My Wife Says Never!

[MrClassic]

I'm new to the forum and looking for a little advice. I've read a lot of the threads and FAQs and have determined in your world I am about as normal as the next guy. I'm over 40, married 24 years to my high school sweetheart. For many years I thought I was her first as that is what she told me (more later). At about year 7 of our marriage I expressed having fantasies about three-somes both MFM and FFM (although I was perverted at early times to desires those things). I went so far as fantasizing about ordering a pizza and having her give the guy a tip, but not money. I went as far as asking her to try it for real and she flipped enough that she went to a therapist for help. She thought I was a real mental case and our marriage was doomed. I of course was mad because she got so mad. But we got over it and its only brought up by her when she needs to remind me how I mentally abused her. After maturing and reading more about swinging and sharing I realized I moved too fast and didn't get her consent before really wanting to try it. (We never actually tried it, I just asked her to do it for real).

She was raised to be a "good girl" by her mom. (Her little sister was not and has a competely different lifestyle and has an interracial marriage. I thinks its odd how two sisters could grow up so different). I have to admit I have corrupted her to at least be a little daring. More so when we were just married we did some daring things. Sex on the beach, BJ in an elevator etc. Over the last dozen years the fantasies have increased in the bedroom. At least talking about them. We'll watch porn in the bedroom, but its always for me, not for her, but man does she get wet! For a few years she let me talk about almost anything and I was able to communicate my fantasis about 3-somes and more. At first she said she had no fantasies but then I pushed her a little and she admitted she thought about an accasional fling with a guy. She even admitted that "Bob", a guy I worked with was hot. We talked during sex about getting it on with Bob for several years. She really hates the girl-on-girl in the movies so I don't go there very often.

Over the last year or so I've had trouble maintaining an erection without the extra talk. I try to think of sweet things with her, but go limp. All I need to do is think about her and I going wild with another person and I'm back in action. She knows it and will talk the talk without me asking to get me to orgasim. Despite having sex 5-7 times per month with her, I still masterbate more than I think I should and of course thinking about all kinds of kinky sex with and without her.

We've owned our own business for the last 5 years and the stress is tough. We started seeing a therapist last month more for a relationship tune-up than anything. I wanted my wife to stop working with me so much since we have our share of communication problems and we now have an assistant to do many of her things in the office who is well qulified but bored.

Last week in the therapy session we started talking about sex. I guess that's a must-do on their check list. I guess it was good becuase she got to vent a little that I was not normal. I admited to the good Doctor that I did indeed have thoughts about seeing my wife with another man. We ran out of time and we'll start there again this week.

One thing we did discuss was her virginity. She was telling the doctor she was never with another man and could never "cheat" on me, even if I asked her to do it in front of me. I took a chance on a suspician I've had only for a few months. I found out that another man took my wife's cherry (broke her hymen) during last week's session. I knew him and he was a guy she dated before me and I knew she was giving him BJs and all. It was something we talked about during sex. She would descibe to me the times she blew him and how she swollowed etc. It was fun and she didn't seem to mind either. Well she said he was not her first because as soon as he broke her hymen she made him stop and they never finished. So in her mind she didn't have sex since his penis only knocked on the door and didn't go all the way in. I told her she was wrong and she said I have ruined her most cherried thing in saving her virginity for me.

One other thing she did while we were dating that ties into this...She went to the beach with her friend and got a little drunk and gave a total stranger a BJ on the beach. We talk about that during sex too.

So I look at all these things and say that we are happily married, despite the bumps in the road. However I still have the desire to have more than monogomous sex and it consumes too much of my time (for example, writing this book at 5am because I can't sleep).

I know that more is going to come in the therapy sessions. I told her yesterday that despite the fact that I think another man did take her cherry, I still think of me as her only one. Maybe to the point of obsession. I told her that if she ever cheated on me, even a little, the spell would be broken. But in the same conversation I told her I still desire to have a 3-some and more. She said it will never happen. She things its a moral sin to have sex with someone else when married, even if I was there watching. She can't wait for the good doctor to fix me.

Its really sad to think that if we ever got divorviced for what-ever reason she would more than likely sleep around, one at a time, and eventually find another Mr. Right. So she's willing to say no to me during our marriage, but it would be OK to have sex with another man if we were not married. I think that's messed up thinking, but that's why I'm here typing. Our marriage is good but not great. I think the differences in our sexual morals is weighing heavily on me and I don't know if it would lead to divorce or not. If it did it would be the saddest thing to happen. Should I just bury the desires and try to live a "normal" life?

I realize asking this board for advice is like asking pamala anderson if sex is fun, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask. Sorry for the long book this morning. Thanks for your help!

[Chicup]

Well hell of a story, but as it pertains to swinging, the answer is the same for anyone.

If your marriage is NOT at 100%, swinging will only fuck things up.

I've never heard anyone say 'well we were having problems in our marriage but we started swinging and everything is now wonderful!'. What I do hear is 'We had an awsome sex life and marriage and swinging made it even better!' or 'We were having problems and tried swinging but things didn't work out and we got divorced.'

Maybe your wife will never be into it but unless your marriage is very strong it will be a mistake to try.

[intuition897]

That's a hell of a problem you've got there, MrClassic. Sounds to me like you've got a tough road ahead. If she's that wound up in her moral beliefs, she likely also believes that questioning those very beliefs is, itself, a moral sin. Therein lies the problem.

If you ask me, she's got some pretty skewed ideas about what sex is and is not. Vaginal sex = 'real' sex (unless the penis only goes 1/2 way in :rollseyes ), but oral sex doesn't count? Why? Because you can't get pregnant?? It may be unlikely, but it is possible to contract an STD via oral sex with an infected partner if she has broken mucosal tissue in her mouth. Does she know this? What about anal sex? Does it count? It doesn't get you pregnant... What difference does the body cavity make, really?

Whether or not either of you chooses to swing (which I would NOT recommend anytime in the near future), clinging to this idea that true happiness can only be found through sexual "purity" (ie: monogamy) is going to bring nothing but a whole lot of feelings of inadequacy and perhaps feelings of unfairness. Actively choosing monogamy of one's free will is one thing - and many people prefer the simplicity of just that, living long, full, happy lives with only one another - but it's quite another to have monogamy dictated to one by social pressure or the traditions of one's religion. It leaves one feeling trapped and without choice. But there is a choice. That's maybe the most astonishing thing: there IS no trap but what you set for yourself.

It will be VERY interesting to see what your therapist has to say next week. Funny that time ran out just as you mentioned it. <EG> LOL My guess is that you will be outnumbered. It pisses me off to no end that 'reponsible' therapists and other mental health professionals would keep trying to cram these unruly aspects of ourselves back into the neat and tidy little boxes that make us such neat and tidy building blocks of society. Well, you know what? Some of us don't fit in those damn cramped little boxes, and life is too short to live by someone else's rules. God gave me a pretty good brain, and by God I'm gonna use it!

*sigh* Now that I've vented...
Pushing your wife will only be counterproductive. As will arguing if all you're doing is drawing her arguments out in the open just to shoot them down and leave her defenseless. That's the same as pressuring her. She won't like it at all. What you need to do is spend a little quiet time on your own and think things through. What is the most important thing to you? Are you willing to give up on this idea if it means your marriage? Because that's what it may come down to. Why do you want to do this? Is it for you or for her? Exactly why do you feel that this is okay to do? Why is it not wrong? You'll really need to be articulate about your feelings here. Do you feel that she is right that you are "mentally abusing" her? Why or why not? I'm just saying that the whole situation requires some deep thought on your part, and on hers too. But initially, you'll have to take the lead on this! Write your thoughts down as though you're writing to Dear Abby. Tell your wife that you want to set aside some uninterrupted time to discuss your finding with her and then do it. She needs to know why you're asking her to do this. She needs to know how you really feel about her and how devoted you are to making her life more complete. There is no other way to do this than by baring the most vulnerable depths of your heart and soul. This part isn't about getting sex with other people, or seeing her with others. This isn't about sex at all. This is about intimacy.

I hope you are able to discuss these things with your wife. Perhaps suggest that she reads your post here and invite her to explore the board on her own. Her questions will be answered thoughtfully and thoroughly, and you can assure her that no one is here to pressure her to do it. Quite the opposite in fact. But the issues of morality, ethics and religion have been addressed to no end here, so she will find a huge variety of opinions on the matter. Hope this helps some.

BTW, maybe you should suggest that the Good Doc has a look at our little board. He might be surprised.

[MrClassic]

Thanks intuition897 & Chicup, I appreciate the good advice. I see your point that I am pushing her by trying to explain and justify my thinking. And I see that we are not 100% and probably never will be 100% so these crazy ideas will probably never happen. I'm sure the good doctor will advise with her that it would ruin our lives to do anything abby-normal. I do need to think about what I really want and it comes down to holding in my true desires to save the "normal" marriage or jumping ship to search for something I may never find.

Thanks again for the help!

[lovedoctor]

Sounds like unless your woman has a major "ah ha" moment, it's just not going to happen within the realm of your current relationship. You have playfully talked about it for eons and she has not moved one iota in her attitude to what is really going to happen.

I will be interested to hear what the therapist's bent on the subject will be. Keep us updated with how things are going!

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by MrClassic

...And I see that we are not 100% and probably never will be 100% so these crazy ideas will probably never happen.

Keep thinking like that, and you'll be 100% right! Probbably never happen? Ok, maybe that's true. But there's no reason why your relationship can't improve. I think if you approach your wife with this goal in mind, rather than either of you getting into someone else's pants, you'll find she'll be much more receptive.

Originally Posted by MrClassic

...I'm sure the good doctor will advise with her that it would ruin our lives to do anything abby-normal.

I sure wouldn't bet the farm on him doing anything else. :rollseyes

Originally Posted by MrClassic

...I do need to think about what I really want and it comes down to holding in my true desires to save the "normal" marriage or jumping ship to search for something I may never find.

Thanks again for the help!

It's really too bad that things must be carried to such extremes either way, where either you feel unfulfilled and restrained or she feels degraded and abused. Does it really have to be that way? Is there any way the two of you can change your way of thinking so that you can both be happy?

[MrClassic]

Here's my last update and thanks to those who commented.

We had our session today and it did not go well but I have to admit the good doctor was not as bad as I expected. He commented several times that my wife's mother did "too" good of a job preaching the values of being a good girl. This was based on observations of my wifes reactions to certain things.

I agreed to take the whole 3-somes, swingers etc off the table at the good doctor request. He said he wasn't passing judgment, he knew (like you all did) that my wife is just not the type of person to ever do it and it was causing her stress.

Then through further discussion it was determined my wife had "fear" because of my desire to go beyond normal sex. Even though she would pretend or talk about my fantisies during sex for my gratification, it turns out she's been afraid of going out in public because I would force her to have sex with another man while we were out. For example, she does not want to go to her 25th high school reunion for fear she would have a few too many drinks and I would force her to have sex with one of her friends or class mates. I know for a fact I ever threatened her to get my way, but the good doctor says that perception is everything. If she thinks I'm going to do this at any cost than her fear is valid. So while I've been asking for it consistently for 14 years and never got even close to it, she's been in fear that I would force her to do it anyways.

I don't know what to do. I apologized to her in front of the doctor, again in the car and now I feel like a real ass. But I'm also mad that she would have that level of fear and never say anything and still continue to act out the fantasy in the bedroom. I don't know if the marriage is worth salvaging at this point.

best of luck to everyone...I'm outa here.

[intuition897]

Don't know if you'll be back MrClassic, but thought I'd respond (again) anyhow.

Glad to hear that your doctor isn't too big a an ass about this stuff. I guess he's maybe just suggesting to drop the issue more for the sake of simplicity than anything else.

I really understand you frustration. And I can understand your wife's frustration too. It sounds like you both had a bit of a breakthrough there, when you foudn out that she had been pretending for so long and keeping her fears to herself. It's just my personal opinion of course, but I feel that your wife was unfair to you. How can she expect honesty and fairness from you if she's not willing to be honest and fair herself? You can't withold such important feelings and knowledge from your partner and then hold his actions against him when his actions would clearly have benefitted by having shared them. She cannot hold this against you, claiming mental abuse.

I sure hope that the initial pain this discovery has caused doesn't deter either of you from pursuing a stronger relationship. It's been warned here before that developping a good relationship is not a painless process. Obviously, right? So you can both either let the pain beat you, and allow it to corrode what's left of your feelings for one another, or you can re-evaluate your marriage in spite of these hurts, forgive one another and re-make your promises to not be dishonest, spiteful or hurtful toward one another again. In other words, I guess, learn from past mistakes. Take it to heart, and consciously fulfill that promise every day. If there's real love there, don't let this win over it.

[DBL D]

You have it right, Mr. Classic. This is classic.

Fem D and I have been to a therapist years ago and I never felt that we got anything out of it except a reminder of the tools we can use for communication. A little too much venting and trying to get the pro on one of our sides was really un-nerving. (This had nothing to do with swinging issues.)

Fem D went through the same basic reactions that you have mentioned when swinging was brought up though. I think the main things that she was afraid of was that I would leave her and wasn't satisfied with her. When I was able to find out that she also had fantasies the whole thing started to get better toward the idea of actually sharing ourselves. I will also admit that I was very sexually frustrated even though our sex lives were never so fun and active. That confused her even more. I also went through the "I must not be normal" thing.

I have always felt that we had a great marriage. We've been together for 26 years now and have been able to work out everything that has ever been a problem. You really need to slow down and stop pushing her to talk about things during sex. It seems to bother her and she is doing it for you. Swinging is about seeing your SO have fun, but of their own volition.

As far as getting a divorce so you can pursue your dream, that is a red flag and I would recommend like the others that you not swing or talk much about it till you work out these other issues. Learn to separate sex and love. Learn to be understanding. Ask for patience from each other and you might just show her this board when the time is right.

Good luck to ya.

Male D

[MrClassic]

My wife and I talked last night...it didn't start out well. I was more sad then I can remember after our session since I found out my wife was afraid to go places with me. I told her I thought it was time for us to separate. More so for me because I felt betrayed by her and the spell of love was broken for me. I'm not a cryer, but I cried harder than I can ever remember telling her how hard it was to seperate with my best friend but I thought it was better for both of us. If all the things she says in the sessions are true, the marriage is worthless to me.

We ended up talking until after 2am. It was difficult but we did make some progress and I'm not separating. After a lot of discussion I was able to determine that she is very insecure about our marriage. When I look at a babe walking down the street she assumes I'm ready to leave her for that stranger. When I talk about 3-somes and swapping she believes I gave her an ultimatum to do it or I WILL divorce her. I asked her when I said that and she said I never said the words, she just assumed since it was on my mind so often it was do or die for me. We confirmed that I never said that and it wasn't true, but I think she'll need to hear if from the good doctor before she believes me.

I tried to explain to her why the good doctor said her mother did too good of a job on her. She budged a little on the fact that she may be a little bit of a prude for no good reason. I think I showed her how protecting the prudish ideals seemed more important to her than saving the marriage. After all, if she really believes I would divorce her if she doesn't do a 3-some, why the hell isn't she out scheduling a 3-some to save the marriage? It can't be further from the truth, I am not looking to divorce her for lack of 3-somes but I thought it was a valid question.

She also believe you all don't exist. There's no way there's a large group of people out there who have successfully swapped partners and survived to talk about it. And if you are saying positive things it must have happened once and very bad things are coming your way soon. Or its a conspiracy theory and there's some pervert in NJ typing all your responses. There's just no way swapping and 3-somes can work.


So I agreed to go to bed rather than leave and we snuggled and fell asleep. Pretty dead tired at that point. The weirdest thing happened sometime during the night. I woke up with a few fingers in a sloppy wet pussy. Things progressed rapidly and we had some awesome sex. She didn't orgasm but it was still a great session. We both believe its a good sign.

So we're at the point where she has assumed some responsibility to make it work better too. Rather than just me stopping the talk about 3-somes etc., she is also going to try to come out of her shell a little. The good doctor is on vacation and we're not scheduled to go back for two weeks. She is also going to talk to her best friend about this and get her opinion. Her best friend is, I believe, more open when it comes to sex. I believe my wife will realize I am a little more normal and "safe" than she believes.

Sorry again for the long book... its good therapy for me.

Thanks!!

[Sweet_Candy]

My advice...work on what you have. Sounds like you two need to perfect your communication skills with each other. This in itself can be a painful but rewarding process...but it sounds like your both willing. There will be many breakthroughs and more pitfalls to overcome. If you never swing so be it. Some things are best left as fantasy. The important issue is the two of you!

[jstlkng]

I agree with you male d that "swinging is about seeing your SO have fun, but of their own volition." I have found that my wife's attitude is so similar to the attitudes of other women as expressed by many men on this site and others as well.

I would cherish seeing (being in her presence at the time) or not seeing (giving her my blessing to enjoy others without my presence) my wife enjoy her sexuality with others, whether I was "involved" or not. She thinks I am "sick" because I feel this way. She "could never consent" to me having sex with someone else. Yet like others when she watches this happen in the movies, it really does enhance her libido. Strange, isn't it?

I believe the reason that swinging is so honest is because true swingers really do have their partners best interest in mind and it starts, not with sex, but with all the other things that make a marriage/partnership great. Its just too sad that some in a marriage are willing to be so giving and others are so self-centered as to deny their spouse's fulfillment, emotionally or sexually. Without a doubt there are many couples who visit this site who have such one-sided marriages.

For those of you who have seen thearapists about your one-sided marriages you will probably agree with me that you have never met one who advised a spouse to open their mind and heart and be more accepting of their spouse. It has been my experience that the advice is always to close your mind and heart, apologize for your freaky ideas and sacrifice your desires for the other. Thearapy can be so damn negative.

jstlkng

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by MrClassic

She also believe you all don't exist. There's no way there's a large group of people out there who have successfully swapped partners and survived to talk about it. And if you are saying positive things it must have happened once and very bad things are coming your way soon. Or its a conspiracy theory and there's some pervert in NJ typing all your responses. There's just no way swapping and 3-somes can work.

Oh, we exist alright! If she really doesn't believe it, let her introduce herself to us perverts. Let her see for herself. You won't meet a nicer bunch of people. Well I think we're pretty nice, anyway. But she's right, that if you wanted to find those people out there who are into it for the wrong reasons or those for whom swinging just wasn't a good fit, you'll find them! They are out there. Probably in much greater number than those who have found success. There are so many people here that I can think of right off the top of my head who HAVE found success, though, that it just can't be denied that it can and does work. We've been at it for about 3 years now, 5 altogether (when we first became interested). Other couples have been at it longer than that! Divorces still happen, sure, but not because of the swinging. Usually it's because someone deliberately broke the rules (ie: went behind his/her spouse's back and cheated with someone else) or some other non-swinging-related conflict. No different than in the 'vanilla' world.

Perhaps your wife has some preconceived ideas about who and what swingers actually are. If that's the case, she would do well to toss out what she thinks she knows about it, and investigate it for herself. If it does not stand on its own merit, then there's her answer. We'd love to get to know her a bit better, too. Please let her know that we would all enjoy hearing her side of things. She won't be flamed, judged or pressured by any of us.

Glad to hear that you've both been making some progress. I know things are moving as painfully as a rusty hinge right now, but the more of yourselves that you pour into your marriage, the more you will get back. It's a beautiful thing. Once you've both gotten used to having such tender parts of yourselves exposed to one another, you'll start to wonder how you ever lived without the pure simplicity of the arrangement. For a while, though, it will feel a bit unnatural. One couldn't expect anything different; it's sort of like living in a cave all your life, seeing things in black and white, and then trying to adjust your vision to seeing things in colour, in the bright light of the noon sun. It's a lot to take in. But once you've adjusted, you take one backward glance at the cave you used to call home, and wonder why you spent so many years down there in the dark.

Wishing you both much happiness.