He wants to swing...I don't want to...and it's killing me!!!

[sereneiders]

There are certain things in your porst that called my attention.

1) You said this could be a NEED for him. IF this is true, then it would support your doubts about your hability to satisfy him in bed. Perhaps you're seeing this as a NEED because of your own insecurities. In any case, wheter it is a need or you felt it is a need for him, you'd be facing issues insid your relationship that you'd have to face, before even thinking of swinging or not.

2) I understand the way you feel, and that you understand the difference between love and plain sex. Moreover, I believe the problem is, while you understand there is a difference, such a difference doesn't seems to apply to you: you enjoy "making love", and once compared to what you get from "making love", the "plain sex" loses the atraction. This is more than fine, and you'd stick to your feelings. You shouldn't force yourself to change this just to attempt to swing. You'de ba "taking one for the team", and this doesn't seems to be a good idea.

3) I am wondering what happens to you when regarding to sexual fantasies. This can be put as the following question: ¿Do you believe it is valid to fantasize of some other people but your spouse? ¿Do you believe it is valid to do so while you're making love?

For some people (and I guess, even for some swingers), even when the answer for the first question were "yes", the answer for the second may be "no". When you said how you felt wen your BF told you about "sharing" while making love to you, it seemed to me that for you the anser for the second question would be "no". If i am right here, I believe that (whether you ever swing or not) its worth to talk with your BF about this.

[Babysteps]

I have been VERY anxiuos to respond to YOUR reply Intuition......

I discovered that he wasn't actually asking anything of me; he was offering me a pretty unique and selfless gift.

Here's a shocker: to other happy swingers, you already ARE just another pussy! They just haven't had sex with you yet. And by that, I mean that you are part of the rest of the world outside of their relationship with one another. There's inside, and then there's outside. You're on the outside of their relationship and always will be. That guy's not being cold. He's just giving you all that he has to offer you, which is respect, courtesy, kindness...and honesty. He has no love to give you, so if you need to feel loved to enjoy sex, swinging may not be much fun for you. You're better off recognizing that now and saving yourself from making a big mistake.

Possibly......I'll consider this outlook......BUT.....in "offering ME a pretty unique and selfless gift".....HE in turn also is getting the very same. One must ask, "what are his motivations"? Is it MY pleasure and/or enjoyment?......OR HIS "through the back door", so to speak?? Or is it I get something, HE gets something, for the benefit of our relationship?

It might help us to better understand where you're coming from if you can tell us what you feel the negative aspects are.

I'll get back to you on this one.

It's probably because he thinks so much of you that he mentioned it. He wants an honest relationship with you, and this is an expression of his love and trust in you. Seems backwards, but it's true. Men who are successful in the lifestyle are lacking something alright: a big ego. It's a bit like they're saying, "My wife/girlfriend is too much woman than any one man has a right to keep all to himself. She's too awesome to be kept caged up. I'd rather see her in her natural habitat than keep in captivity." Your man is a purist. He sees you in a way you don't yet see yourself: as a woman who commands sexual attention and respect, who leaves a trail of spent men in her wake. He sees you as a goddess and he just doesn't feel that he has a right to manage your sexuality for you. He doesn't even want to. He wants you to take it back and use it. If you really are unhappy to be given back the freedom to do as you please, you just need to explain to him exactly why.

Intuition, I REALLY REALLY appreciate your thoughts......BUT.....your perspective indicates that for alot of men involved in the lifestyle its, "all about HER"......HER satisfaction, HER desires, HER wants and needs. AGAIN, Like he's not getting something in return for this "gift". TRUE GIVING, giving that has an UNselfish motivation is given WITHOUT expecting anything in return. I MIGHT be able to more easily consider this view....IF HE weren't also on the receiving end too.....( Ohhhh God.......I HOPE your getting my point, I tried my best on that one).....lol.

Okay, do NOT do move forward if you feel this way. His whole point is to see you enjoying yourself and feeling more liberated. He doesn't want you to martyr yourself for his sake. Trust me, the sex-with-other-women thing is just not as important to him as you're imagining it is. If he's anything like Mr. intuition, it's just a nice plus. If he knew that you would be hurt by seeing him with another woman, I would sincerely hope he would never do that

.

I KNOW, like, THERE'S NO DOUBT IN MY MIND, that if I approached him and said......"I just can't, not ready, not at this time", that he'll COMPLETELY accept that, and respect my thoughts and feelings. He's NOT an insensitive, selfish ass, HE LOVES ME, and would NEVER try to push me into this or manipulate me. I DON'T fear for the relationship if the swinging doesn't work out. I'm confident in it. And I'm NOT the type to participate in something that I KNOW is not going to be good for me......just to see him happy, ( like alot of women do). The expression, "Easier to open a somewhat closed mind than CLOSE an open one", comes to mind. I'm frustrated with myself. Too many tangents to consider.

I love to see my husband doing the same things to another woman that he does with me, because it almost seems like an out-of-body experience. I'm standing back watching, knowing the sensations this other woman is feeling because he's made me feel them too. But it's fascinating because she reacts completely differently than the way I do. And she looks different than me. It puts his sexuality into context so to speak.

Intuition, you have a knack for putting all of this in such a, "SEE , EVERYBODY'S HAPPY" context. I think that you might "glamourize" and "idealize" this somewhat. I think that if alot of swingers were to be honest with themselves......they'd admit that if it weren't for their swinging activities, one or both of them would be involved in an affair, and I DON'T think that makes a very good statement about the relationship. I'm NOT criticizing.....but maybe looking at aspects that SOME might refuse to explore.

Here's a shocker: to other happy swingers, you already ARE just another pussy! They just haven't had sex with you yet. And by that, I mean that you are part of the rest of the world outside of their relationship with one another. There's inside, and then there's outside. You're on the outside of their relationship and always will be. That guy's not being cold. He's just giving you all that he has to offer you, which is respect, courtesy, kindness...and honesty. He has no love to give you, so if you need to feel loved to enjoy sex, swinging may not be much fun for you. You're better off recognizing that now and saving yourself from making a big mistake.

I can appreciate this statement......and I KNOW that love has no part of it......and I certainly wouldn't engage in swinging looking for love, but this entire statement screamed COLD to me......I don't want to be in a cold bed.......but I WOULD like to be in a bed where there's SOME consideration for there being a WOMAN......a PERSON......attached to that pussy.


Intuition, I hope that I haven't offended you in ANY way. I woke up this morning with a little bit more of a "jaded" opinion than I usually have about it. I'm actually tired of this consuming so much of my thoughts during the day, I need to have a talk with him, put this to rest for a bit. The sanity thing.....lol. And the negatives?? Here's just some of my thoughts on that.

I have read alot of posts here, one in particular comes to mind. There was this one gal asking for advice......SHE HAD TAN LINES ( LMFAO ), and she was so concerned about how she would "look" while playing, ( still laughing!)....so here I am......reading this.......and thinking to myself......"IS SHE F**KING KIDDING???......SHE'S ABOUT TO F**K.....A NEAR PERFECT STRANGER......AND SHE'S WORRIED ABOUT HER TAN LINES????!!!!!"......pretty shallow. See, I AM shy, ( until I really get to know someone).....and I'm early 40's.....my tits sag.....and yes I have a tummy.....I think alot of swingers are a little too wrapped up in the looks thing. And I HAVE read all of the posts that say ( more or less), that swingers come in all shapes and sizes, you just need to be comfortable and confident in yourself, its the confidence that matters. My Honey says he LOVES my body type, but that's HIM.....HE LOVES ME......another man???......well......you know what I'm saying here.
I also have a hard time with the "cold" factor, like I previously mentioned. The attitude of, "look honey......your here for OUR purposes NOT yours.....get used to it".
I have a hard time with the risk of STD's and the potential precautions that one must take. Like if I'm going to f**k, I WANT TO F**K.....I would totally insist on condom for the act, but otherwise the necessity of any other type of barrier or limit is a BIG turn off. And I have read all the posts on THAT too, and my honest opinion is that any swinger who DID at one time or another become "sexually UNhealthy" as a result of an encounter would probably never admit it. I have yet to read the post that says, "Yaaaa, I got pubic lice, and HERE'S HOW I GOT RID OF IT".....get it??

This is all that I have for now, this took me a long time, I hope you understand some of my concerns. I must go now, but I STILL DO have more.

[Babysteps]

Shit.....I did that wrong ^^^......forgot tags......hope you can still understand it!

My apologies.

[Babysteps]

Somewhat fixed up.....a lil messed up in the beginning.....but I believe all my responses are there. ( F**king novices!)......lol.

[gatorvol64]

Originally Posted by Babysteps

Intuition, I REALLY REALLY appreciate your thoughts......BUT.....your perspective indicates that for alot of men involved in the lifestyle its, "all about HER"......HER satisfaction, HER desires, HER wants and needs. AGAIN, Like he's not getting something in return for this "gift". TRUE GIVING, giving that has an UNselfish motivation is given WITHOUT expecting anything in return. I MIGHT be able to more easily consider this view....IF HE weren't also on the receiving end too.....( Ohhhh God.......I HOPE your getting my point, I tried my best on that one).....lol.

Well, you'll find me agreeing with Intuition on this. For us, it was really about a gift from him. But, yes, he did get something in return. He got to see and know the enjoyment he had given me. It may help to know that all he intended for us was MFM. Sure, it took me a while to understand why he wanted this but then I did realize that he was wanting to give me something. It was I who wanted to take things further. It was I who had to convince him I would be comfortable with being with a single women or a couple. The initial fantasy was his and he didn't expect any sort of reciprocation. But I sure as hell wanted to give it. So, we talked and he finally got that I felt the same as he had. And we haven't looked back (regardless of the situation we have been facing with our child). I simply LOVE seeing him be all that he is without restrictions involved. Do we have some boundaries we each won't cross? Yes, definitely. But they are very few and the list got reduced to those few over time. You know, mostly things like safe sex. It isn't on our list to respect each other and not do something we think the other would have a problem with if faced with a situation we haven't ever encountered. That is just a given. That is something we do in ALL things, not just swinging.

You have every right to your opinions and feelings. But, what you understood as Intuition's perspective about a lot of men in the lifestyle is fairly accurate. The thing is, it really boils down to mutual "true giving" for most on this board. I'm not sure I can explain to you how my husband and I got the this place. You absolutely have to have the ability to communicate your thoughts and feelings with each other but, I imagine that we each reached that ability in somewhat different ways.

Originally Posted by Babysteps

Intuition, you have a knack for putting all of this in such a, "SEE , EVERYBODY'S HAPPY" context. I think that you might "glamourize" and "idealize" this somewhat. I think that if alot of swingers were to be honest with themselves......they'd admit that if it weren't for their swinging activities, one or both of them would be involved in an affair, and I DON'T think that makes a very good statement about the relationship. I'm NOT criticizing.....but maybe looking at aspects that SOME might refuse to explore.

God, I almost forgot. And I very much wanted to address this. NO, we would NOT be involved in an affair if we didn't swing! If, for any reason, just one of us wanted to stop, it is over. No more. We love each other and do not need anyone else for that or sex or anything. Our relationship is not lacking at all! I can not stress this strongly enough.

I wish you luck. Not in swinging so much, but in coming to an understanding of what you think he means by suggesting this and what he actually does mean and expect from it. Talk to him...that is the only way you will know. Try to let go of your preconceived understanding of his motives and just listen. You could be right, but just think...what if you are wrong? Talking openly and honestly with him can only improve your relationship, no matter how good it already is.

Vol

[Babysteps]

You have every right to your opinions and feelings. But, what you understood as Intuition's perspective about a lot of men in the lifestyle is fairly accurate.

I just want to be sure that I understood this statement. So what your saying is that alot of men in the lifestyle DO give this gift to their partners, with what THEY'RE going to get in return......a sexual experience with a new partner, in mind, PRIMARILY in mind???

And some of the views that I expressed AREN'T necessarily my STEADFAST opinions, but maybe just a new way to look at the lifestyle, probably a very UNpopular way of looking at it. The way the 2 of you became involved in the lifestyle sounds close to ideal. It was an evolution......YOU enjoyed it so much that you wanted HIM to experience the same. WONDERFUL! True giving. I commend you! All I was trying to say was this, on the surface many men want to make it appear that, "It's all about YOU baby".....but it's actually THEIR "end" that might be the primary focus. Sorry, but I belive that I'm not doing a very good job of expressing my thoughts.

[intuition897]

Just a few things in response...

Originally Posted by Babysteps

Intuition, you have a knack for putting all of this in such a, "SEE , EVERYBODY'S HAPPY" context. I think that you might "glamourize" and "idealize" this somewhat. I think that if alot of swingers were to be honest with themselves......they'd admit that if it weren't for their swinging activities, one or both of them would be involved in an affair, and I DON'T think that makes a very good statement about the relationship. I'm NOT criticizing.....but maybe looking at aspects that SOME might refuse to explore.

While I do tend to idealize things (just my INFP personality), I must strongly disagree with your feeling that we would cheat. The whole point is that Mr. intuition and I no longer allow sex to call the shots. That tail isn't wagging this dog anymore. Cheating is just not an option for us. And that is the hard cold truth. If you do a search on this board and look up "cheating" or "cheater", you're bound to see a multitude of posts that scream loud and clear exactly how swingers view cheating. You'll probably find my posts on that topic on nearly every thread since 2004. No, if Mr. intuition ever did divorce (although I just can't imagine why we would) I know for a FACT that it would not be because of sex or cheating. It doesn't have that power anymore, because we took it back.

Originally Posted by Babysteps

I can appreciate this statement......and I KNOW that love has no part of it......and I certainly wouldn't engage in swinging looking for love, but this entire statement screamed COLD to me......I don't want to be in a cold bed.......but I WOULD like to be in a bed where there's SOME consideration for there being a WOMAN......a PERSON......attached to that pussy.
.....
I also have a hard time with the "cold" factor, like I previously mentioned. The attitude of, "look honey......your here for OUR purposes NOT yours.....get used to it".

This is your imagined scenario. The reality I've experienced is not like that at all. I am respected and appreciated by my playmates, or they don't get to play with me. Period. It just means that they respect the emotional boundaries of my relationship with my husband and likewise, we respect theirs. It's not coldness; it's simply maintaining a respectful distance. We respect marriage (and other long-term relationships) very deeply, and hold them sacred. That means our own marriage, and those of others...even if the other couple can't respect it themselves. We have refused to play with couples whom we suspect are having marital difficulties or are swinging for the wrong reasons. We don't want to play any part in the demise of a relationship that we know from experience has the potential for such greatness. But we can't do much beyond that because we recognize that it is THEIR relationship. Their joys and problems are theirs alone and none of our business. Likewise, we expect the same courtesy. Now I don't consider that "cold" in the least, but then again, that's just a matter of opinion, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Babysteps

Intuition, I hope that I haven't offended you in ANY way. I woke up this morning with a little bit more of a "jaded" opinion than I usually have about it. I'm actually tired of this consuming so much of my thoughts during the day, I need to have a talk with him, put this to rest for a bit. The sanity thing.....lol.

Meh, think nothing of it. Just haven't had your coffee yet. Been there. It takes a lot more than someone's honest opinion to personally offend me. I understand how emotionally draining this must be for you. Believe me I do, as we've been there before. You mentioned that you're feeling a reluctance to talk to him; have you told him this? Don't cave in to fear of communication! If you notice that something is difficult, aim for that first. Chew away at the difficult, scary things. It can be a little dangerous, yes, because when you ask the questions, you get the answers...and sometimes the truth of the matter is disappointing. I would say maybe you should give him a "not right now" answer. Don't beat yourself up over this! It's not worth it. I know you want him to be happy, but you'll BOTH be happier if you say no, than if you say yes and do something you'll both regret.

Originally Posted by Babysteps

And the negatives?? Here's just some of my thoughts on that.

I have read alot of posts here, one in particular comes to mind. There was this one gal asking for advice......SHE HAD TAN LINES ( LMFAO ), and she was so concerned about how she would "look" while playing, ( still laughing!)....so here I am......reading this.......and thinking to myself......"IS SHE F**KING KIDDING???......SHE'S ABOUT TO F**K.....A NEAR PERFECT STRANGER......AND SHE'S WORRIED ABOUT HER TAN LINES????!!!!!"......pretty shallow. See, I AM shy, ( until I really get to know someone).....and I'm early 40's.....my tits sag.....and yes I have a tummy.....I think alot of swingers are a little too wrapped up in the looks thing. And I HAVE read all of the posts that say ( more or less), that swingers come in all shapes and sizes, you just need to be comfortable and confident in yourself, its the confidence that matters. My Honey says he LOVES my body type, but that's HIM.....HE LOVES ME......another man???......well......you know what I'm saying here.

I won't lie. We're not active swingers right now partly because we're just not comfortable in our skin the way we are. We've gained weight and aren't feeling very fit or healthy. This isn't so much about vanity as it is about self-appreciation. I'm sure we could find playmates who still found us physically attractive...if we had confidence in our physical bodies. But we don't. Therefore, we're likely to be a lot less attractive to others out there. I think it's more about acheiving a healthy self-image and being realistic. It's one thing for your husband to tell you that you are the sexiest woman on the planet...because he loves you and that's how he sees you. It's quite another to hear appreciative comments from a complete stranger. Those comments are maybe more realistic because they're not passed through the "love filter". I just think that attractiveness DOES have a lot to do with how we view ourselves.

Originally Posted by Babysteps

I have a hard time with the risk of STD's and the potential precautions that one must take. Like if I'm going to f**k, I WANT TO F**K.....I would totally insist on condom for the act, but otherwise the necessity of any other type of barrier or limit is a BIG turn off. And I have read all the posts on THAT too, and my honest opinion is that any swinger who DID at one time or another become "sexually UNhealthy" as a result of an encounter would probably never admit it. I have yet to read the post that says, "Yaaaa, I got pubic lice, and HERE'S HOW I GOT RID OF IT".....get it??

The worst thing we "caught" in 5 years of swinging was a yeast infection. And just about anything can cause that. I really feel that being selective about who we have sex with has a big impact on our risk factor. I think you're probably a lot more likely to get an STD from Sally Sleazemore and Bob Fucksalot at the local watering hole, considering they're out sneaking around on their spouses, and being just as bad as they can be, and they don't give a damn about who they have sex with, as long as they get what they want. They bury their heads in the sand, saying "STDs can't happen to me". They can't even be honest with themselves; how honest do you suppose they'd be with their sex partners? Honesty is NOT in their vocabulary. From what we've seen, swingers aren't having sex with other people "by accident". They are usually very well-informed about sex practices and risks, they have their rules, and feel a sense of responsibility in making sure they and their playmates follow said rules. It's a conscious decision. Now that's not to say that we aren't spontaneous, but I think you just get practiced at reading people. The couples involved are monogamous other than the decided-upon sexual activities they engage in with other otherwise-monogamous couples like themselves. There is no hidden sexual activity. You see it over and over again in ads: "D&D free, and want to keep it that way!"

Yes there are risks, but we consider the level of risk to be within acceptable limits...certainly better than trying our hand at the standard single's scene! But that's a decision every couple - every person - must make for themselves.

[gatorvol64]

Originally Posted by Babysteps

I just want to be sure that I understood this statement. So what your saying is that alot of men in the lifestyle DO give this gift to their partners, with what THEY'RE going to get in return......a sexual experience with a new partner, in mind, PRIMARILY in mind???

And some of the views that I expressed AREN'T necessarily my STEADFAST opinions, but maybe just a new way to look at the lifestyle, probably a very UNpopular way of looking at it. The way the 2 of you became involved in the lifestyle sounds close to ideal. It was an evolution......YOU enjoyed it so much that you wanted HIM to experience the same. WONDERFUL! True giving. I commend you! All I was trying to say was this, on the surface many men want to make it appear that, "It's all about YOU baby".....but it's actually THEIR "end" that might be the primary focus. Sorry, but I belive that I'm not doing a very good job of expressing my thoughts.

No, you are expressing your thoughts well enough. I understand what you are saying. And I won't lie to you. I said I think a lot of men do give a gift. Not all of them. I should have made that clear that you are more than right about some men. I just wanted to point out that, while I do not know your boyfriend, you may have his reason wrong. And that it is possible for him to feel as others do. But the bottom line is that you will never know for sure until you TALK with him about it. Why assume that it is more about him? Find out.

And isn't it a gift when both of you give the other freedom to explore without jealousies and with encouragement? You, also, can give as well as receive. I feel for swinging to work, it has to be a mutual giving of freedom. Sure, you have to decide what you are both comfortable with but, there is a tremendous amount of happiness in this if you are open, honest and sincere in your actions.

And you are right, I suppose we did evolve into this. Which is why things may be going as well as they are for us. If you were to read some of my other post, you would find that I've said several times that we were just ready for this now.

I also want you to understand that if you NEVER feel this is for you, do NOT feel bad about this. I believe you when you say he loves you. And that being the case, he wouldn't want you to do something you just aren't comfortable with. And that is not something for you to feel guilty about.

Vol

[Bad Sandy]

Ok now, I didn't read all the other posts before responding, so I appologize if I repeat what anyone else has said.

Originally Posted by Babysteps

"I don't want to waste my time OR energy having yes, fantastic sex, but its not going to be the mind blowing, EXTRAORDINARY, out of this world sex that I have with my Honey", JUST for the sake of having a NEW experience with a DIFFERENT partner. Why settle for something that is "close", when you can have he WHOLE ENCHILLADA!??

????

Well, it's sort of like this, I love lobster. To me it is the most divine food on earth. There is nothing else I eat that tastes quite so delicious. Still, I enjoy eating steak, chicken, pasta, you get the idea. It's sort of a crude example except that sometimes the other foods taste great and you might even enjoy the lobster more because of them. In fact I find I want the lobster even more often and tend to eat it ravenously!

Alright, enough food! lol What I'm trying to say is that I connect with my husband in ways that we never did until after swinging. That seems ridiculous to you, I know, I was there. I can just tell you that we do. (And we have always has a fantastic relationship!) We had great sex before, but now it is almost as if things are magnified. It isn't really the sex that does it, I think it's the deep level of trust and intimacy I share with him now. Whenever we play with a great couple it just feels like the most natural thing on earth.

Swinging might not be for you, but in hind sight I see that I couldn't have understood it until AFTER I had done it. So unfortunately its a bit of a catch 22.

The very best to you!

Sandy

[Bad Sandy]

ok, now I read the rest and wanted to comment on some...

Originally Posted by Babysteps

Possibly......I'll consider this outlook......BUT.....in "offering ME a pretty unique and selfless gift".....HE in turn also is getting the very same. One must ask, "what are his motivations"? Is it MY pleasure and/or enjoyment?......OR HIS "through the back door", so to speak?? Or is it I get something, HE gets something, for the benefit of our relationship?

oh, my, you sound JUST LIKE ME! lol I must have thrown that phrase "It's all about her" out at him 20 times. I couldn't understand that! That seemed ridiculous! The truth is that it wasn't all about me, it was all about US.

Originally Posted by Babysteps

My Honey says he LOVES my body type, but that's HIM.....HE LOVES ME......another man???......well......you know what I'm saying here.

I spent most of my teens and young adulthood lamenting my figure. I am a pear and longed to have no hips or butt. Suprise, suprise, the number one flattering comments I get in this lifestyle... my hips and butt! lol I now embrace my curves and wouldn't want to lose them. Sure, there are men who prefer a different body shape but it doesn't matter. I love my body for the first time since puberty!

Originally Posted by Babysteps

I have a hard time with the risk of STD's and the potential precautions that one must take. Like if I'm going to f**k, I WANT TO F**K.....I would totally insist on condom for the act, but otherwise the necessity of any other type of barrier or limit is a BIG turn off.

This was the hardest thing to get over. But you know, I am FAR more likely to die in a car wreck, yet I haven't stopped driving. I know the dangers of heart disease, and yet I still eat steak. We always use condoms for intercourse. Not for anything else.

And as far as the cheating comment goes. I am certain that there have been men who wanted to swing because they just wanted sex with other women. But cheating is NOT about geting to havesex with another woman or man. It is about having an emotional need filled by someone other than your spouse. Cheaters do so because they need to feel loved, respected, powerful, something. I have read over and over that it is not about sex. From what you have said about your beloved, he is not asking this as an alternative to cheating on you. The same is true for most of the rest of us.

And finally, Intuition, I am FLATTERED by your comment to me. Your posts have always been incredible insightful and helpful to me on my own journey. Thanks.

Sandy

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by Babysteps

All I was trying to say was this, on the surface many men want to make it appear that, "It's all about YOU baby".....but it's actually THEIR "end" that might be the primary focus. Sorry, but I belive that I'm not doing a very good job of expressing my thoughts.

No I think that clarifies things, actually. Correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe this is just a matter of trust. Okay, I know that you're going to tell me that you trust one another implicitly... but there's trust...and then there's [B]TRUST[/B]. Your honey is more than just a man. We're all more than just our gender. He isn't all those other men out there. He's Mr. Babysteps. He's yours. YOUR man. Now ask yourself honestly...is that really what YOUR man is all about? Putting an orgasm ahead of his feelings for you? Forget about the fact that he's a man for a minute, because while that may mean he has tendencies (just as women do) to certain behaviours and thought patterns, it doesn't mean it's right for anyone to simply assume anything about anyone based on gender. Many people, for example, might assume that I'm emotionally fragile or that I naturally confuse love and sex simply because I'm a woman. We have to be people first and men or women second. So just because you've heard the stereotype that it's normal for men to be non-monogamous and that their brains are often over-ridden by their penises, it just doesn't hold true when you look at the individual. Give him the benefit of the doubt, and don't automatically assume he's thinking the worst. Would he be happy to have sex with other women? Sure! But I'm thinking he really could either take it or leave it.

You know, I probably should stop shooting my mouth off until I've heard his side of the story. Is Mr. Babysteps interested in commenting on anything?

[flkeyscouple]

Originally Posted by Babysteps

Intuition, you have a knack for putting all of this in such a, "SEE , EVERYBODY'S HAPPY" context. I think that you might "glamourize" and "idealize" this somewhat. I think that if alot of swingers were to be honest with themselves......they'd admit that if it weren't for their swinging activities, one or both of them would be involved in an affair, and I DON'T think that makes a very good statement about the relationship. I'm NOT criticizing.....but maybe looking at aspects that SOME might refuse to explore.

First let me say I've enjoyed this thread. The concerns of Babysteps are so real and remind me of some of the concerns I had originally. Intuition, you are so well 'written' that it amazes me sometimes! Good job.

Babysteps... your quote above concerns me. I truly think that most swingers are very honest with themselves knowing that they are so far from having affairs or cheating. For myself, personally, I know that if either Roger or I wanted to quit the lifestyle all we'd have to do is say 'when'. We'd quit, no questions asked. We don't need the lifestyle to fulfill our sex life - we have a GREAT sex life without any swinging. We don't need the lifestyle for friendship, or things to do. We ONLY have the lifestyle for FUN! We would quit immediately if either of us suggested quitting.

I think, in fact I KNOW you'd find a great distaste for cheaters and/or affairs among swingers.

Sarah

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by intuition897

No I think that clarifies things, actually. ...

Dito

Even more, this is a perfect example of prejudice leading our toughts... you don't know WHY your hubby wants to do this, besides what he tells you, you doubt on his word.

There's anything wrong about this, you lack information, and you fill the voids for the particular case with generalizations you believe in... Unless there's something ringing your bell about your husband (miss)behavior, able to reinforce your belief.

In any case, there's only one way to solve the lack of information problem, and it is: go to the source and get it.

So IF you really ponder the idea of swinging, you should TALK about all of this with HIM. No one in the forum knows him, nor is able to speak on his behalf, so it doesn't matter how much questions you ask here, how long we discuss all of this, you have to talk with HIM. If you read around, you'd know the motto by now: "TALK, TALK and TALK".

If you're looking for arguments to avoid the whole thing (which is ok), you either you have to recognize swinging isn't for you, or we have to suppose your hubby is way more pushy than what you like to admit.

In any case, I believe it'd be worth for you, and for your relationship, to get to know your hubby better than what you actually do. Get to know him means that there shouldn't be information voids for you to fill with generalizations. And if this sort of generalizations ends up being true in your particular case, then you have a big trouble inside your relationship.

After all, your belief that swingers would be otherwise cheaters comes from the very same prejudice: guys are lead by their dicks, and either their wives indulge them by "being there" (making swinging a charade for cheating), or they have to live knowing their hubbies could be fucking an stranger behind their backs every moment they're not at home.

And wheter you ever swing or not, this is the root of an issue you will have to face sooner or later, because you already granted credit to the generalization, over the information you have or you may gather from your husband: you see your husband as one of those "lead by their dicks" guy, and my guts tells me that you're trying to find a way to engage in swinging just to avoif the supossedly fate of end up being cheated on.

If this is true, then you're trying to take one for the team BIG TIME, to take the whole responsibility for your relationship, but... a relationship is made by two, the responsibility is a shared one, and there's nothing you can do to take over your shoulders whatever responsability belonging to your hubby.

IF you hubby really were one of those "lead by their dicks" guy, then he WILL cheat on you, EVEN if you indulge him swinging. Whether your swing or not, it won't change this fact, so... do NOT swing if it doesn't thrills you.

SWINGING ISN'T A RECIPE TO PRESERVE NOR TO SAVE A RELATIONSHIP.

So, stop talking of swinging and start getting to know your husband, bearing in mind that you may dislike what you'll find out, to the point of realizing there is no future in the relationship... but also that you could find a prize: to find out how solid the relationship foundings are as to have a future, EVEN if you two NEVER, EVER swing.

[intuition897]

I just have to Dito sereneiders reply. That pretty much says it all.

[catslaughing]

Umm kiss method.

If you do not want to do it, say no. If this is not an acceptable answer, then find someone else.