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pakidesires

Wife Does not Enjoy, Will she change her mind?

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Hello everyone,

 

I am not sure we will be counted as new swingers or not but after some sessions I still have many basic questions so I count ourselves as NEW.

 

Scenario:

I love to see her enjoying, whether it is her solo or with another male. Watching her enjoying sex is a great turn on for me, as so come the idea of swinging.

 

She got agreed for this but made it clear that she is it only for my pleasure. We have done MFM 4/5 times now, mostly oral. After each session, she always mentioned that other then very very short periods of time she did not enjoy it at all. But she always agreed to do it for my pleasure, but as i said my actual pleasure and fantasy is to see her enjoying. I continued doing it in a hope that sooner she will overcome her tension and will get involved and eventually will enjoy it.

 

She never allowed other male for full intercourse, but in our last session we achieved that as well with a help of a condom. She was very much afraid that other male will cum in her, and condom gave her confidence i guess to let him in even for longer period as well. (we were not expecting that she will let it in, so that was a great surprise for us).

 

But her post-sex session comments are still the same, that either she does not enjoy at all of just very short period of times and only when I was involved as well.

 

I used to speak to her a lot about the topic making her mentaly relax are prepared, which I would say working becuase in our last session she was not as tense as was in the first one.

 

After, our last session, when she let him in, we were expecting that she will deny any further sessions only becuase insertion was never discussed before and we thought that she at that time let it happen just for me but will not repeat it. But, aftermath is she is quite normal and ready to do the next session as well, which means mentally she is okay with full insertion as well, but with a comment that she does not enjoy and doing it for my pleasure only.

 

My Questions:

1. If we continue doing with her, do you think she will adopt it and will start enjoying it as well.

2. Should I continue doing it, even if she does not enjoy it in future as well?

3. Is there anyway to make her enjoy the sessions.

 

We dont just start sex session by the way, we sit talk play (all this she enjoys she mentioned) and then gradually move towards sex sessions and according to her she enjoys very much everything prior to sex session which involves soft sex games as well.

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I would not recommend continuing. It sounds like your wife does not enjoy this and is very uncomfortable doing it.

 

You may not think you are pressuring you into this (and you may not be), but it seems to me that she FEELS pressured into this. She's doing it for your pleasure, not for her own. This is not healthy. You need to stop and talk things over. If she doens't want to continue, then don't.

 

~SS

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I would not recommend continuing. It sounds like your wife does not enjoy this and is very uncomfortable doing it.

 

You may not think you are pressuring you into this (and you may not be), but it seems to me that she FEELS pressured into this. She's doing it for your pleasure, not for her own. This is not healthy. You need to stop and talk things over. If she doens't want to continue, then don't.

 

~SS

Dito that. Y'all need to stop.

 

-B

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Hello everyone,

 

My Questions:

1. If we continue doing with her, do you think she will adopt it and will start enjoying it as well.

2. Should I continue doing it, even if she does not enjoy it in future as well?

3. Is there anyway to make her enjoy the sessions.

 

 

 

1. No. she has given it a fair shot and does not want to do this.

 

2. If you do, chances are you will end up losing your wife.

 

3. You can not "make" anyone enjoy something. Either they do or they don't. Your wife has been very honest with you and told you she does not enjoy doing this. If she keeps doing it for you someday she is going to do for herself and out the door she will go.

 

Time to call it quits on the playing and repair your relationship if you want to keep your wife.

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:rolleyes: Just to put in may two cents, it sounds like me but my husband would not let us go into swinging until I had reach a point thought talking and we also done solf-swing until I was able to face the fact that sex is for pleasure and that I was worthy of pleasure,that is one outlook I had. I would tell my husband that I would do it for him because it was hard for to say or face the fact that I wanted to have sex with another male for just fun and pleasure. It take a lot of long talks and reassurance that nothing could change his love for me. I call this, the old negative out look that we women are told as girls sex is dirty, to look for pleasure I felt guilty and really afraid to let go and enjoy sex with someone else. Now I have said all of this to say she most open up with you in conservations and really talk about how she feels just talking about it and she will begin to understand what she is feeling (hopefully). I did not realize all of this at first, I just felt confused,stressed and did not know what all was bothering, it was just feelings,so this could be some of what your wife is doing. It was easlier for me to do it for my husband,than face the fact and say I wanted to swing,full swap or whatever. I wanted to have a 3som with my husband this is why we got into the lifestyle FMF. In here on this site is questions you both should answer and then compare your answers, look on this site for the information you need to try. One thing I remember it is funny now but then I would get mad and cry some, my husband would tell me "they will be no swinging or FMF unto you can look at sex as something to do for fun, and seperate sex from love!!!! This is hard for a woman to do but with love,tenderness,reading books on the lifestyle. We read this site together it took all winter just before we had our first date.(with playmates)It was another year before I was able to be comfortable to have intercourse with a playmate. We always do same room,just read on here that is the best thing to first do after you stop trying to swing. This is the best trip you and your wife will take it will make you more in love with each and really fully understanding each,it is well worth the trouble. Good Luck I know you will both do great in time. You and your wife read this let her see your post and she will really how much you want to see her really trully enjoy herself.

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I love to see her enjoying, whether it is her solo or with another male. Watching her enjoying sex is a great turn on for me, as so come the idea of swinging.

 

She got agreed for this but made it clear that she is it only for my pleasure.

 

(...)

 

But, aftermath is she is quite normal and ready to do the next session as well, which means mentally she is okay with full insertion as well, but with a comment that she does not enjoy and doing it for my pleasure only.

 

I agree with VegasLee here.

 

Moreover it seems you're doing this because this turns you on, exclusivelly, and your wife is up to do anything in order to please you. You're the only one pursuing her pleasure but for your own fulfillment, and it seems the only way you're thinking of would be by means of another guy who'd be giving her such a plasure. She pointed our she didn't got any pleasure so far, after doing what most wifes in her situation wouldn't: give it a try... and another try... and another try, so it seems she get pleasure from you and, more important, that she ONLY WANT the pleasure that you, alone, may provide her.

 

So far, it doesn't seem to me you seek for her pleasure at all, but for your own pleasure when watching her servicing other guys. If this became so obvious to me, why do you think it wouldn't be obvious for your wife, who know you better?

 

If I were your wife, after giving it a try and telling you it didn't pleased me, I would be expecting you to give up, not to keep insisting. I would be even affraid to enjoy some of this (or to tell you that I enjoyed it) because this way I would cheer you into make me do further things I don't want to. There's no way to "relax" in this scenario, where you claim you're doing something for her when in fact, you're concerned just about yourself.

 

And if she keeps trying, even after pointing out so enfatically she doesn't get pleased (in other words, that you WONT get what you want from her this way), I suspect you may be very pushy, no matter how subtle you think you are when you keep talking her into this over and over, sort of, if you don't win the arguing by KO, she may be ending up bitting the dust from being too tired to oposse to your will.

 

Watch out, man, you may lose her for good. Start looking AT HER. If it really turns you on her pleasure, PAY ATTENTION and BELIEVE IN HER WORD, it is her own body, her own soul, SHE KNOWS BETTER. If you keep doing this, she may start perceiving that you're not only too selfish, also too arrogant, to the point of turning her in a hole surrounded by meat whose purpose is provide you pleasure in any way you want, no matter how much painfull this could be for her.

 

Be carefull.

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First of all, thanks a lot for the replies. I was really eager to read others opinion on the issue, i logged in using my mobile device to read the replies last night. There were 3 replies by then only. I tried to reply from my mobile device as well but typing on that was not much easy so i quite.

 

First of all I must clear that I dont intend to continue if she never enjoys it, but I dont agree that i must fear of losing her this way. Infact, its other way around, she is doing it becuase she does not want to lose me. I have never pressurised her that i will leave if she does not participate. I must admit that i may be a bit pushy sometime but its not a hard way. I feel lucky to have such a lovely wife who can do anything for me even if she does not like it. We have kind of relationship where we can talk on any topic openly. I know all her fanticies and so does she for mine. She has a fantacy of watching a girl being gang banged, she likes to watch MFM movies, and certain scenes does arouse her as well. During our sex sessions (me with her), she manytimes fanticised about a girl enjoying more then one cock and she cums great flashing such scenes in her mind.

 

What I think is due to her very conservative up bringings (like all other eastern muslim girls) it will take her some time to mentally accept it. She has been fair in telling that she does not enjoy it which i never doubt, but this shows that we do not have communication gaps, but what i think that gradually she will swallow it mentally and will start enjoying it, like many other things e.g. at initial period of our marriage, she used to think licking and sucking and dirty act and never enjoyed that but now she loves that. Before she never sucked more then few seconds but now I sometimes have to stop her ;). And i see a difference already from our first session to the last session we had.

 

I might be proved wrong, and it may be true that she never enjoy it but i think to experience it a little more before closing the chapter forever.

 

What you people say.

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Well from the way you posted this. You and another guy, are choosing her to participate in something she doesn't enjoy. You need to STOP. Your either not hearing her say (NO) or you don't care for someone who gave you a wonderful experience for you to just have as a wonderful memory. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, that your a dumb ass guy like me..and you lost some of the text of the typing. We sure would like to hear her side of this. But, she has definitely been taking one for the team. :nono: Does she even have any choice in picking the other guy? Maybe, the other guy is a real turnoff for her, but its just convenient for you. The way things are written, it doesn't sound good to us. Let us know if you can give her control of the situation.

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I call this, the old negative out look that we women are told as girls sex is dirty, to look for pleasure I felt guilty and really afraid to let go and enjoy sex with someone else.

...

I did not realize all of this at first, I just felt confused,stressed and did not know what all was bothering, it was just feelings,so this could be some of what your wife is doing. It was easlier for me to do it for my husband,than face the fact and say I wanted to swing,full swap or whatever.

 

....

You and your wife read this let her see your post and she will really how much you want to see her really trully enjoy herself.

 

 

Yes, thats what I think as well. I might be wrong but to me its very early to conclude.

 

And yes, in future,whether i stop or continue, i will let her read not only this post but the board as well. Infact I have already told her that I have found this board very interesting and may tonight we might have our weekend exploring this forum together.

 

Thanks for the reply.

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well from the way you posted this you and another guy are cohorsing her to particepate in something she dosent enjoy.you need to STOP.your either not hearing her say NO or you dont care for someone who gave you a wonderfull experiance to just have as a wonderfull memory.ill give you the benifet of the doubt that your a dumbass guy like me and you lost some of the text of the typing.we shure would like to hear her side of this.but she has defanitly been taking one for the team. :nono: does she even have any choice in picking the other guy?maby the other guy is a real turnoff for her but its just convient for you. the way things are writen it dosent sound good to us.let us know if you can give her controll of the situation.

 

HEY GUYS SHE IS NOT BEING FORCED TO DO THIS.

 

I discuss, discuss and discuss with her before almost every session. Most of replies here are like she is being FORCED to do this, which is not the case.

 

I know I cannot make her enjoy something which she does not, but if read "twobears" post, u will know how SOME womens take this initially, when they think sex with others is dirty.

 

Here, at our part of world, girls take some time to actually enjoy with their husbands becuase sex is something NEW in their lives. So should we men stop having sex with them coz they dont enjoy or take sometime to realize that its something to take pleasure. :)

 

Can anyone give me an advise how make her realize that she can enjoy if she opens her mind's lock to think that its dirty.

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Like I said in my first post, you may not be presurring her. But I think that she feels pressured into this. If she is not enjoying it, then why else would she keep on doing it?

 

~SS

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Ok, maybe I'm not correct in the translation here. We are definitely from different parts of the world. I'm seeing that you care for your wife to be happy, all men want that who care. I am glad that you have many discussions. Or, what we call good communication. Do you mean she likes to do this and it is what we call having fun. Does she ask to do this? is she having fun but doesn't reach orgasm, climax? Do you let her make choices of who or who not, to be with. Can you say to your wife ( this time I will do as you wish.) and do that for her? Can you show her the freedom of sexuality? Sorry if it seems like you are being bashed on this board but we have different customs here. Stay around and let us know how things progress. Maybe you can let her communicate with some of the women on this board. We would like to hear her side of this. It might help.

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By reading your replies you are really kidding yourself.

 

You say that she does this to keep from losing you. If she even thinks that then someday you are in for a major surprise when you come home from work and find out that she has found someone that respects here and does not ask her to do things she does not enjoy just to "stay with them."

 

I discuss, discuss and discuss with her before almost every session.

 

You don't see it but in a way, this is force. Force her to keep listening to you do nothing but talk about YOUR DESIRES over and over and over until she goes along to get you to shut up and leave her alone.

 

You have a submissive lady that you are taking big time advantage of. I have seen this many times in the lifestyle. I have also seen those wonderful ladies wake up one day and figure out they deserve more from life then being taken advantage of by some guy that has no respect for them. You want your way, that is all over your writing here.

 

I hope you see someday that you have a good lady and stop taking advantage of that before you do lose her.

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I think everyone may be being a tad bit hard on pakidesires...As he states in this quote ....

 

Here, at our part of world, girls take some time to actually enjoy with their husbands becuase sex is something NEW in their lives. So should we men stop having sex with them coz they dont enjoy or take sometime to realize that its something to take pleasure. :)

 

They are in a totally different part of the world where their culture is totally different from ours. The women do not have the freedom of thought that we here have and open sexual discussions...i.e. magazines, movies, television, is not as prominent there as here. Although, I find it fascinating that regardless of culture/religious background, sexual desires and fantasy fulfillment always finds its way to the forefront no matter how hard some may try to stomp it down.

 

Can anyone give me an advise how make her realize that she can enjoy if she opens her mind's lock to think that its dirty.

 

I'm not sure I have any constructive advice for you. You are dealing with your wife's lifelong teachings that what she may desire is wrong. It's not easy for some women in our society to over come their early life teachings that sex with anyone but their husband is wrong, and I would imagine that for your wife it would be doubly so.

 

Bring her here to the board. Let her read over all the post here so she can see that she is not alone and that there are numerous women/couples who believe that what we do is not wrong and we find much joy and pleasure in it.

 

Above all else, be patient and understanding. She may never be able to have a paradigm shift in her thinking.

 

Teresa

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Ok, Teresa has a point. I have to admit I did not notice they are in Pakistan. I now understand a bit better what he is talking about but honestly, does not change my personal feelings on this matter.

 

No matter where anyone lives, the wife should not be going along just to make the husband happy.

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No matter where anyone lives, the wife should not be going along just to make the husband happy.

 

I totally agree with you 100% on that.

 

It's just that a lot of times we forget that those things we take for granted here are considered so wrong in other societies...there are places in the world where a woman would be put to death because she had sex with a man that was not her husband, regardless of the fact that it was her husband who wanted/encouraged her to do so.

 

 

Teresa

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Paki, first of all I think it's good you came to this board for advice. That in itself does show your concern. There is a bit of a cultural difference as far as what role the male and female play in our countries. That being said, here is my advice.

 

Give your wife the power to decide what she wants and who she wants to do it with. If she is making the decisions, she may be more comfortable with what's going on. If she never wants to do anything, then she has the power to make that choice.

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I They are in a totally different part of the world where their culture is totally different from ours. The women do not have the freedom of thought that we here have and open sexual discussions...

 

Teresa, I agree with you that this MAY BE an important factor to have in mind here, but while in one hand this have to do with Pakidesires honesty in the way he's reading the situation for his wife, in the other it's something that affect both of them to "equalize" the situation.

 

First of all, I don't know Pakistani culture, I do know Muslims from several part of the world and some occidental women who were actually living inmersed in the Muslim culture in these places, whose oppinion about these issues changed after that.

 

At least in these places, even when it is true that culture impose more strict rules of behavior, these rules works for both genders as well, and grants members of both genders with rights and obligations that somehow equalize them all. Of course, this "equalization" isn't such when being seen under our eyes: we're also "wired" and limited to think in certain ways as a result of our own culture. There's no way to validate or invalidate other cultures uses and customs, unless you believe your culture is "better" than these ones, and from our culture we did that for centuries, in fact, if lou look trough European history (we inherit our culture from them), you'd see we're wired to do so (as some of them perceive their culture to be "better" than others).

 

Since both of them share the same culture here, both of them are accordingly "wired": I cannot make such an statament about "freedom of thinking" regarding to their culture (I don't know enough, nor dare to make such a comment regarding something I dont know enough), but let suppose it is true. If females have such a submisive position where they're not free to think, then males are used to think in behalf of females and impose their will over females.

 

Assumint this submisive position were "victimizing" Pakidesires wife, then this would turn Pakidesires in the "abuser", but not because of lack of honesty nor good will, instead because both ot them would be culturally wired this way.

 

In such an scenario, Pakidesires desires to "please her wife" would involve this "right" he culturally already have to think in behalf of her wife, as much as she "submit" herself to his will, and also it is not too likely for her to leave him because of challenging this "right" he have to think in her behalf, so our supposition that she may leave him wouldn't fit, nor become a threat for him albe to make him change his mind.

 

This scenario would fit some of Palidesires's expressions, moreover those so ill seen by us, where we say he's "confusing" his own desires with hers.

 

Thus, supposing you're right here, you'd be adding an argument toward those who adviced him against going on, as much as an argument that deprive us from ANY chance to provide advice on the grounds of the lack of enough knowledge about their culture, whatever such an advice could be.

 

Of course, we must be carefull here and because of this, but we have what we have, we're wired our own way, and it was Pakidesires the one who came here asking for advice from people having a different culture, and even if it were true that he came here because we were "more opend minded". The only advice we can provide here is the one fitting our culture: if he were coming here because we're more "open minded", then he'd have to deal with the pros and the cons he'll face from this.

 

Being judgamental with his culture by trying to do AS IF we were able to have an in deepth and enlighted understanding of it entitling us to provide him solutions fitting to his culture or that would ideally lead to cultural changes wouldn't work here, moreover it risks to be even dangerous for them both to follow such an advice, sice they will still have to deal with the same culture on a daily basis.

 

So, it's true, they both have their mind locked in a cultural jail... as much as we have our mind locked in a different cultural jail. We speak from one jail to another, we're not able to have a living experience of each other jail, but listen to the descriptions we do about our jails. The advice we can provide is valid only in our jails, and it is the other the one who have to figure out if such an advice is usefull his/her own jail, we're not entitled to evaluate this since it is forbidden for us to ever be in such a jail (even if we were there in a visit).

 

So, I believe it is right to stick to our very personal way to see the problem and our original advice.

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I may be way off track here, and forgive me if I am. Pakidesires, it seems to me that what you are saying, paraphrased, is that she does seem to enjoy most of the soft swing type play leading up to actual sex but very little of what follows. My advise to you would be to remember that enjoying the swinging lifestyle as a couple means ALWAYS socialize (play etc...) up to but not beyond the comfort level of the LEAST comfortable of the two of you. If she enjoys foreplay, cuddling, kissing, flirting with others then that is as far as she should go at that time. The single over-riding rule that my wife and I have followed throughout our 12 years in the lifestyle has always been;

 

If anyone involved would be hurt, emotionally, physically, mentally (and that includes enjoying what they are experiencing) then it is not allowed.

 

For the first 3 years we were participating in the lifestyle she was uncomfortable with the idea of me playing with another woman. Therefore, I didn't. If you take your time, be patient and always operate up to but not beyond her comfort level the lifestyle can be a remarkable experience for both of you. Have patience and allow her to find out at her own speed what pleasure is all about.

 

I sincerely hope I'm not off track here and I certainly wish you both good luck.

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I'm (male half of the couple) fairly new both to the lifestyle and this board, so correct me If i'm out of place...

It seems to me the purpose of this forum, and my duty should I undertake to speak as a lifestyler, is to provide accurate, unbiased information as to the benefits (and dangers) of swinging.

It should NOT be the purpose of this board, or anyone who purports to speak for the lifestyle, to "talk someone into" swinging when they are clearly not ready.

Vegas Lee is so, so right. This thread should have ended with his initial response.

Yes, swinging is a great lifestyle for those of us who "get it", who understand it's about genuinely free choice, about equality, about sharing and perhaps most important, about respect. But every day, there are two or three new posts, from people who don't get it, asking for help in getting their reluctant partners onside. And because we're so eager to "sell" swinging, we say, "Just bring her to the board, we'll show her the way."

Why? She is saying No.

She is being asked to perform sexual acts against her will. There is a word for that. Rape!

The vast majority of people who write these "help me convince my spouse" posts are not swingers in any way, shape or form. They are abusers.

And every time we tell people to bring their reluctant SOs to the board so we can convert them, we become participants in a gang-bang.

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this is getting interesting isint it :) pakidesires said on his last posts that he is not forceing his wife to do this and they were going to look at this board together this weekend.that is what we do (look at this board together) their are some language and cultural barriers here. it is good that we can come together with diffrent views. lets give them a chance to come back. if mrs.pakidesires sees some of this i think she will get the point that she has the choice that each person has a right to say NO.im not the most intelegent person but i would be the first to tell them to STOP if some one is being hurt by the swinging lifestyle. i hope they get a chance to come back.

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sereneiders,

 

I do see your point. It is extremely hard to give advice to someone whose lives are so totally different from what we are used to. All we can do is give it from our own experiences, feelings and thought. However, I still think it's important to try and take into consideration what the other is dealing with.

 

As I did state, I didn't feel I had any constructive advice for pakidesire but...the advice I did give was pretty much the advice I give anyone who comes here looking for ways to get their wife involved in swinging.

 

I see pakidesire as a progressive thinking man who wants his wife to enjoy swinging, not only for his pleasure but mainly for her's. To me he's like the husbands here who enjoy swinging but their wife's pleasure and enjoyment of it supercedes his own.

 

I could be totally wrong, but that is the way I see it.

 

Teresa

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And every time we tell people to bring their reluctant SOs to the board so we can convert them, we become participants in a gang-bang.

 

 

Ummm, no I don't believe that is true. No one here ever tries to convert anyone. If you will read over the board you will find that it's said over and over again...Swinging is not for everyone.

 

When we tell people to bring their SO here, it's so that their SO can make an informed decision. This board is full of the good, the bad and the ugly of swinging. Anyone who reads over the 1000s of post here will get a very well rounded view of what they might be considering getting involved in.

 

 

Teresa

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pakidesires, if, as you say, your wife is new to sexual activity and pleasure, I can only suggest that you give her time to enjoy what the two of you do together before you even think about introducing others into your bedroom.

 

As many women here can testify, they weren't comfortable with the idea of swinging until they were over the age of 35 and had been married for many years.

 

You will have to be very patient, I think.

 

-B

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I'm (male half of the couple) fairly new both to the lifestyle and this board, so correct me If i'm out of place...

It seems to me the purpose of this forum, and my duty should I undertake to speak as a lifestyler, is to provide accurate, unbiased information as to the benefits (and dangers) of swinging.

It should NOT be the purpose of this board, or anyone who purports to speak for the lifestyle, to "talk someone into" swinging when they are clearly not ready.

Vegas Lee is so, so right. This thread should have ended with his initial response.

Yes, swinging is a great lifestyle for those of us who "get it", who understand it's about genuinely free choice, about equality, about sharing and perhaps most important, about respect. But every day, there are two or three new posts, from people who don't get it, asking for help in getting their reluctant partners onside. And because we're so eager to "sell" swinging, we say, "Just bring her to the board, we'll show her the way."

Why? She is saying No.

She is being asked to perform sexual acts against her will. There is a word for that. Rape!

The vast majority of people who write these "help me convince my spouse" posts are not swingers in any way, shape or form. They are abusers.

And every time we tell people to bring their reluctant SOs to the board so we can convert them, we become participants in a gang-bang.

 

Ewwww... I believe it is true what you said in your first pharagrap... you're new to this board.

 

The purpose isn't to "sell" anything to anyone here. And if there is something being sold, it's everyone's oppinion and mindset, i.e., you get to read a thread, you reach to a degree of (miss)understanding of the post(s), you ask questions/give your very personal oppinion based on your understandig, someone else does the same, read the posts (including yours), (miss)understand the discussion, add more questions and provide his/her personal oppinion. That's the meaning of a forum: we don't understand things the same way, our understading is biased by our own experiences, some may put the accent in certain aspects of a discussion that was meaningless for the previous posters, and we all contribute with our best effort in the discussion.

 

There are for sure who honestly believe swinging is the soluttion for all the world's problem, and sells that, as much as others who faced problems and trend to take a conservative and skeptic approach, and a range of oppinions in the middle way... and all of them deserves to be heard and can provide some insight to the problem, and not only for the original poster one, also for others who come later on an may identify with the original poster or what have been said.

 

I may agree that getting your wife drunk to push her into swinging is a rape. But if you read around, you'd find out oppinions from women who were reluctanct at first, that later on became swingers succesfully just because of her husband insistence.

 

When we ask someone to bring the SO here, it isn't to "help convince", instead because we need to tell appart what leads to such a reluctancy, because it may come for being prejudgamental or from fears that THE RELUCTANCT one, by him/herself MAY overcome by reading other posts in the forum that he/she can feel identified with and get an insight about the subject, even when that leads him/her to say DEFINATELY NO.

 

In my case, if you read my posts, I don't make any oppinion about the ones the posters are talking about, like gessing their motivations and talking given these motivations for granted. The only I am facing are the subjective perception from the poster about a problem (and even an imaginary situation), so I only can talk about the poster and the post words, since I am SURE the poster CANNOT give us an OBJETIVE description of what's going on. To be able to talk about the problem you have to listen both bells. To be respectfull with the people referred in these words, you have to invite them ALL to provide their own viewing about the same things.

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Sorry for being late in my reply.

 

I read all the replies with great interest and instead of replying each post separately I will try to summarize many points i gathered from all the posts.

 

1. We have married for 10+ years already and enjoy a very friendly and open relationships with each other. As I mentioned we can talk openly on just any topic. I have my hots on with one of her close relatives and I had no problems telling her the same. This is just to tell you people that we can share and talk our very internal thoughts very easily.

 

2. Why I think she will enjoy it laters? It will take her some time to absorb all this something very new and strange to her. I remember, when I first introduced her the idea, she refused to accept that there would be a single male on earth who would think the same for her wife. Her initial concern was that later in our life I will regret it and may taunt her as well, but as time passed by she was ready to give it a try but mentioned specifically that she was doing it only for my pleasure. This whole process comprises of more then a year.

 

3. I do agree that may be the third person, a married guy, is a turn of for her. Some1 wrote that I should have given her choice in this regards. I wish I could but here in this world we dont have much choices in this regards. Finding such couples is almost impossible here. I came accross many who claimed to be in same lifestyle but most of them turned out the be fake ones.

 

4. I let her read this posts, but at that time there were not as many replies as now. She agreed to that post in which it was written that she was initially stressed and confused. And she said that "If I let her decide she will stop doing it". I am sure many people will again take me wrong and will say that I should stop immediately and she is not into this life style at all, but my point of view, may be wrong, is that she needs some time to accept this idea. There is a difference between our first swinging session than the last one. To develop the taste of black coffee, you need to have it for sometime but once you start liking it u always prefer that.

 

I once again say that eventually my point of view might be proved wrong but to me it is a bit early to say that. Like many other sex activities between us (me and she) she took some time to actually enjoy and taking pleasure out of it. This new lifestyle is the same but much bigger thing to swallow for her. She is not enjoying it is becuase mental bariers she has. Which once crossed she will start liking it.

 

In the end, to all who wrote that I must stop it or I will loose her, I will indeed stop if I think that I have tried enough and this lifestyle is not for her. Simply becuase if she is not enjoying i wont as well. At this point of time, i have a hope that she will. It all will end automatically if that hope is no more there.

 

I may be sounding like a stuborn child, but I am quite sure that she will be on the right track soon and if not that the end of the road.

 

You may ask that whats the point of my original post if i was so sure about the whole thing, I actually wanted to know that if there is anyone else who experienced the same, specially any lady out there who has gone thru all this and then later on start taking pleasure instead of initial deniel. if yes, it would be really great to know what was her mind and what helped her crossing the initial barier and stressing state.

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thank you for coming back pakidisers. you would have looked dishonest had you not returned. here is all i can say. yes my wife was against this lifestyle when i first spoke of it. we did not go as far as you and then ask for information. when she said she would not enjoy this. I STOPED. i told my wife that was enough for me. i needed to tell her my feelings but we did not have to act on my desires. after 2 yrs she brought it back into our relationship. she could only enjoy this if she could be in control. it took 2 years of no coffee for her to enjoy black coffee. you can hear your wife but you can not understand your wife. it must be your wifes decision for her to enjoy this.it is the only way.

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I 100% agree with you fun4Ds. I would love to hear from your wife, what actually went thru her mind when she did not enjoy and then after 2 years what charmed her back to this. This is actually i want to know. To read the mind of a women who has gone thru these stages of deniel and then pleasure.

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...

 

I may agree that getting your wife drunk to push her into swinging is a rape. But if you read around, you'd find out oppinions from women who were reluctanct at first, that later on became swingers succesfully just because of her husband insistence.

 

 

I want those women's to share their thoughts, if possible.

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i pertain to the post here with Mrs.funs advice and approval. she pertains to the people we play with. if she wishes to enlitein you ....uhhh... be carefull she can rip your sole and go to your mother.

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Pakidesire,

 

Same than fun4ds happend here. I told my wife about swinging about 15 years ago. She dislike the idea, and I STOPPED right there. In fact, I never told her again about this, I just limited myself to slowly bring some fantasies to our bed, like roleplaying as if we were other people instead of us, and later on (with a toy I bought and gave her time to get curious enough before actually using it) as if someone else were with us -and since the idea of "another one" was too gross for her, I had to set things as if there were "two of me" to make the idea acceptable.

 

It was just 2 years ago that she bring up the subject again, on her own, and that we started swinging. And in part because she was confident that it wasn't a big issue for me, that she knew I had this fantasies but I never, ever, mentioned swinging again since she said no.

 

As for me, I find a valid question is if you're up to live without swinging, if the turn on that is for you to know your wife enjoys another guy the way you want her to do it, worths the way you may be stressing her. And this is a valid question because she may be asking herself the same, and it would deppend on your answers the degree of trust she'll have.

 

IMHO, the problem of being pushy with her would come from the fact that she's being reluctanct. She may end up "used" to get laid with other guys, doing this to make you happy, against her hesitation, and even growing a hate for herself and for you, while telling you how much she enjoy this, and just because she preffer this to face you.

 

How would you know, if she ever tells you she is enjoying this, it this is the true or a lie? Would you care to know?

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Pakidesire,

 

Same than fun4ds happend here. I told my wife about swinging about 15 years ago. She dislike the idea, and I STOPPED right there. In fact, I never told her again about this, I just limited myself to slowly bring some fantasies to our bed, like roleplaying as if we were other people instead of us, and later on (with a toy I bought and gave her time to get curious enough before actually using it) as if someone else were with us -and since the idea of "another one" was too gross for her, I had to set things as if there were "two of me" to make the idea acceptable.

 

It was just 2 years ago that she bring up the subject again, on her own, and that we started swinging. And in part because she was confident that it wasn't a big issue for me, that she knew I had this fantasies but I never, ever, mentioned swinging again since she said no.

 

 

Very much same here, I did mention in my posts that it took more then a year to get her ready for first try. I did the same as you mentioned. After a year & half of so when she said YES, but clearly mentioned that she is doing it for my pleasure. I took the chance that she might enjoy later on. I started with some camming session on net just to make her easy then a very soft swing and today we have reached where we are now.

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How would you know, if she ever tells you she is enjoying this, it this is the true or a lie? Would you care to know?

 

I mentioned this as well, we have no communication barriers and can talk openly and trust each other. If she will not enjoy she will not say it. She has and will never pretend.

 

There are many indications of her liking this lifestyle even before when we started it. Like, once i showed her porn cards and asked her to pick which excited her more and she picked two out of 50. In one a lady was holding two dicks, and the other quite similar.

 

We wathch adult movies together and most of times she is excited when MFM scene is there. There are many indications which prompted me to go for it. but i did all the homework i could before acting it out.

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There is a difference between fantasy and reality. It seems to me that she likes the idea of swinging, the fantasy of having two men...but in reality, she does not like it. She likes to see it on porn movies, she likes to think about, maybe she even likes to talk about, but I get the impression that she does like to do it!

 

I would suggestion giving it a break. Figure out what is best for both of you, don't assume you know what she likes. Talk about it, learn about it, but don't do it...at least until she is ready.

 

~SS

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Paki,

In my experience swingers are a judgmental lot. Only you can read your own situation. I think it is perfectly possible she will end up liking it and I think you already know what is true in what others have said, namely the need to be patient and listening.

There is nothing per se wrong with her doing it for your pleasure, I am sure you also do many things for her pleasure. Not particularly to enjoy it is different from violently hating it.

My advice is, don't accept quick judgments from people who don't know your situation. Just listen to your heart. I'm sure that's not easy in your environment, so I wish you luck.

fb

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Paki,

In my experience swingers are a judgmental lot. Only you can read your own situation. I think it is perfectly possible she will end up liking it and I think you already know what is true in what others have said, namely the need to be patient and listening.

There is nothing per se wrong with her doing it for your pleasure, I am sure you also do many things for her pleasure. Not particularly to enjoy it is different from violently hating it.

My advice is, don't accept quick judgments from people who don't know your situation. Just listen to your heart. I'm sure that's not easy in your environment, so I wish you luck.

fb

 

This brings to an interesting question, then: Why to come here asking for advice?

 

It may be because he's trying to understand something so he can choose what to do next about it, or because he needs to justify what he's doing by the reasure we can provide him here.

 

In any case, he's the one opening the door for others to comment about his problems, and he's the one who choose whose oppinion fits and whose doesn't. People is judgamental, and not becasue of being or not being swingers: we do it as the natural way to categorize toughts and get the meaning from what we read or listen. Morover, we do it honestly, so I feel that even when "swingers are judgamental" (as many others around), this doesn't deprive our oppinion from a value. This is a SWINGERS board, and people come here to listen this judgamental people advice.

 

Muting ourselves to prevent being judgamental would lead to a forum where no one answers the posts except to be nice, tell what people want to hear, and advice everyone to "go with their hearts" because heart knows better. If that were the case, he wouldn't be here at all... no one would even post a thread, there wouldn't be a board at all.

 

I respect your oppinion, and I'd ask you to respect other ones oppinion as well. We talk from our experience an knowledge (good or bad) and do it honestly. We invest time in taking care for others unknown people problems. I feel disrespectfull to deprive our oppinions from all the value just because "we're being judgamental". Just pick an oppinion and argue against these judgamental points you saw, that would be more usefull than throwing everyone's else oppinion to the trash with an ambiguous and generalized statement.

 

I am confident in my guts, in my own heart, in my understanding hability and in my experience as to stick to my oppinion. The previous sentence is absolutelly judgamental, and there's nothing wrong about this.

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Sereneiders,

It is not because you have an opinion that you have to simplify all shades of meaning and context out of existence.

Even if he is asking for it by posting here, it is still questionable to draw sweeping conclusions from what he writes, whilst ignoring most of it.

Therefore, I think it is not unreasonable for me to suggest he give these opinions less weight than their authors would like.

In my experience, swingers are very judgmental on this subject, but it might be just those swingers who post on such notice boards as I haven't really noticed the phenomenon in real life.

fb

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Pakidesires,

 

It's true that we can be judgmental. I don't have a problem with this. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy. Sometimes we'll say things that aren't what the OP wanted to hear, but we are honest. We don't make a habit of judging just to make someone look bad or feel bad. We do it because we are genuinely concerned for the decisions they are making, and want to offer some objectivity.

 

Now, with regard to the problem of your wife not enjoying swinging, but doing it to please you...

 

I don't think I've ever heard of this NOT causing resentment down the road. If she is uncomfortable with the morality of what you are both doing, yet you continue to coerce or pressure her (and even pouting is a form of pressure), she will feel that she is demeaning herself to please you...and that should never be asked of anyone. Even if she does it willingly, it doesn't neccessarily mean she is okay with it.

 

While approaching swinging slowly and patiently as she sorts through her feelings will not give instant gratification, it does mean that she'll be more confident and happy in her decision when she does choose swinging on her own. The alternative is to continue the sink-or-swim approach, with her as an unhappy participant, and instead of getting to like it, she burns out on it. The result: she never wants to swing again (and everyone reaches their breaking point sooner or later), and she is angry at you for allowing her to allow herself to have done this.

 

Only you know your wife. This could very well not be the case, and you may be the exception to the rule, but this is just what I've observed in swinging in general.

 

Good luck!

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Hello Pakidesires,

 

This is difficult because only you live with your lady. Only you are the one who sees whether she wants to do it again. Only you know what her reactions mean in the midst of things.

 

Cultural fears aside: Even though she doesn't say she hates it, to even say that she doesn't like it all that much would be enough for me to call things to a halt. So I'd say "better to let things go now before something happens that is truly unforeseen."

 

M.D.

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Sereneiders,

It is not because you have an opinion that you have to simplify all shades of meaning and context out of existence.

Even if he is asking for it by posting here, it is still questionable to draw sweeping conclusions from what he writes, whilst ignoring most of it.

Therefore, I think it is not unreasonable for me to suggest he give these opinions less weight than their authors would like.

In my experience, swingers are very judgmental on this subject, but it might be just those swingers who post on such notice boards as I haven't really noticed the phenomenon in real life.

fb

 

Ok. And from here to say "follow your heart"?

 

Moreover when so many of us became "judgamental" because of the same facts he stated over and over, like a wife doing something she unconfortable with, just for his pleasure, added to the "i know better" attitude (that you endorse with your advice), while saying he does it because of her pleasure (in fact, because this would be a turn on for him).

 

I don't know you, but i've seen the results of such a recipe, it hardly would lead him to where he want to go, and risks his entire relationship. He may be the exception? yes, as many others going against an advice, but you advice allways comes from a judgment, even if such an advice were grounded on "how judgamentals others are": that's also judgamental.

 

I am sorry if a poster (even the original one) dislike my oppinion. I am not here because I want everyone around to like me, I am here to give back to a community of lifestylers the same sort of things I got and appreciated from them, an hosest advice and a carefull attitude towards others.

 

Lately I found myself thinking of swinging as an enhancer proccess: it enhances everithing you have inside a marriage, the good and the bad things, and while the good things may be pleasurable, the bad things once enhanced may become something very hard to take, and enough to overcome all the good things.

 

When I see POTENTIAL bad things, I warn about them because these would be the source of problems. The OP may not be interested in hearing about potential problems, just to know how to make this happen, under the belief that the good things would worth the price or that she/he will be able to deal with the eventual problems, and in this case I believe she/he would be making a big mistake.

 

At last, I am selfish here: I belong to a community of swingers, I want to protect the community, and ourselves, from being ill seen by the rest of the society as a bunch of amorals able to screw up other people just to get a laid. This leads me to a conservative approach when facing people having POTENTIAL bad things in their relationship who ask us for advice.

 

My only regret is not having Intuition897's hablility to express so cleverly the same advice I wanted to provide here.

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pakidisers, im hoping you are seing that the answers to your problems are not simple.when you came here it looked as if you wanted some advice on convincing your wife to enjoy what you both were doing. as you see there is nothing simple. intuition has given some advice from a womens point of view that is honest and well thought.your wife will only enjoy if it is her will and desire to do so.please return to tell us your desisions as a couple. good luck with your life and your lifestyle. best of wishes.

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Thanks fun4Ds and all other who replied.

 

I read all other the msgs with great concerns. I will be back once i choose my future path for sure. I will try it a little more and if it proves that this lifestyle is not for her i will stop.

 

Hopefully, i will be back with her admiting that she is there with me. :)

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Dear Pakidesires

Since i am a Pakistani women living in Islamabad and me and my husband are into swinging for the last 2 years (mostly with with one couple and some soft swap), i can see what you are trying to say.

 

As a women let me chip in my opinion. I think your wife like the idea of swinging but not with this particular guy.

 

Secondly, being a Pakistani women i can say with some degree of surety that since the other wife is not involved, your wife may be having some feelings of in-appropriateness for her actions.

 

Get the other women involved or find some other couple. I suggest you do it as a couple's activity not just the guy and that should solve your problem.

 

You must take into account our culture and the up-bringing girls get.

 

I hope this will help you.

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I would not continue with it. Perhaps she's afraid that you may be disappointed if she doesn't participate, or is uneasy about saying no to the activity.

 

Perhaps you should ask her what would be pleasurable for her?

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I dont agree that i must fear of losing her this way. Infact, its other way around, she is doing it becuase she does not want to lose me.

 

So, she is caving in out of fear that you will get bored, grow tired of her and that you'll leave her for some woman who will want to swing, or that you'll start cheating on her. This is the #1 reason that any woman (in any culture and here in America, too), reluctantly caves into her husband's requests when she herself doesn't want it and doesn't enjoy it. This is truly sad to me. She is choosing to do something she doesn't want to do, only to avoid something she wants even less (husband leaving/cheating).

 

This isn't a big cultural difference. American and westernized men come onto this board every week with the same mindset.

 

I feel lucky to have such a lovely wife who can do anything for me even if she does not like it.

 

I find this to be really sad - for her. It's not that she can do anything for you, it's that she feels she must choose what for her is the "lesser of two evils". Not a fun choice for any person to have to make.

 

I have never pressurised her that i will leave if she does not participate. I must admit that i may be a bit pushy sometime but its not a hard way.

 

Men who are pushing for swinging never seem to understand that what they do is pressure for a woman - the way they regularly bring it up, the way they're always looking for a new angle, and how almost everything they present to their wives is yet another ploy (sex cards, new videotape?) to convince their wives to do something they don't presently want to do. The reason these guys come to this board and start posting is to find new tricks and ways of convincing their wives.

 

If you try to put yourself in her shoes, you might understand how it is pressure. Pretend that her fantasy is something you really don't want to do. You tell her that you won't enjoy this and you don't want it. But, she keeps bringing it up and looking for more ways to convince you of it. Knowing you don't want it, she even sets it up with somebody and starts making it happen, anyway. This isn't pressure?

 

There are many indications of her liking this lifestyle even before when we started it. Like, once i showed her porn cards and asked her to pick which excited her more and she picked two out of 50. In one a lady was holding two dicks, and the other quite similar.

 

We wathch adult movies together and most of times she is excited when MFM scene is there. There are many indications which prompted me to go for it.

 

It's very common for men to draw conclusions about how they can get their wife into swinging just because their wife has enjoyed the little games they've played between the two of them, sex talks and fantasies. For many, many women, liking these things as spice between the two of you has nothing to do with ever wanting to actually swing. Men read a LOT into these things. They are not necessarily clues that a woman wants to actually participate in sex with other people, no matter how turned-on she gets with the movie, game or sex talk.

 

Again, this is something that is posted here all of the time, by American & westernized men trying to get their wives into swinging - these assumptions. You are no different. They are looking for what they see as indications, and end up manufacturing indications due to their wishful thinking.

 

A woman either enjoys this activity and wants it, or she doesn't. You can't make her like it, or have a genuine personal desire for it. You may be able to "condition" her to it over time (which is what you are doing), but that's not the same.

 

First of all I must clear that I dont intend to continue if she never enjoys it

 

How long will you push for it and keep this activity going, before you decide she'll "never" enjoy it?

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Ok, Teresa has a point. I have to admit I did not notice they are in Pakistan. I now understand a bit better what he is talking about but honestly, does not change my personal feelings on this matter.

 

No matter where anyone lives, the wife should not be going along just to make the husband happy.

 

 

Before we go around bashing people, we should at least take the time to examine their personal info.

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I'm getting a tad confused. I keep reading that it was usually the man who suggested and, dare I say, pleaded and beg the woman to get into the lifestyle but that it was the originally reluctant woman who keeps them there. So at what point does the reluctance wear off and the woman start to enjoy the Lifestyle.

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I'm the first to say that you shouldn't push someone into swinging. But I'm also the first to say that a gentle push now and then can change a lot. Let me describe our situation.

I thought that my wife was the last one on earth that could be convinced to swing. After 15 years of marriage (20 years together) our sex live was about to be somehow non-existent. Some of that was her fault, some of that was mine but the biggest reason was lack of communication. Sure there wasn't lack of communication on day-to-day subjects like the kids, the family, renovating our house but there was almost no communication on our relation, sex live....

Due to some circumstances some day we started communicating about this, and I took the chance and brought up the subject "swinging". The first reaction was: "NO WAY". I let it cool down for a few weeks, but we we're still communication about other aspects of our sex live. We love to tease and surprise each other, so I started a tease-session about a surprise trip I had planned, giving her all kind of hints and tips that would lead to what we would do. Besides going to shop, staying in a very nice suite in a very beautiful hotel, sightseeing,... one of the nights we would be going to a swingers club. I picked out one quite far from us: so she wouldn't be afraid to meet someone we know, but also because it got reviews to be the best one around, not only offering swinging facilities, but also a sauna, massage temple...

Her first reaction when she found out (and this was shortly before we left) was: "I'm NOT going into that place". We talked a lot and we finally agreed on going to it, and staying until at least 11pm, the moment that the 'dress-code' starts and we should go into lingerie. Until 11pm it should be like a regular disco... After 11pm she could ask us to leave at any moment, no questions asked...

When we entered she was very nervous, we ate, danced,.. and around 11 got undressed (in lingerie). We went to the massage temple and I gave her a nice massage. I had to put a little pressure on her to take of the rest of her clothes (you're nice new lingerie will get greasy...), but she did. Then she started giving me a massage and it seemed that I wasn't the only one who was really turned on, she started having sex we me (her on top) and had one of her biggest orgasms ever.

We shortly left after that, and talked for a few hours, when I asked her: will we ever come again, she replied: "hmm yes but not in the first 6 months".

At home we talked about it quite often, told her I wanted to go again (earlier) but would wait until she wanted to go again. After about 3 months I asked her if she was ready for a next visit or if she wanted to wait more. Again she hesitated a bit and I had to push her a little bit, but we went. We had a great time again, did a bit more (into the big jacuzzi), and talked about it afterwards a lot again. This time she agreed that 6 months is too long and that she wouldn't mind coming every 3-4 months to this club. Too make a long story short we're 8 months later now and we've been 5 times to a club.

Even more she planned a vacation in a swingers hotel as a surprise for me. We couldn't go (the hotel closed unexpectedly), but I found something else: a swingers boat trip. First she didn't want to go because the limited amount of other guests (only 3 other couples) and because it was a whole week (what if it's not good, if the couples aren't nice, if they're pushy...). After some talking we went, and we can both say that this is the nicest vacation we ever had together... !!!

 

Until the boat trip we hadn't done anything with another couple (in the beginning because she didn't want to, during our last club visit because we couldn't find a couple that we both wanted to) so this was going to be our first experience. I was definitely going to be disappointed if no swap occurred, she was still a bit afraid of it.... Well nothing happened during the trip and I have to say, she more disappointed about that than I am...

2 of the couples knew each other and didn't want to make contact to us and the other couple thought they were too old for us (they are in there late 40's, we are in our mid 30's). We we're to green to take initiative with them and they didn't want to because of the age difference... (they wanted but thought we wouldn't want to). To my surprise my wife was almost more eager to swap than I was, one of the last days she asked me if I would mind having a separate room swap as the rooms where too small for 4 people and during the last 2 days the boat was in a port and we couldn't have sex on deck on the big mattress. It didn't came that far but we assured the couple that they are not too old and since we all like each other.... (unfortunately they live about 250 miles from us).

So you see that sometimes a little push can help, but I agree that if the other person says no, you should respect that and give it some time. If after that time it's still a no, give it some more time, and after.... until you both agree or you give up.

 

Sorry for any spelling or grammar mistakes, English is not my native language...

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belgiumCouple,

 

From your story I wouldn't saw you was pushy, instead that your wife needed an excuse to get out from the closet :) You even said a couple of times how you was "surprised" by the way she took the lead.

 

In any case, we shouldn't jump to conclusions based solely in your story, nor in anyone's else story alone. It is true, perhaps, that the first "NO WAY" reaction doesn't necesarilly mean this is the final word. After all, you're shaking your wife's world, asking her to become "the whore" instead of the good girl she was supposed to be in order to be accepted as a wife, so it makes sense that the first reaction could be a defensive one.

 

However, it seems the OP wife already attempted to say no in many ways, and gave him a lot of clues about how much she dislike the whole idea. And it is ok: swinging isn't everyone's cup of tea, in fact, it is a very few one's cup ot tea. And we don't even have her words for it, but her husbands words, and that's enough to tell she already drown the line, and he's being just pushy... but "pushy" here means, when you push beyond that line... which wasn't your case. Right?

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