a selfish husband contemplating divorce

[l_amante1]

This is my last post. Some people just don't understand how to be nice and supportive. They just have to show how wonderful they are and what a douche someone else is. I'll apologize now, I'm going to be harsh here.

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

I'll answer you briefly:
Your choices are very limiting - (a) embrace swinging or (b) do it as a trial.

What? Limiting? What the hell else is there? Try it or don't try it. Like or don't like it. She said she'd try. But simply going through the motions isn't really trying now is it? But for sake of argument (something you appear to love) we'll say she did try. She didn't like it. Now we don't go out. So just what the hell are you talking about? I will not repeat a third time what it was that got me upset as you simply appear to be incapable of understanding plain English.

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

The reason I'm very sure that we will both respect and honor our own relationship above swinging or not, is because this was the deal we made before we started. As we discussed everything, we agreed that regardless of the reason, if either of us was uncomfortable with any particular situation, environment, partners, or even with swinging as a whole, we would both exit the situation

Gee I wish I'd have thought of that. Wow you must be some kind of emotional genius or something! Such a thing would have never occurred to me. You guys actually talked about this before trying it? How incredibly stupid I must be. All I had to do was talk about it and we could have saved ourselves the trouble of actually meeting people and going out. What an insensitive jackass I must be. Oh, wait a minute, we did talk! But I guess I should have known my wife was going to lie to me time after time after time about wanting to really try swinging. Thank GOD I have you to set me straight!!!

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

There are many other couples in swinging who feel about this just as we do: our relationship #1 always, swinging very secondary.

Oh I see. You guys are perfect. Yet this is what I hear you saying, "We're in the club and you're not, nah nah na nah nah." Your worse than some kind of Holier Than Thou, Born Again Evangelical. How many years are you together? When you pass 24 come see me about how wonderful every little thing is. In the meantime don't preach to me, your not qualified.

[ShellyM]

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

Your wife did much more than most would in her shoes. She tried. She did that for your sake, you know - she is not interested in swinging for herself. Rather than valuing the fact that she stepped far out of her comfort zone to get the slut clothes and try going to the swinger parties, you were ready to "call it quits" with your wife just because she was uncomfortable at her first sex party.

I swing (I'm the one who suggested it), but if my husband was as wound up about swinging as you are, and if my husband put swinging above me, I would not swing.

You feel caged in, and you want to be free to be yourself. However, do you let your wife be herself? You kept referring to the different culture that she comes from, the different values. She is who she is. You don't respect her - you want her to turn into somebody else and reinvent herself, "or else". Nobody has the right to pressure someone else into being who they are not.

I absolutely agree. And we aren't 24 yet, are we? I'm holding at 22.
Don't worry T, I think your a genius.

[Alura]

We've been together 27 years, married 25, and we think L_amante1 is wrong.

Our marriage is more important to us than swinging will ever be. The idea of getting a divorce because one can't swing is ludicrous. The sad part is that, once divorced, swinging is even less likely. So is regular sex, unless one is willing to lower his expectations or has a lot of money.

Mr. Alura

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by l_amante1

What does my heart say? Two things. First that she will not screw me in court because she is sincere about letting me have a playmate, and second, that my life is still better than that of 2/3 the population of the planet who struggle in squalor just to survive so I should stop being such a spoiled shit. But I'm dying a little bit everyday that I am not being myself. How wonderful it would be to step in front of a speeding bus right now.

Listen to your heart and your wife. We are not our fathers or our mothers. And we can't always have exactly what we want but when we love each other most of the time we are willing to let the other have what they need or even feel they need.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by l_amante1

Many messages can be pulled apart and dissected for meaning. I am sure in one as long as the one I wrote there are many such places for this. However, sometimes you have to look at the whole to get the full context and meaning of what is being said. Tybee, you may want to read my original in it's entirety and re-evaluate what you see in it.

In response to your comments, I did not try to make my wife turn into someone she isn't, I asked her to look at expanding her horizons and experience with something she had not given any real thought to. Remember I said we talked about this for months prior to doing anything. Also remember I said I tried to expose her to many other things before we looked at this. None of which involved sex.

I think that perhaps you misread Tybee. I don't think she said or implied that you tried or made your wife try to be someone she was not for you. What she said is that your wife did try to make herself be someone she was not for you. Often this is what people do for people that they love they TRY new things or TRY to be people or things that they are not in order to make someone else happy. Sometimes it works and they discover that they were not who they thought themselves to be, discovering new ways to live and new things to enjoy. Sometimes (as in your wife's case) it does not work and they only discover that they were trying to be something they could not be.

What Tybee said is very true. You do have very limited choices. You can either stick out and not be happy yourself because you are TRYING to be someone you are not for her. Or you can leave and go be who you are for yourself.

As someone else said, putting someone else's needs ahead of your own completely only works for a short time. In the end if you are not happy who you are or who you are trying to be then that destroys everything.

[ShellyM]

Originally Posted by Alura

Our marriage is more important to us than swinging will ever be. The idea of getting a divorce because one can't swing is ludicrous.

Absolutely agreed. Jay and I both agree that if either of us ever decides for certain that that is it for swinging that is IT. Our union and family is what its about! Swinging is only an ASPECT within a marriage, not a marriage. Yeah, to walk from a marriage and family only because she or he won't swing is simply a very unwise decision. Weigh the costs before you do this.

[Alura]

What are some of the reasons for the "seven (twenty-five?) year itch?"

Both men and women try their best to be the person they think the other wants during courtship only to become their true selves again after being enveloped by the security-blanket of marriage.

The Great Spirit has designed us to ensure that the young, who have the energy, bear the children who keep us a viable species on Mother Earth. As women age, their bodies produce less and less testosterone. The result is that she has less need for sex. There are exceptions, of course, with some gals staying horney after they're grandmas. Men, on the other hand, tend to stay horney. Hell, they don't have to carry the young!

This situation can cause serious problems in the later years of marriage. Hormone therapy can help but it's not readily available and few women seek it. It's crazy that Big Pharma has developed several pills to give a man a four-hour erection but no such effort has been made to help women be eager to receive it. Have you ever heard a commercial ask, "Ask your doctor if testosterone treatment is right for you!"?

Many of our motivations stem directly from our sex drives, or lack of them. When the divergences are so great, it's hard to deal with the resulting problems.

Exercise can be very helpful. To quote Bill Maher, "Ask your doctor if getting off your ass is right for you!"

Mr. Alura

[texmo]

Sorry to resurrect this thread after it was already dead, but I just wanted to reply to l_amante1 and Tybee.

Tybee, I don't think anyone would disagree with your views about the proper place of swinging in a marriage relationship, and that is that it should be secondary to the relationship. That isn't controversial. I think it was tremendously judgmental to suggest that l_amante1 thought otherwise.

I agree with you, Tybee, and l_amante1 does too. He didn't choose swinging over his wife, and neither did I. What's really happened/happening here is that there were/are other incompatibilities in the relationship, and swinging served to highlight them. My wife and I both agree.. swinging didn't cause our problems. It only served to make us more aware of the problems that were already there. I hope you understand why l_amante1 got so defensive in his post. You clearly don't get it. And to go off lecturing about how couples need to *talk* about it swinging beforehand and be in agreement about how it should be secondary in the relationship is condescending, given how self-evident that fact is.

My wife and I aren't swinging anymore. And since I started this thread, we have settled on getting a divorce. It could be as soon as this summer, but we might wait longer for practical reasons that I won't address here. It is definitely the right thing to do, but I am still extremely saddened by it. I love her. I really love her. But we both know that we're incompatible, and it's time for us to move on.

[awu25]

In my opinion in a relationship there is never right or wrong. There is action, and there is consequence(good or bad). Morality often does not make much sense.

The OP sounds very mature and calm. He seems to know what will be waiting for him on the other side if he dose divorce his wife. I for one support his decision, whatever it will be, because I believe he had thought it through and ready to accept the consequences of his decision.

Yes, the OP is selfish, and so is every single one of us. Everything we do, if we dig deep enough it's always for our own desires and our own desires only.

[DBL D]

I have had a lot of the feelings that l'amante1 has stated, as well as texmo, with the difference being that I DO love my wife. There are also thoughts from others here that I would have to agree with as well.

It all gets wound up into the same type of thing. The relationship between your wife and you should be tops, and if you do love each other there should be a way to live without tearing each other apart when things go differently than you expect.

You either have to be patient with her or let her go. You may get the sex you are looking for but you will end up really missing the things that came with being together both large and small. I feel for you guys but you are going to have to keep your wits about you or your life will really get ugly.

When I got to thinking about bringing up the idea of doing the sex with other people together with her, it was only natural for me to feel that she would see things like I did. Well, guess what? She didn't. Then where does that leave you. Compromise? That usually sucks. Give up your feelings? That sucks too. There seems to be no solution, for once that box is opened, you can't quite wrap it back up that way it was. You HAVE to move at the slowest persons pace. Hopefully that person will still understand that you have some different needs than hers and let you be satisfied...but when she EVER feels that she isn't number one, don't be surprised when the plug is pulled.

If the shoe were on the other foot, I'm sure you would feel the same.

Male D

[safireblues]

I can't imagine that someone would go from 0-swingers parties and be comfortable. I'm in an open relationship and I can't say that I would be ok at a swinger's party. Never been to one, I prefer very small pre-selected groups.

Could it be that you men are trying to go so fast into all this more because you want to bang other woman than as a fun activity as a couple? And the wives sense that it's more about expanding your sexual horizons than fun as a couple??

Here's what my husband and I did...we went to a legal brothel and got a courtesean. There was no sex, just a naughty shower, touching, and she and I did a blow job with a condom on him. It was exciting!

What about trying something like that, or a strip club, or a way to make it seem like a fun activity for your wife, rather than the "fuck other people" angle. You want it to spice up what you already have, not be a substitute for unmet needs.

[DBL D]

Originally Posted by safireblues

...There was no sex, just a naughty shower, touching, and she and I did a blow job with a condom on him. It was exciting!...

Clinton Lives!!!

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by texmo

You clearly don't get it. And to go off lecturing about how couples need to *talk* about it swinging beforehand and be in agreement about how it should be secondary in the relationship is condescending, given how self-evident that fact is.

I shouldn't even respond, because it's likely that you'll choose not to understand what I'm saying. I wasn't lecturing. The paragraph about the way my husband and I communicated and came to our decision to try swinging was just sharing our personal experiences and how it worked out for us. It wasn't a lecture. This board is to share thoughts and ideas.

You say it's condescending to advise that couples really talk beforehand, and should place swinging secondary. This advice has been given thousands of times on this board, and not only by me. Why? Because so many people come here with big problems, and in what they write it appears that they didn't really talk things through and get really honest with each other, and/or that one party was pushing an agenda on the other one.

l_amante said that he gave his wife two choices: Swing and embrace it, or swing anyway (as a trial). He was pissed because she said she'd try, and after she got to a swinger's party she became uncomfortable and backed out. From a woman's perspective (at least mine), she did try. She got the slutty outfit, got up the courage,and went with him to a swinger's party. While there, she realized that she didn't want to do it. To not leave would have been the worst thing she could do. To fuck people she didn't want to fuck just to make her husband happy would be the biggest sell-out of herself. She'd hate him later for it, if she'd done it. If she's not there for herself because she really wants to be, she doesn't need to be there. It's too bad that l_amante couldn't give her choice #3: "if either of us are uncomfortable at any point, we can back out and that's okay". That wasn't on his agenda.

[lovinher]

Sometimes things just don't work out. Your marriage is one of them. I agree with you that your problems have nothing to do with swinging but it became a catalyst in the road to divorce. If you and your wife are that incompatible then everybody is better off in the long run if you go your separate ways. It's obvious to me you should never had married in the first place but you already know that. If you and your wife are this unhappy, considering the info you gave us, I think everyone is better off in the long run if you divorce. This is not something I say lightly because in the short term it will hurt you, your wife and your kids. You know that too. You are a smart guy who already knows what has to be done. You came here for validation, not advice and there is nothing wrong with that. Who would actually leave his wife based on advice given on a swinger's board from people you don't know? I do think you should get counseling before you make this huge jump in life. If anything you both might understand better where the other is coming from. It may help your split to be a bit more amicable. That would be good for your kids. IMO, it is their needs that are the most important at this point.


That said....
It has been mentioned a few times that a person's needs and wants should not be compromised. A person should not sacrifice their own needs, desires, whatever label you want to give it. That implication is that it will lead to a miserable life. Bullshit. Life is full of sacrifices and compromises. How many of us actually live the life we thought or hoped we would. Life gets in the way of goals and ambitions. It's the people that dwell on their own sacrifices and missed goals that are unhappy. I didn't achieve my original goals in life and I'm glad I didn't because I would not have the family and life I have now. To say your own wants must be paramount to everyone else in your life is extremely selfish. With that kind of attitude you are destined to a life of disappointments. If something happened to my wife and she could not have sex (or go bowling), I would sacrifice my need for it because I love her and she IS my life. That is what love is all about, sacrifices and compromises. It really is that simple.
I'd love to be male porn star who sails the world. But it isn't going to happen because I have more important things in my life...and I'm not miserable because of it.

[DBL D]

That said....
It has been mentioned a few times that a person's needs and wants should not be compromised. A person should not sacrifice their own needs, desires, whatever label you want to give it. That implication is that it will lead to a miserable life. Bullshit. Life is full of sacrifices and compromises. How many of us actually live the life we thought or hoped we would. Life gets in the way of goals and ambitions. It's the people that dwell on their own sacrifices and missed goals that are unhappy. I didn't achieve my original goals in life and I'm glad I didn't because I would not have the family and life I have now. To say your own wants must be paramount to everyone else in your life is extremely selfish. With that kind of attitude you are destined to a life of disappointments. If something happened to my wife and she could not have sex (or go bowling), I would sacrifice my need for it because I love her and she IS my life. That is what love is all about, sacrifices and compromises. It really is that simple.
I'd love to be male porn star who sails the world. But it isn't going to happen because I have more important things in my life...and I'm not miserable because of it.[/QUOTE]

Very well said...

I agree that if you have other issues that have made you unhappy in your marraige and you both agree, maybe it would be best to split. Good communication will help things fall in palce without anger. The key word here is GOOD communication. I have found that communication is what works best, but you have to be kind and speak with love in your heart. You may not like your spouse at times but you still love them and want them to understand you. When people are approched by someone with anger it can cloud what you are trying to say and the other may not understand.

I'm sure that most all of us at one time or another have had some negative things happen in the lifestyle that could push us away from our spouses.
Take some time to understand what's really happening before you make your next move. I think the above quote says it all.

Good luck to all of us.
Fem d