Wife Does not Enjoy, Will she change her mind?

[TNT]

Originally Posted by VegasLee

No matter where anyone lives, the wife should not be going along just to make the husband happy.

I totally agree with you 100% on that.

It's just that a lot of times we forget that those things we take for granted here are considered so wrong in other societies...there are places in the world where a woman would be put to death because she had sex with a man that was not her husband, regardless of the fact that it was her husband who wanted/encouraged her to do so.


Teresa

[LOL_OMG]

Paki, first of all I think it's good you came to this board for advice. That in itself does show your concern. There is a bit of a cultural difference as far as what role the male and female play in our countries. That being said, here is my advice.

Give your wife the power to decide what she wants and who she wants to do it with. If she is making the decisions, she may be more comfortable with what's going on. If she never wants to do anything, then she has the power to make that choice.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by TNT

I They are in a totally different part of the world where their culture is totally different from ours. The women do not have the freedom of thought that we here have and open sexual discussions...

Teresa, I agree with you that this MAY BE an important factor to have in mind here, but while in one hand this have to do with Pakidesires honesty in the way he's reading the situation for his wife, in the other it's something that affect both of them to "equalize" the situation.

First of all, I don't know Pakistani culture, I do know Muslims from several part of the world and some occidental women who were actually living inmersed in the Muslim culture in these places, whose oppinion about these issues changed after that.

At least in these places, even when it is true that culture impose more strict rules of behavior, these rules works for both genders as well, and grants members of both genders with rights and obligations that somehow equalize them all. Of course, this "equalization" isn't such when being seen under our eyes: we're also "wired" and limited to think in certain ways as a result of our own culture. There's no way to validate or invalidate other cultures uses and customs, unless you believe your culture is "better" than these ones, and from our culture we did that for centuries, in fact, if lou look trough European history (we inherit our culture from them), you'd see we're wired to do so (as some of them perceive their culture to be "better" than others).

Since both of them share the same culture here, both of them are accordingly "wired": I cannot make such an statament about "freedom of thinking" regarding to their culture (I don't know enough, nor dare to make such a comment regarding something I dont know enough), but let suppose it is true. If females have such a submisive position where they're not free to think, then males are used to think in behalf of females and impose their will over females.

Assumint this submisive position were "victimizing" Pakidesires wife, then this would turn Pakidesires in the "abuser", but not because of lack of honesty nor good will, instead because both ot them would be culturally wired this way.

In such an scenario, Pakidesires desires to "please her wife" would involve this "right" he culturally already have to think in behalf of her wife, as much as she "submit" herself to his will, and also it is not too likely for her to leave him because of challenging this "right" he have to think in her behalf, so our supposition that she may leave him wouldn't fit, nor become a threat for him albe to make him change his mind.

This scenario would fit some of Palidesires's expressions, moreover those so ill seen by us, where we say he's "confusing" his own desires with hers.

Thus, supposing you're right here, you'd be adding an argument toward those who adviced him against going on, as much as an argument that deprive us from ANY chance to provide advice on the grounds of the lack of enough knowledge about their culture, whatever such an advice could be.

Of course, we must be carefull here and because of this, but we have what we have, we're wired our own way, and it was Pakidesires the one who came here asking for advice from people having a different culture, and even if it were true that he came here because we were "more opend minded". The only advice we can provide here is the one fitting our culture: if he were coming here because we're more "open minded", then he'd have to deal with the pros and the cons he'll face from this.

Being judgamental with his culture by trying to do AS IF we were able to have an in deepth and enlighted understanding of it entitling us to provide him solutions fitting to his culture or that would ideally lead to cultural changes wouldn't work here, moreover it risks to be even dangerous for them both to follow such an advice, sice they will still have to deal with the same culture on a daily basis.

So, it's true, they both have their mind locked in a cultural jail... as much as we have our mind locked in a different cultural jail. We speak from one jail to another, we're not able to have a living experience of each other jail, but listen to the descriptions we do about our jails. The advice we can provide is valid only in our jails, and it is the other the one who have to figure out if such an advice is usefull his/her own jail, we're not entitled to evaluate this since it is forbidden for us to ever be in such a jail (even if we were there in a visit).

So, I believe it is right to stick to our very personal way to see the problem and our original advice.

[SrKnight]

I may be way off track here, and forgive me if I am. Pakidesires, it seems to me that what you are saying, paraphrased, is that she does seem to enjoy most of the soft swing type play leading up to actual sex but very little of what follows. My advise to you would be to remember that enjoying the swinging lifestyle as a couple means ALWAYS socialize (play etc...) up to but not beyond the comfort level of the LEAST comfortable of the two of you. If she enjoys foreplay, cuddling, kissing, flirting with others then that is as far as she should go at that time. The single over-riding rule that my wife and I have followed throughout our 12 years in the lifestyle has always been;

If anyone involved would be hurt, emotionally, physically, mentally (and that includes enjoying what they are experiencing) then it is not allowed.

For the first 3 years we were participating in the lifestyle she was uncomfortable with the idea of me playing with another woman. Therefore, I didn't. If you take your time, be patient and always operate up to but not beyond her comfort level the lifestyle can be a remarkable experience for both of you. Have patience and allow her to find out at her own speed what pleasure is all about.

I sincerely hope I'm not off track here and I certainly wish you both good luck.

[Happypair]

I'm (male half of the couple) fairly new both to the lifestyle and this board, so correct me If i'm out of place...
It seems to me the purpose of this forum, and my duty should I undertake to speak as a lifestyler, is to provide accurate, unbiased information as to the benefits (and dangers) of swinging.
It should NOT be the purpose of this board, or anyone who purports to speak for the lifestyle, to "talk someone into" swinging when they are clearly not ready.
Vegas Lee is so, so right. This thread should have ended with his initial response.
Yes, swinging is a great lifestyle for those of us who "get it", who understand it's about genuinely free choice, about equality, about sharing and perhaps most important, about respect. But every day, there are two or three new posts, from people who don't get it, asking for help in getting their reluctant partners onside. And because we're so eager to "sell" swinging, we say, "Just bring her to the board, we'll show her the way."
Why? She is saying No.
She is being asked to perform sexual acts against her will. There is a word for that. Rape!
The vast majority of people who write these "help me convince my spouse" posts are not swingers in any way, shape or form. They are abusers.
And every time we tell people to bring their reluctant SOs to the board so we can convert them, we become participants in a gang-bang.

[fun4Ds]

this is getting interesting isint it pakidesires said on his last posts that he is not forceing his wife to do this and they were going to look at this board together this weekend.that is what we do (look at this board together) their are some language and cultural barriers here. it is good that we can come together with diffrent views. lets give them a chance to come back. if mrs.pakidesires sees some of this i think she will get the point that she has the choice that each person has a right to say NO.im not the most intelegent person but i would be the first to tell them to STOP if some one is being hurt by the swinging lifestyle. i hope they get a chance to come back.

[TNT]

sereneiders,

I do see your point. It is extremely hard to give advice to someone whose lives are so totally different from what we are used to. All we can do is give it from our own experiences, feelings and thought. However, I still think it's important to try and take into consideration what the other is dealing with.

As I did state, I didn't feel I had any constructive advice for pakidesire but...the advice I did give was pretty much the advice I give anyone who comes here looking for ways to get their wife involved in swinging.

I see pakidesire as a progressive thinking man who wants his wife to enjoy swinging, not only for his pleasure but mainly for her's. To me he's like the husbands here who enjoy swinging but their wife's pleasure and enjoyment of it supercedes his own.

I could be totally wrong, but that is the way I see it.

Teresa

[TNT]

Originally Posted by Happypair

And every time we tell people to bring their reluctant SOs to the board so we can convert them, we become participants in a gang-bang.

Ummm, no I don't believe that is true. No one here ever tries to convert anyone. If you will read over the board you will find that it's said over and over again...Swinging is not for everyone.

When we tell people to bring their SO here, it's so that their SO can make an informed decision. This board is full of the good, the bad and the ugly of swinging. Anyone who reads over the 1000s of post here will get a very well rounded view of what they might be considering getting involved in.


Teresa

[BradAndJanet]

pakidesires, if, as you say, your wife is new to sexual activity and pleasure, I can only suggest that you give her time to enjoy what the two of you do together before you even think about introducing others into your bedroom.

As many women here can testify, they weren't comfortable with the idea of swinging until they were over the age of 35 and had been married for many years.

You will have to be very patient, I think.

-B

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by Happypair

I'm (male half of the couple) fairly new both to the lifestyle and this board, so correct me If i'm out of place...
It seems to me the purpose of this forum, and my duty should I undertake to speak as a lifestyler, is to provide accurate, unbiased information as to the benefits (and dangers) of swinging.
It should NOT be the purpose of this board, or anyone who purports to speak for the lifestyle, to "talk someone into" swinging when they are clearly not ready.
Vegas Lee is so, so right. This thread should have ended with his initial response.
Yes, swinging is a great lifestyle for those of us who "get it", who understand it's about genuinely free choice, about equality, about sharing and perhaps most important, about respect. But every day, there are two or three new posts, from people who don't get it, asking for help in getting their reluctant partners onside. And because we're so eager to "sell" swinging, we say, "Just bring her to the board, we'll show her the way."
Why? She is saying No.
She is being asked to perform sexual acts against her will. There is a word for that. Rape!
The vast majority of people who write these "help me convince my spouse" posts are not swingers in any way, shape or form. They are abusers.
And every time we tell people to bring their reluctant SOs to the board so we can convert them, we become participants in a gang-bang.

Ewwww... I believe it is true what you said in your first pharagrap... you're new to this board.

The purpose isn't to "sell" anything to anyone here. And if there is something being sold, it's everyone's oppinion and mindset, i.e., you get to read a thread, you reach to a degree of (miss)understanding of the post(s), you ask questions/give your very personal oppinion based on your understandig, someone else does the same, read the posts (including yours), (miss)understand the discussion, add more questions and provide his/her personal oppinion. That's the meaning of a forum: we don't understand things the same way, our understading is biased by our own experiences, some may put the accent in certain aspects of a discussion that was meaningless for the previous posters, and we all contribute with our best effort in the discussion.

There are for sure who honestly believe swinging is the soluttion for all the world's problem, and sells that, as much as others who faced problems and trend to take a conservative and skeptic approach, and a range of oppinions in the middle way... and all of them deserves to be heard and can provide some insight to the problem, and not only for the original poster one, also for others who come later on an may identify with the original poster or what have been said.

I may agree that getting your wife drunk to push her into swinging is a rape. But if you read around, you'd find out oppinions from women who were reluctanct at first, that later on became swingers succesfully just because of her husband insistence.

When we ask someone to bring the SO here, it isn't to "help convince", instead because we need to tell appart what leads to such a reluctancy, because it may come for being prejudgamental or from fears that THE RELUCTANCT one, by him/herself MAY overcome by reading other posts in the forum that he/she can feel identified with and get an insight about the subject, even when that leads him/her to say DEFINATELY NO.

In my case, if you read my posts, I don't make any oppinion about the ones the posters are talking about, like gessing their motivations and talking given these motivations for granted. The only I am facing are the subjective perception from the poster about a problem (and even an imaginary situation), so I only can talk about the poster and the post words, since I am SURE the poster CANNOT give us an OBJETIVE description of what's going on. To be able to talk about the problem you have to listen both bells. To be respectfull with the people referred in these words, you have to invite them ALL to provide their own viewing about the same things.

[pakidesires]

Sorry for being late in my reply.

I read all the replies with great interest and instead of replying each post separately I will try to summarize many points i gathered from all the posts.

1. We have married for 10+ years already and enjoy a very friendly and open relationships with each other. As I mentioned we can talk openly on just any topic. I have my hots on with one of her close relatives and I had no problems telling her the same. This is just to tell you people that we can share and talk our very internal thoughts very easily.

2. Why I think she will enjoy it laters? It will take her some time to absorb all this something very new and strange to her. I remember, when I first introduced her the idea, she refused to accept that there would be a single male on earth who would think the same for her wife. Her initial concern was that later in our life I will regret it and may taunt her as well, but as time passed by she was ready to give it a try but mentioned specifically that she was doing it only for my pleasure. This whole process comprises of more then a year.

3. I do agree that may be the third person, a married guy, is a turn of for her. Some1 wrote that I should have given her choice in this regards. I wish I could but here in this world we dont have much choices in this regards. Finding such couples is almost impossible here. I came accross many who claimed to be in same lifestyle but most of them turned out the be fake ones.

4. I let her read this posts, but at that time there were not as many replies as now. She agreed to that post in which it was written that she was initially stressed and confused. And she said that "If I let her decide she will stop doing it". I am sure many people will again take me wrong and will say that I should stop immediately and she is not into this life style at all, but my point of view, may be wrong, is that she needs some time to accept this idea. There is a difference between our first swinging session than the last one. To develop the taste of black coffee, you need to have it for sometime but once you start liking it u always prefer that.

I once again say that eventually my point of view might be proved wrong but to me it is a bit early to say that. Like many other sex activities between us (me and she) she took some time to actually enjoy and taking pleasure out of it. This new lifestyle is the same but much bigger thing to swallow for her. She is not enjoying it is becuase mental bariers she has. Which once crossed she will start liking it.

In the end, to all who wrote that I must stop it or I will loose her, I will indeed stop if I think that I have tried enough and this lifestyle is not for her. Simply becuase if she is not enjoying i wont as well. At this point of time, i have a hope that she will. It all will end automatically if that hope is no more there.

I may be sounding like a stuborn child, but I am quite sure that she will be on the right track soon and if not that the end of the road.

You may ask that whats the point of my original post if i was so sure about the whole thing, I actually wanted to know that if there is anyone else who experienced the same, specially any lady out there who has gone thru all this and then later on start taking pleasure instead of initial deniel. if yes, it would be really great to know what was her mind and what helped her crossing the initial barier and stressing state.

[fun4Ds]

thank you for coming back pakidisers. you would have looked dishonest had you not returned. here is all i can say. yes my wife was against this lifestyle when i first spoke of it. we did not go as far as you and then ask for information. when she said she would not enjoy this. I STOPED. i told my wife that was enough for me. i needed to tell her my feelings but we did not have to act on my desires. after 2 yrs she brought it back into our relationship. she could only enjoy this if she could be in control. it took 2 years of no coffee for her to enjoy black coffee. you can hear your wife but you can not understand your wife. it must be your wifes decision for her to enjoy this.it is the only way.

[pakidesires]

I 100% agree with you fun4Ds. I would love to hear from your wife, what actually went thru her mind when she did not enjoy and then after 2 years what charmed her back to this. This is actually i want to know. To read the mind of a women who has gone thru these stages of deniel and then pleasure.

[pakidesires]

Originally Posted by sereneiders

...

I may agree that getting your wife drunk to push her into swinging is a rape. But if you read around, you'd find out oppinions from women who were reluctanct at first, that later on became swingers succesfully just because of her husband insistence.

I want those women's to share their thoughts, if possible.

[fun4Ds]

i pertain to the post here with Mrs.funs advice and approval. she pertains to the people we play with. if she wishes to enlitein you ....uhhh... be carefull she can rip your sole and go to your mother.