempest have met several times and have an amazing amount in common in terms of politics, religion, recreational drugs, etc.. Also, she has given me some indication that she finds me attractive, just subtle looks, that I have told Tempest about, yet has gone out of her way to spend time with Tempest socially, without guile as far as I can tell. So maybe I'm wrong but there might have been a possibility there.

Bodyscape02, the reason I had to post from another computer was due to a problem I was having starting new threads with Firefox. I discovered (I think) that it was a combination of Firefox and OS - I was trying to post from a computer running XP tablet edition. Feel free to check my previous posts.

As for my conclusions concerning my impatience; Actually I realized as I composed the beginning of this thread that I should essentially chill and go with the flow. I have become much more comfortable with the situation with her best friend by having a very candid conversation with Tempest and her friend about my reservations concerning intimate alone time. Now I'm feeling better, less threatened and not excluded from their relationship (for a bunch of reasons which I don't have time to write about here). I also see that building a new "fun" relationship with Tempest's best friend will take time and I'm cool with it. After all, the way we've been going at it, I'm beginning to get rubbed raw despite gallons of lube. Not a joke. So for the time being I've got nearly more strange love at home than I can take, though I do see a trip to the club in the near future.

-seriously

[Tempest419]

rdy46227-
One of the reasons I felt jealous of my wife's relationship with her gf is that we (all three) had not had "the talk" and felt threatened by a potential transition to an exclusive love relationship. Since my first post we've strainghtened things out a bit more and as I said above, now understand (and feel understood) about the situation. I think that we are both coming to the conclusion that the type of relationships we would like to form would have a more poly feel to them. Despite my comment on getting some "stange" love, which is still haunting me, there is a lot to be said for being with people you know, trust and can talk to easilly. So I am willing to let things move ahead slowly because, ultimately, it could be very nice for all parties involved.

-seriously

[hotblonde47]

I guess I'm going against the flow here but ... it appears to me that Mrs Seriously is having her cake and eating it too! My husband is extremely outgoing and I am quite shy initially but he wouldn't dream of us separating at an event and hooking up and leaving me to my own devices. WE ARE A COUPLE. We don't always play as a couple but we always respect each others feelings and wishes first! Mr Seriously, it seems to me, is attracted to someone he would like to play with. Mrs Seriously is saying "no way" while she's playing her own game. I think this couple need to back off swinging entirely until they have sorted out respect for each other.

[curiousagain]

IMHO, for what it's worth, I think the situation was pegged several times in the previous post. The wife and GF have a relationship and that can be as threatening to a marriage's stability as if she had a boyfriend. Tempest, it would seem you are saying your GF is not a threat to your marriage because she is a female. I have seen women leave their husband's for their female lover and I seriously doubt those two instances were the only times that has happened in the world. If Seriously was bisexual a male lover could be as threatening to your marriage as a female lover.

It appears y'all are working towards a solution, but what causes me to doubt the efficacy of the solution is that Tempest only seems accepting of a solution if it contains the continuity of her relationship with her best friend/girl friend. That would seem to indicate that relationship is higher in importance to her than the marriage.

Good luck to y'all, I hope it works out for you.

[seriously]

Oops, posted from the wife's computer and forgot to log her out.

-seriously