a selfish husband contemplating divorce

[sweet_tna]

My advice, in a word? Counseling.

In several words? You both (as individuals) have some serious stuff to work through before you can figure out what's best for you as a couple. In the meantime, you have those kids to consider. Best of luck to you both.

~Mrs. Sweet

[msa223]

Texmo,

I will add my two cents for what it is worth. 1) I think if you didn't have kids, this situation would be much simpler. If you truly know in your heart that you married the wrong person, it wouldn't be that much of an issue to separate. 2) Kids are a big complicating factor. I personally think it is just that much worse for your kids to grow up with divorced parents than with two parents at home. Obviously, if the parents at home are truly miserable, that isn't great for the kids either.

Enough of the general stuff. I know the general consensus around here is that if your spouse isn't interested, than there is no more discussion. I personally disagree with that. It is very important to you to live a more adventurous life including swinging. I think it is reasonable for your wife to compromise somewhat to your desires. Marriage should be a two way street and I assume she has a vested interest in trying to make your marriage work as well. As you already stated, you don't want her to "take one for the team" but maybe there are some other things you both can agree to do that might make you happier that she would be comfortable doing. I'm not just talking about swinging and sex. Travel is always fun. What other "life passing you by" activities are you interested in doing? As to the swinging, perhaps you can go to a club and enjoy the atmosphere and relationships without your wife feeling that she is "taking one for the team." How about a vacation to Hedo or Desires?

I personally don't think that you can be expected to totally bury your desires for the sake of your marriage and kids. That is just a formula for unhappiness. On the other hand, it may work out if your wife is willing to compromise somewhat that you can satisfy your desires 80% and your wife will still be happy.

Personally, if I knew something would make my wife happy, I am always willing to give it a try. Being together is always pretty good no matter what the venue. For example, I had a girlfriend who loved the opera. Not my particular cup of tea but I went with her. In the context of a night out with my girlfriend, it wasn't so terrible.

Talk to your wife and tell her your feelings. Ask her if she would be willing to make some compromises to satisfy your "mid-life crises" needs and assure her you won't make her do anything she is totally uncomfortable doing.

As far as the "grass is always greener", I guarantee you, you won't find another person who wants exactly everything that you want. If you find someone who wants to make you happy and who you want to make happy and you are willing to get 80% of the way there, I think you will be lucky.

[cubnamy1995]

Hey guys! I saw the thread and couldn't help getting in the middle of it. For the record, this is the amy of cubnamy. Most women typically go for the jugular and pounce on "selfish". Not me.
Look, it seems to me that you didn't come here seeking advice, you came for validation or someone to guilt you into do the exact opposite of what your heart has already said. You, yourself, said you can honestly not see ever being happy with your wife. Yeah, it sucks, but that doesn't make it the wrong thing to feel. Every person changes, and sometimes, you don't change in the same way as your partner. You got married young to have sex. Did you even see yourself happy with her then? I'm not saying you didn't try or that you don't care. It's obvious you do or this would not be a hard decision for you at all. But, the fact remains you are not happy.
People can say sacrifice all they want to make it work, but I feel true sacrifice of one's own heart is simply too high a price to pay. If you have truly looked into your heart and realize this woman is not the woman you live your life for and most importantly with, then staying will not be of value to anyone, especially the kids.
In the words of that "Dr. Something" we all love to hate, kids would much rather be from a broken home that be in one. Do you or your wife want your children to grow up and think this is the way marriage is supposed to be? Or, do you want them to love and be loved more than anything else in the world? Let's be honest, they would be much better at handling life with parents who's connection was solely to raise their children well, even from different addresses that children whose parents spend 90% of their time pretending to love each other and the other 10% bitching because they don't. (90+10=100% meaning no time for kiddies at all).
The fact remains, no matter what you decide, you need to put your children first. IF you sit down with the wife, discuss everything. Go over every scenario and decide between the two of you want kind of family you want, whether it be together til death do you part or in different houses as allies in raising the best children possible. And let's be honest, this isn't really about swinging at all. Sex is never enough to cause this kind of turmoil in your soul. You are really wanting more to life in every aspect than you are getting now. Maybe your wife can help obtain that with you. Maybe she doesn't even want too. You have to talk to her and see where you both stand. You owe it to yourself, and yes, to her. For her "sacrifices" of being a mom, she at least deserves to be treated with respect and not left being the one you settled for because you felt guilty.

[ShellyM]

Originally Posted by msa223

I think it is reasonable for your wife to compromise somewhat to your desires. Marriage should be a two way street and I assume she has a vested interest in trying to make your marriage work as well. As you already stated, you don't want her to "take one for the team" but maybe there are some other things you both can agree to do that might make you happier that she would be comfortable doing.

I personally don't think that you can be expected to totally bury your desires for the sake of your marriage and kids. That is just a formula for unhappiness. On the other hand, it may work out if your wife is willing to compromise somewhat that you can satisfy your desires 80% and your wife will still be happy.

You know, this is interesting. I cannot remember if it was on here or on Swing Lifestyle, but there was a thread where we discussed this. I argued back and forth on this issue in regards to does one partner have the right to cut sex off from their partner even when they know the other partner has needs. No, I personally do NOT think they do. Now. It does sound though like this wife is not being manipulative or spiteful. I DO know some spouses that use sex as a bartering tool...buy me this and you'll get some, piss me off and you won't. That is W R O N G. I read the original post and it sounds like this poor lady is suffering from possible post partum issues, possibly her menstrual cycle and hormones are giving her hell after "re-setting" themself after having been pregnant (mine went insane after I weaned my 5 year old), or just plain she is exhausted and drained from having a baby and a young child. Trust ME, its rough. You get through the day and it can be annoying to have a horny husband rubbing against you....you think "want to help me? Wash clothes or make dinner!" So yes, I agree that one partner never has the right to meticulously cut off sex. But I think if he can find out what is going on that will do wonders. Even just going to dinner, just the 2 of them. JMO.

[texmo]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses. This thread has definitely helped me process what is going on in my life.

We have stopped swinging for now, and I suppose that's how it's going to be for some time. I understand the "grass is always greener" argument, but I see little value in it because it assumes that I am being naive about the possibilities that exist outside of my current life. I know that there is more out there than what I have. I am an unhappy man because my needs are not being met.

Am I being selfish? Perhaps, but I think selfishness can be a virtue under the appropriate circumstances. Did I get married to have sex? That was only part of it. There was a religious aspect to it. Those of you that have never been indoctrinated into an ultraconservative religious mindset can't really understand this. Although this is in the past now, it's still important for me to understand how I got to this point in my life.

I'm not sure if this thread even belongs on a swinger board, because there is so much more to my story than the swinging. But you folks have been very helpful and, once again, I appreciate the comments.

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by texmo

I know that there is more out there than what I have. I am an unhappy man because my needs are not being met.

Texmo, I'm just very curious - what are the needs that are not being met? Swinging aside, that is.

Originally Posted by texmo

Those of you that have never been indoctrinated into an ultraconservative religious mindset can't really understand this.

You would be surprised how many of us on this board understand all too well.

[Alura]

Texmo wrote:

I know that there is more out there than what I have.

There can also be less, Texmo. Here's the wisdom of Kris Kristofferson:

"Sunday Morning Coming Down"
words and music by Kris Kristofferson

Well I woke up Sunday morning,
With no way to hold my head that didn't hurt.
And the beer I had for breakfast wasn't bad,
So I had one more for dessert.
Then I fumbled through my closet for my clothes,
And found my cleanest dirty shirt.
An' I shaved my face and combed my hair,
An' stumbled down the stairs to meet the day.

I'd smoked my brain the night before,
On cigarettes and songs I'd been pickin'.
But I lit my first and watched a small kid,
Cussin' at a can that he was kicking.
Then I crossed the empty street,
'n caught the Sunday smell of someone fryin' chicken.
And it took me back to somethin',
That I'd lost somehow, somewhere along the way.

On the Sunday morning sidewalk,
Wishing, Lord, that I was stoned.
'Cos there's something in a Sunday,
Makes a body feel alone.
And there's nothin' short of dyin',
Half as lonesome as the sound,
On the sleepin' city sidewalks:
Sunday mornin' comin' down.

In the park I saw a daddy,
With a laughin' little girl who he was swingin'.
And I stopped beside a Sunday school,
And listened to the song they were singin'.
Then I headed back for home,
And somewhere far away a lonely bell was ringin'.
And it echoed through the canyons,
Like the disappearing dreams of yesterday.

On the Sunday morning sidewalk,
Wishing, Lord, that I was stoned.
'Cos there's something in a Sunday,
Makes a body feel alone.
And there's nothin' short of dyin',
Half as lonesome as the sound,
On the sleepin' city sidewalks:
Sunday mornin' comin' down.

[texmo]

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

Texmo, I'm just very curious - what are the needs that are not being met? Swinging aside, that is.

There are physical, intellectual, and emotional needs that she cannot provide for me. We were both aware of this incompatibility before I asked for her hand in marriage. In fact, we had a discussion about it the same week we got engaged. For reasons that are no longer relevant or important to either of us now, I bit the bullet and asked her to marry me anyway. It seemed like the right thing to do at the time. It was a mistake. Neither of us could have predicted this.

Our relationship was better than ever when we started swinging. It has soured recently, mostly because of me.

[l_amante1]

Originally Posted by sigh35

Swinger sex is an activity not a purpose.

Spoken like someone who is happily and securely in the lifestyle. Swinger sex is part of a lifestyle and lifestyles are how we choose to express who we are inside. Unfortunately, not everyone gets to live the lifestyle that represents who they truly are. Just look at politicians for the most visible example of this.

Let me tell you my experience and you take from it what you will.

We've been married for 24 years. I have always been attracted to other women and they to me. I've always wanted to enter the lifestyle, however I knew my wife wasn't ready as she comes from a foreign culture where women marry and stay monogamous with their husband while tolerating him playing around. The idea we could both play was unimaginable and I think she really hoped I wouldn't cheat either. I didn't, despite the opportunities and extreme temptation.

But time changes everyone somewhat and I recently tried to get my wife interested in the lifestyle. We met another couple, we went to a couple of parties, all after talking about it for a few months. She gave me the impression she was going to be open minded about it, even bought several sexy dresses to wear to the parties. Then when we got there, she clams up and starts referring to the other people there in unflattering terms. I was embarrassed and annoyed. We came very close to calling it quits.

We had some more serious conversation. Here is what I learned. My wife is less and less enthusiastic about sex in general. Near as I can recall, she never initiated sex. For her sex is something a woman does for her man and not for herself and only when "in love". To her sex is always tied to feelings of love, very private and usually quiet. Does she enjoy sex, oh yeah. But with a teenager in the house it's very sedate because she worries about being heard. When we're home alone she cums hard & audibly and until about 10 years ago, often.

The change in her ability to reach orgasm is another thing that lead me to think she might find the lifestyle enjoyable. It takes a lot of energy on my part to make her cum now. More than I can sustain every time we have sex. I thought having the opportunity to play with other men would provide her with a more stimulating experience. But the very thought of other men desiring sex with her seems to make her retch. I swear she got so upset talking about it with me one night she almost barfed then and there. I just don't understand that at all.

Over the 24 years we've been together she has always known I appreciate the sight of a beautiful woman and do so with desire. And yet seeing me openly desire another woman in a setting where I may actually have the chance to act on that desire makes her feel that I will stop loving her and hook up with this other woman. As I said, to her sex=love. I grew up in a climate where sex was simply for fun. While "making love" involves sex, sex doesn't necessary involve love. She would rather I cheat behind her back like her father, uncles, and sisters husbands then see me be open about my desires. She refuses to believe my feelings for her can remain unchanged if I play with another. Actually I'm a bit offended by this because it implies my emotions are dictated by my dick.

As for the thought of separating, the problem here is we have to many things tying us together. Family, property, limited financial resources to support separate lives, and as I mentioned, 24 years together. Also, I'm still very much "in love" with her. I can't imagine being apart form her nor do I desire to. Yet staying together means continuing to suppress who I am. My wife wants to wait a few more years till our kid graduates high school before we seriously talk about divorce. I don't want to break up our family either.

Also I don't want to look for a new relationship at that point of my life. I don't know how old you are, but I've turned that corner toward the home stretch, it's way in the distance, maybe 20+ years left, but I see the tape. I simply don't want to finish the race leaving so many things undone. I accept I will not do many of the things I've desired, but some things are still within my abilities for some time yet. I look way younger than I am and can still attract and satisfy desirable women even if certain sexual positions are no longer possible for me to achieve. In time that will end too.

She may be happy being home all the time doing nothing, I need a life, one where I don't have to hide my true nature. I've tried to involve her in many different things. The lifestyle is only the latest and I waited until I exhausted all other interests I am still capable of enjoying with her. She just doesn't want to do anything I want to do. She says "go out, do what you want." She even threw in "just don't bring any women home with you."

So here I sit, writing about a choice I am unprepared to make while seeing parties go on and others enjoying life. What to do? My gut says listen to my wife and get a girlfriend to party with, but my brain, and my fathers bitter divorce, says "don't do it, she'll only use it to screw you in court". What does my heart say? Two things. First that she will not screw me in court because she is sincere about letting me have a playmate, and second, that my life is still better than that of 2/3 the population of the planet who struggle in squalor just to survive so I should stop being such a spoiled shit. But I'm dying a little bit everyday that I am not being myself. How wonderful it would be to step in front of a speeding bus right now.

Like I said, take from this what you will. Good luck in your search for answers. But I doubt you'll find them here. They will only be found inside yourself. Meanwhile, anyone have a bus schedule?

[Vjklander]

It is hard for me to relate because we fell in love at first sight and have been together ever since, despite the best efforts of family and the United States government to break us up. Swinging, like just about everything else, is secondary to our relationship. If I had to choose between her and sex, sex would go. Obviously, we don't know a fraction of the full story, but, from my perspective, I can suggest that maybe you could do other non-sexual 'new things' that would satisfy your need for speed as it were, without her being threatened. Sky-diving is a heck of a rush. Almost as good as sex. Scuba diving, roller coasters. etc. I know my learning some BDSM techniques to use on my wife were extremely erotic and satisfying for both of us. Sex is sex, and I honestly have never had better sex than sex with my wife. Then again, she is about as adventurous as I am ...

[texmo]

Originally Posted by l_amante1

Like I said, take from this what you will. Good luck in your search for answers. But I doubt you'll find them here. They will only be found inside yourself.

l_amante1, this was probably the most helpful response for me on this thread. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective.

I am 31 years old and have two small children under the age of 5. I definitely am going through this personal crisis at an earlier age than the stereotype, but I have several friends my age who are going through similar things. I suspect that we will be getting a divorce relatively soon. Mostly because we're still young, and don't feel like we're in the "home stretch" like you do.

Nevertheless, your words were authentic and I appreciate your ability to put your wife's needs ahead of your own for so many years.

[SamuiCouple]

I would never recommend putting another's needs ahead of your own totally, for the long term. It will never work. Eventually it will catch up with you. You have one life, your needs need to be met as well. Well, most of them.

I have been through pretty much the same situation as you. I do not regret the road I followed, even though it cost others and myself quite a high price. I did what I had to do in order to have a life as opposed to an existence, which I believe is everyone's right.

I did whatever I could, putting in a lot of effort, to try and mitigate the hurt I was causing to my family as far as possible, without giving up my right to a life.

I cannot recommend anything. Only you can figure out what is right for you. All I can offer is my best wishes, it is a tough road you face, either way.

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by l_amante1

But time changes everyone somewhat and I recently tried to get my wife interested in the lifestyle. We met another couple, we went to a couple of parties, all after talking about it for a few months. She gave me the impression she was going to be open minded about it, even bought several sexy dresses to wear to the parties. Then when we got there, she clams up and starts referring to the other people there in unflattering terms. I was embarrassed and annoyed. We came very close to calling it quits.

Your wife did much more than most would in her shoes. She tried. She did that for your sake, you know - she is not interested in swinging for herself. Rather than valuing the fact that she stepped far out of her comfort zone to get the slut clothes and try going to the swinger parties, you were ready to "call it quits" with your wife just because she was uncomfortable at her first sex party.

I swing (I'm the one who suggested it), but if my husband was as wound up about swinging as you are, and if my husband put swinging above me, I would not swing.

You feel caged in, and you want to be free to be yourself. However, do you let your wife be herself? You kept referring to the different culture that she comes from, the different values. She is who she is. You don't respect her - you want her to turn into somebody else and reinvent herself, "or else". Nobody has the right to pressure someone else into being who they are not.

[l_amante1]

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

Your wife did much more than most would in her shoes. She tried. She did that for your sake, you know - she is not interested in swinging for herself. Rather than valuing the fact that she stepped far out of her comfort zone to get the slut clothes and try going to the swinger parties, you were ready to "call it quits" with your wife just because she was uncomfortable at her first sex party.

I swing (I'm the one who suggested it), but if my husband was as wound up about swinging as you are, and if my husband put swinging above me, I would not swing.

You feel caged in, and you want to be free to be yourself. However, do you let your wife be herself? You kept referring to the different culture that she comes from, the different values. She is who she is. You don't respect her - you want her to turn into somebody else and reinvent herself, "or else". Nobody has the right to pressure someone else into being who they are not.

Many messages can be pulled apart and dissected for meaning. I am sure in one as long as the one I wrote there are many such places for this. However, sometimes you have to look at the whole to get the full context and meaning of what is being said. Tybee, you may want to read my original in it's entirety and re-evaluate what you see in it.

In response to your comments, I did not try to make my wife turn into someone she isn't, I asked her to look at expanding her horizons and experience with something she had not given any real thought to. Remember I said we talked about this for months prior to doing anything. Also remember I said I tried to expose her to many other things before we looked at this. None of which involved sex.

You seem to think I was the one to initiate the idea of "calling it quits". Actually she has been the one to bring up the "D" word in every instance. I finally agreed to think about such a thing as a result of seeing her raise my hopes by saying maybe next time on three occasions only to watch her become a total ass about it. Had she simply said she just can't see herself in this lifestyle; without the dramatics and very insulting comments about it; I would have just as quietly accepted it. It was her vehement display of total disrespect for an entire group of people and their lifestyle that was so ugly as to make me sick which lead to my consideration of divorce.

The last thing I'll respond to is your comment that I do not respect my wife. You are wrong! I did not force or pressure her to do anything she wasn't ready to do. I made it clear from the beginning and continuously throughout the experience that her feelings and happiness were paramount. If I had no respect for my wife, I would have simply played with every woman who showed interest in me at the parties and thought "the hell with her, if she doesn't want to play she could just sit there", I didn't. I stayed with her and played with no one waiting for her to either embrace the lifestyle, or at the least give it a full trial. Yes she tried, somewhat. She bought the dresses and went to the parties. I really appreciate that. For over 24 years I've demonstrated my love and respect for this woman. How dare you imply otherwise! But I wonder, if tomorrow your husband really did say he was done with the lifestyle, would you really give it up too? Talk is cheap, I know.

To everyone else, I simply posted my experience and perspective in the hope it may provide some benefit to another member. I did not intend to become the topic myself. This is Texmo's thread, lets keep that in mind and respond to him, not trash each others comments.

[Tybee Swing]

I'll answer you briefly:

Originally Posted by l_amante1

I stayed with her and played with no one waiting for her to either embrace the lifestyle, or at the least give it a full trial. Yes she tried, somewhat. She bought the dresses and went to the parties.

Your choices are very limiting - (a) embrace swinging or (b) do it as a trial. What if a person knows in her heart that she does not want to swing? Most people know that they do not want this lifestyle (or hobby, whichever). They don't have to go all the way through with it as a trial to know this. In my opinion, your very limited two choices don't allow for her to "just say no". To not take a person at their word, trusting that they know themselves, is in my opinion disrespectful.

If I became very uncomfortable at a swing party and shared this with my husband, he'd respect me by guiding me to the nearest exit - he wouldn't get irritated with me or disappointed in me. In fact, we have exited a swing party or two under these circumstances. We always have each other's backs.

Originally Posted by l_amante1

But I wonder, if tomorrow your husband really did say he was done with the lifestyle, would you really give it up too?

If he had said no before we did it the first time, I'd have been fine with that. If he wanted to stop now, about 2.5 years into our being swingers, I'd support that 100% and say goodbye to swinging forever. If I wanted or needed to stop, he would do the same for me. Why? Because our relationship is #1, no matter what. Swinging is just an activity to enhance our sexuality together, as a couple. It's not about all the other women in the world he can fuck. It's not about all the other men out there that I can fuck. It's about us.

The reason I'm very sure that we will both respect and honor our own relationship above swinging or not, is because this was the deal we made before we started. As we discussed everything, we agreed that regardless of the reason, if either of us was uncomfortable with any particular situation, environment, partners, or even with swinging as a whole, we would both exit the situation (or quit) with no questioning/nagging/cajoling, or regrets. Being in it for a bit of time now, we still feel exactly the same way about this as we did before we started.

I hope this clarifies our stance on swinging, and what it means (or what little it means) to us. There are many other couples in swinging who feel about this just as we do: our relationship #1 always, swinging very secondary.