Considering Counseling because husband wants to return to swinging and wife not open

[Sentinel]

Hello all~

First time poster here. Sorry in advance for the length. I've lurked for quite a while, though, and to this point have never really seen an issue like what I'm having. I've been in the lifestyle since 2000 or so, and met a lot of really great people- in my honest opinion you'll never find a group of more open, friendly folks than you will in a community such as ours. You guys are just a lot of fun! I always feel accepted and welcome when going to a club or party that's frequented by fellow swingers.

Anyway, I met a girl outside of the lifestyle 3 years ago. We fell in love & got married, and have been hitched pretty happily for 2 years now. She was aware of my swinging background before we were engaged (I mentioned it on our 3rd date- honesty is always the best policy, you know?), but had no desire to participate in it herself. At the point where I got married, I thought this was it: I've found the woman of my dreams and my swinging past is exactly that- the past.

We're pretty adventurous sexually. I've taken my wife to swing clubs in Indiana and Ohio, and it really opened her eyes when it came to the lifestyle- she agrees with me that swingers are a fun group of people, and feels completely comfortable going around topless or nude at any of the clubs we frequent.

Herein lies the issue: she's fine with going to the clubs, fine with showing off her bod, but when it comes to sex she insists it's in a private room, and will not consider the possibility of getting others involved. So really, it's not swinging per se. It's an opportunity for us to dress provocatively, dance and have sex in an exotic location. This works great for her, and I respect her boundaries. I'm happy being with her, too, but at the same time I can't help but miss how great it felt to be in a group situation!

I miss chatting with fellow swingers online and flirting. I miss that incredible thrill when you leave your house for a rendezvous at a bar, either for a first-time meeting or to hook up with old friends. I miss that little awkward moment when everyone starts taking their clothes off prior to getting all hot & sweaty. I miss all of it!

So what do I do? Cheating on my wife is not an option- I love her & plan on spending the rest of my life with her. I've tried to just keep my mind off the whole concept of swinging, but it doesn't work: once you've tried it, and know how good it can be, something like that is impossible to just drop out of your life. I'm sure you folks know what I'm talking about.

To me there's a set difference between making love with my wife and having sex with friends. She doesn't see it that way: to her, intimacy is something to be shared between the two of us, and that's it. This is a basic fundamental difference in our views, and I don't know as though there can be any middle ground there. My choices seem pretty limited: it's either live with my life as it is now and grow more and more frustrated with the situation or seek counselling with some kind of sex therapist. That's the route I'm thinking hard on right now- not only might it help me get some kind of handle over my sexual urges, but it also shows my wife that I'm serious about resolving this whole thing.

This takes an approach I'm not really comfortable with, however: I don't see swinging as "wrong" by any definition of the term, and if a counsellor I'm seeing tries to portray it as such, then I'm gonna have some problems with him/her. Like I said, folks in the lifestyle are great people- my issue is that I miss it and my wife is not into it at all. Any advice anybody might have on this would really be helpful- I'm not sure how to proceed here.

Thanks for listening! Feel free to email me with any advice you might have!

Rob
decadentfun03@yahoo.com

[ohash01]

If you go the therapist route - find an alternate lifestyle "friendly" therapist. There are some therapists out there that will be wonderful and some that still live in the dark ages when it comes to the non-coventional ways of life.

As for your wife, well, someday she MAY warm up to the idea, she may not though. In my opinion, you are on a great track here! You know you miss it, acknowledge that, welcome your wife in to the point that she is comfortable with, and you leave it at that. You love her and won't cheat on her.

If you know you can't keep doing it on your own, then definately seek professional help. But you seem to be doing well.

[girlsnboys]

Do Lifestyle counselors exist?

[MoonLightKiss]

Yes they do exist, although they may be difficult to find. When calling around to find one, do not be afraid to ask them what they specialize in. Do they base their therapuetic sessions on monogamy or are they open minded to multiple partners in the right setting.

[Miss_Piggy]

One thing you could try is searching on the internet for any lifestyle friendly therapist anywhere and contact them asking if they have any advice on similar therapists in your area. They have a tendency to know one another.

I like the counseling idea. Sometimes it's helpful to talk through things and having someone help you do that talking can encourage you to make your communication as effective as possible. You may also gain some new insights. It's a wonderful idea.

You actually sound like you already know what you're doing, what you need to do, and what you can't do. You know that you miss swinging, you know you want to come up with a way to be happy and fulfilled, and you know you don't want to hurt your wife. It's all about talking from here on.

Sorry I don't have anything "advice-wise" to offer.

Best of luck to you both.

[gatorvol64]

I think you are on the right track here. You know what needs to be done and are looking to do it. You are putting your marriage first. I really like that. How to proceed? MoonLightKiss had the right advice. Call counselors and ask what they are open to. I agree that you need one who understands the lifestyle. Enjoy what your wife is willing to participate in. Not all wives will go as far as she is doing. So, you may not have everything you want (and who ever does?) but you have more than a lot of husbands.

Vol

[Sentinel]

Hello all!

Thank you all for the great replies- it means a lot to hear from you and read your thoughts on my issue. This is one of the reasons I really miss swinging! There are so many decent, friendly and cool people in the lifestyle, and you all have my thanks. I'm going to call a counsellor today to see what she has to say, and will let you all know how it goes. In the meantime I plan on researching "lifestyle friendly" counsellors to see if I can come up with anyone around my area (Cleveland).

In the meantime, thanks again, and take care!

Rob
decadentfun03@yahoo.com

[JustAskJulie]

Just remember that the purpose of counseling with your wife should NOT be to convince her to swing. As someone else said she will move at her own pace and compared to many guys in your situation you have a lot to be thankful for that she is willing to do what she does and is that comfortable.

It's hard when you are already comfortable with full blown swinging to go back to start with a new partner and be patient as they get comfortable themselves, but we have to be patient and let them move in their own time, putting ourselves in their shoes and thinking how we would feel if the roles were reversed (which of course is difficult because they are not).

[EvilMJ]

I agree with what Julie has advised, as well I think you need to consult with your wife and make sure she is okay with you contacting a consellor. Don't just surprise her with it

[sereneiders]

I agree with what others said before, but I want to dig deeper on what Julie said.

Originally Posted by Sentinel

Hello all~
My choices seem pretty limited: it's either live with my life as it is now and grow more and more frustrated with the situation or seek counselling with some kind of sex therapist. That's the route I'm thinking hard on right now- not only might it help me get some kind of handle over my sexual urges, but it also shows my wife that I'm serious about resolving this whole thing.

Both objectives are valid ones, however they may not be compatible. It's calls my attention you wording, portrayng what so far you expressed as a missing feeling as a sexual urge, because this is what opens the door to the interpretation that there could be something wrong about you in the swinging context (which differs from something wrong about swinging).

One important disctinction we make is that we swing because we can and NOT because we NEED TO swing, and if we ever feel we do it because we NEED to do it, then we'd have to reconsider the whole thing as a symptom of something odd inside our relationship.

So, back to you, your choice (perhpas unconscious) for the word "urge" implies a NEED or a craving, more than just a matter of taste or liking.

This is the sort of "slips" a therapist would catch in the air, and even if a swinger-friendly, portray this particular case as potentially wrong. And even more important than the portrait itself, he may be right about this, at least as being the fundament for that difference with your wife that you called fundamental.

If I got this impression just from your post, from how odd it sounded to me the use of the word urge, I think it is possible that your wife could be already feeling there is something odd as well, just from hearing you talk about your previous experiences and your current needs, and from your choice of words, and for someone who valuates the intimacy the way she does, this could be way more than enough to trigger a miriad of fears about the relationship and your commitment, because at some point, it seems to me you're putting in the same level your need for swinging and your need for her and for the relationship.

So, back to your objectives for such a counseling, it seems to me the second one, make your wife understand how serious this is for you, ends up being uncompatible with the former one. It actually express your desire about her being the one giving up and changing her mind, and you desire about not being you the one giving up and changing your mind.

It seems to me you're looking for a polite way to make an ultimatum. Your whole marriage would be deppending on her choice about this, and now, I purpose you the exercise of get in her shoes. Do you really believe she will ever give up this way? If she does, she'd be giving up the whole relationship with you, it'd be as important for you, and for her, as just having fun with other people.

So, my advice here is, seek for such a counseling (ensuring the guy is swinger-friendly) but make this second objective explicit. Tell the therapist this about your choice of words, the urge, and ask him/her to focus on this feeling of you.

It isn't your wife the one who needs to understand the meaning of concepts like intimacy or difference between love and sex, but you two who needs to explore the basements of your current relationship and ask yourselves several questions before even thinking of swinging. Just a few I may think of right now, from your post:

Does she have the chance to fulfill your sexual needs, your urge? If she doesn't... why? She may feel unfit to do it, and if so, it's because of something she lacks of? If so, then by engaging in swinging she may be risking to loose you in the expert hands of someone more fit.

I hope this give you the same clue I got here, that perhaps the fundamental difference you both have isn't about theoretical concepts of love and intimacy, but about something that could be going on right now, in your everyday life, and if I am right and it is there, is very likely that it is interferring in your relationship, even beyond the "to swing or not to swing" question, and for sure afecting the question's outcome.

Ultimatelly, I believe that the only chance she have to give it a serious tought about swinging would be possible AFTER you turn this urge into just a matter of taste, i.e., after she's reasured that you put her and the relationship in first place, something that your urge may not be allowing you to do today.

[Sentinel]

Thanks to Sereneiders for bringing up an interesting point: the use of "urges" in my original post. I guess I confused the word with "desires", which is what I should have used- in no way did I mean to imply that swinging is in any way, shape or form deviant or otherwise "wrong". In fact, I'm of the firm believe that as our society grows more and more relaxed when it comes to sex, swinging and those in the lifestyle will be able to be more open about their activities... for now it's still a cool, secret club, and that's what I'm missing.

Thanks also to several posters and folks who contacted me by email directly to let me know how lucky I was that my wife was at least willing to go to swing clubs, which in and of itself is pretty neat. We have a dialogue going about this whole issue, and I just scheduled a counselling appointment with a sex therapist to talk things over- I have intimacy issues as well, so it's not all about swinging.

My point is this, however: how does one go from meeting groups of friends & having lots of naked, sweaty fun *after* hanging out & shooting pool & generally doing what friends do, to hanging out with "vanilla" friends?? That seems like taking a step backwards to me, like going from a state of the art high definition television to a basic tube... with rabbit ears! I need to reconcile this and somehow adjust to it, because I'm fairly sure my wife will not go in the other direction. I respect her decision, I will not cheat on my wife, so an adjustment needs to be made on my part. That's where the counsellor comes in.

Again, many thanks to all who're listening and shooting me advice. Just knowing I can count on my fellow lifestylers to chime in makes this whole deal a lot easier to handle... Cheers and happy holidays!

Rob
decadentfun03@yahoo.com

[LikeMinds321]

Rob ~

There has been plenty of discussion on the Board about how you can't pressure a wife into doing something she is not comfortable with. The subject of "pressure" usually focuses on getting your spouse to swing. But I think there may be another pressure to consider in your case - the pressure you may be under resulting from your wife agreeing to go to swinger clubs while you watch her go topless and even nude in front of everyone.

I have to ask you, does her activity at the club put pressure on you? Does her look-at-me-but-you-can't-touch attitude cause you greater "desire" to swing? If so, I think you're under great pressure, and unfairly so.

What if you never went to clubs again, do you feel your desire to swing would wane?

What if you told your wife you never want to go to clubs again because it puts too much pressure on you, would she agree and honor your request without resentment?

Originally Posted by sereneiders

...perhaps the fundamental difference you both have isn't about theoretical concepts of love and intimacy, but about something that could be going on right now, in your everyday life, and if I am right and it is there, is very likely that it is interferring in your relationship, even beyond the "to swing or not to swing" question, and for sure afecting the question's outcome.

I agree with sereneiders, you should look at your personal relationship and explore that first, together. Put the partying at the clubs on hold.

I don't think going through counseling right now is the best starting point. Start at home, you and your wife talking about your sexual relationship and life together - not about how you can fit swinging into it. From there decide if you need counseling together, not just you alone.

LM

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by Sentinel

My point is this, however: how does one go from meeting groups of friends & having lots of naked, sweaty fun *after* hanging out & shooting pool & generally doing what friends do, to hanging out with "vanilla" friends?? That seems like taking a step backwards to me, like going from a state of the art high definition television to a basic tube... with rabbit ears! I need to reconcile this and somehow adjust to it, because I'm fairly sure my wife will not go in the other direction. I respect her decision, I will not cheat on my wife, so an adjustment needs to be made on my part. That's where the counsellor comes in.

There is a middle ground. I agree that it is very difficult to go back to hanging out with vanilla people after you've gotten used to the open-mindedness of swingers. I also come from a similar situation as you. I was an active swinger with my ex-husband. I got used to the dynamics of swinging and I enjoy them, but moreso I enjoy the people. In the last few years I haven't been actively swinging but my core friends are still swingers. When I started dating my current guy I was very open with him about my swinging past and interests and from the beginning it was an open topic. We regularly go to socials now and he enjoys the people as much as I do and says the same thing, that he'd much rather hang out with swingers than vanilla people. HOWEVER, he is (at this point) on much the same level as your wife, he's not ready to swing. He'll go to the socials, he'll watch me flirt and even do some flirting himself. I'm pretty happy that he's willing to go this far considering that all of this was something he never gave a thought to before I brought it up. I don't know that he will ever be ready to actually swing, or even to have sex in the same room with another couple (and if/when that happens I do think it will have to be a spontanious thing and not something that's been planned - but referencing TNT's recent post while it will be spontanious it won't be something that hasn't been discussed quite a bit).

It's important to be thankful for what you do have. And it's important to remember that as in my situation, this whole concept is something that was new to your wife when you brought it up. Yes, you've had a little longer for her to acclimate to the idea than I have... but she has acclimated quite well. She may never be ready to have sex in the same room with another couple, let alone swap partners, but enjoy what you do have. You do have a wife who is willing to hang out with swingers and enjoy the openness and attitude that swingers share.

What is it that you really want?

[iapr]

I have not read any of the other posts as I like to keep my first impressions original so forgive me if it has already been said.


First off keep in mind that many swinging couples lived traditional monogamous marriages for years before even coming up the idea of swinging and then a lot of them discussed it and thought it through for many months if not years before making any attempt to meet other people. So in comparisson to that you are already several steps ahead of the norm. Perhaps what your wife needs is the same as many other women that have eventually entered the lifestyle and that is to reach a point of stability and trust in the marriage and even a point in life to where you have the house and careers, you have the kids, the tubes have been tied, the cars are paid off, the kids don't need 24 hour attention and now can let your hair down and have some adult fun. That process often can't be rushed and the fact that you have experienced before doesn't atoumatically put you on the fast track. In other words you have now become like every other husband who wants to swing and who's wife doesn't. The more you push the more she will resist. You are just going to have to be pateint and let nature take it's course. The good news is she does seem adventurous and does like the envirment. And quite frankly while we are a full swap couple, what you are describing as your evenings out does sound like fun to me even so just keep enjoying it for what it is and call it good for now. The rest may come in time when she is ready as long as you don't bungle it.

Now as far as this coulseling thing, I have a bad feeling about this. Whenever you suggest to a partner that you see a counselor it is under the assumption of that something is terribly wrong and that a counselor is needed to fix it. so when you say hey honey lets go see a counselor about this swinging issue (I know those won't be your exact words but that is what she will hear) her mind is going to interpret that as you think SHE has a problem since she doesn't want to swing and you are dragging her to a coulelor to try and convince to swing. I know that is not your plan but that is how she will interpret it.

And other thing is if you do go to a couselor there is a very good chance that you will describe your past swinging experience and then describe all the deep and complex and intricate feelings on you and your wife and swinging and after the couselor has listened to you talk for an hour he/she is going to say, "let me see if I got this straight, you want to have sex with other women and want your wife to go with you?????"

Then while your wife is sitting there beside you the counselor will bash you up one side and down the other on how destructive adultry is to marriage and how you need to recous your energies into intimacy and monogomy. That will really change your wife's mind.

[Mr. Truelove]

Originally Posted by iapr

Then while your wife is sitting there beside you the counselor will bash you up one side and down the other on how destructive adultry is to marriage and how you need to recous your energies into intimacy and monogomy. That will really change your wife's mind.

I've talked to a marriage counselor before and they never bashed me. In fact, many of the things he spoke of only strengthened our marriage to the point where it allowed us to be able to swing.

And frankly, if it isn't something his wife wants, then the councelor helping him redirect his energies on monogamy might be a good thing. After all respecting your wife's wishes will go a long way to making her more comfortable.

The councelor may or may not bash the swinging lifestyle, but as long as you take those comments with a grain of salt, and truly listen to the foundation building principles of communication and respect that he'll teach, then I think the "bashing" he gives the lifestyle won't matter.

People seek help when buying cars, houses, managing their finances...but so many people are reluctant to find help for relationships....

Mr. Truelove