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idon'tknow

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15 Good

About idon'tknow

  • Rank
    Contributor
  • Birthday 03/05/1978

Personal Info

  • Relationship Status
    couple
  • Location
    wisconsin
  • Anniversary
    xx/xx/xxxx
  1. Something has to change. Something will change. It's in the process of changing. How about this for an analogy... she and I are both in the hole, I'm grabbing the ropes, putting the contraptions together, and slowly but steadily climbing up and inch at time. Occasionally she recognizes it and stops digging down and helps climb but then gets confused and starts digging again. In the meantime I've got a rope attached to me that's attached to her so she doesn't slip too far. I popped the other female upside the head with the proverbial 2X4 last week and she's changing how she does and thinks about me and our relationship and she says that she and her husband are on the same page as me. My wife's 2X4 is coming. It'll be dark, it'll be bad, it may ruin us, but I plan on holding on to that rope until she willingly unties it from herself and falls or grabs it and starts climbing. I've got a lot of friends on my side on this. Last night was a good night for the two of us. I had a shitty day at work (nursy stuff), came home and the two of us soaked in the tub and talked for a couple hours. Then we had a quickie. Then we did something we haven't done in months... we watched a t.v. show together and fell asleep in each other's arms. I'd like for the two of us to run through Julie's book together too... or maybe the four of us. Maybe we can make it a book club thing lol. Bottom line is I'm not letting go of the rope without a fight. Sun (or anyone else): On that thread you linked there was a post about "Our 'Playtime Agreement'" It's a huge thread and I couldn't find exactly what the playtime agreement was. Can anyone link that to me or something? I'd appreciate it. Thank you.
  2. I don't know what else to do. If I say to her, "we're done with them" the shit will hit the fan. I don't know how to change it. For all I know we might be done anyway and I'm just trying to hold the pieces together. She can't see it. She can't see her behavior. She can't see how much she hurts me. My feelings, my opinions, everything about me doesn't matter to her right now. She blames me for all the problems we've been having and my perspective doesn't matter. Eventually the excitement will wear off. It always has with other things, I see no reason why it wouldn't this time. I'll be there when it falls apart, and I'll be there to help pick her up and keep her going. I know it's not right. I know it's maladaptive. I know it's bad. It hasn't always been this way, but when she gets "like that" it gets that way.
  3. It's been one huge long roller-coaster with a lot of ups and a lot of downs. Because I wanted to maintain my marriage (and because after 15 years of being with her I like to think I know how she is) I decided to just kinda move forward with the relationship with the other couple and try to slowly change the dynamic behind the scenes. The 4 of us hit an all time low last week when my wife and I informed the female that we were planning on hanging out with the first couple with got together with. Holy jealousness, even though we weren't ever planning on playing with them. We all talked, long story, yada yada yada, but at one point the other female looked at me and said, "I gave you my heart. Don't break it." And it was all I could do to not get up and leave and quit the entire thing right there because I felt "responsible" for her happiness on top of my wife's. I didn't though. And this opened up an opportunity for me a couple days later. See part of the problem with me and my wife is that I can't share my feelings in front of her. She gets mad, she doesn't understand them, and even if its the same thing being said by everyone else she will look at me and tell me to shush or shake her head in disappointment at me. It's weird, the other couple sees it too, and they don't understand it. I talked to my wife about it and she said I was over-reacting, which I wasn't but whatever, I talked to my sister about it (the pure swinger) and she said, "drop 'em. Walk away." Then the other other female (the first couple we played with) had a nice long chat with this female about things. Then a couple days later the female and I were texting about it and I told her how I felt that night, what I liked about this first couple, and what I wanted (stuff I've been saying since day one) she said, "we need to talk." I walked in, she looked at me and said, "I'm doing this wrong. You want a swinging relationship. You want the friendship and camaraderie. You don't want the deep emotional stuff. And when I look back on it you've been saying this since we first got together and started talking about it." She and I had a good long conversation. Her husband was there for most of it. They're on my side of things. Swinging, but exclusiveness (till my wife gets tired of it--which I warned them she will). The friendship was suffering and I told them that, my relationship with my wife was suffering and I told them that. My wife is still in that point of being so "excited about something new" that her blinders are still on. This is how she does things. Eventually the excitement wears off and she can see things more clearly. My wife and I are hitting counseling next week. I hated that I had to talk to this other couple without my wife there, but since I can't share anything in front of her without her getting pissed off at me I felt I was justified in not including her.
  4. I've done this multiple times. It doesn't work. Either I'm really really shitty at expressing myself, or she just doesn't care. yes and no.... more no than yes though. Tonight's another low. On the upside I have just discovered, thanks to a lengthy cooling down period of walking around outside, that we now live in a beautiful neighborhood where the stars shine bright at night and you can hear the deer roaming around in the woods in the dark. It's quite peaceful. On the downside... even though she said she fine with the break... she's not as she so aptly demonstrated while we went out to eat and hang with the other couple (we still do friend things with them)... and said "they really want to swap for the night" asked if I wanted to swap for the night. Obviously I said no. And it went downhill from there. My heart hurts. I feel like the harder I try to work on things the worse they get.
  5. Thank you for the replies. I was at work yesterday and my wife sent me a message via text: "I love you so much. I would never do anything to hurt you or jeopardize our marriage... I'll work on this." We both have things we need to work on and will work on. One of the most surprising things for me in all of this has been her raw response to my hang ups and issues. It has been very much what Mauijanedoe threw out, selfish and toddler like. That's never been her, ever. But maybe that's part of the problem. Since I met that little woman on March 12 1998 (at 7pm-ish) her life has been one big "I'm never going to do things for myself... I live to make everyone else happy. I don't care about me." And since that night I've done my darnedest to make sure she felt safe enough that she could in fact do things for herself, buy things for herself, live for herself and be a strong independent kick-ass woman. Agreed. That's what I've been telling everyone involved. The other couple is totally on board and is more than happy to give us the space we need. I've been exploring options for marital counseling. She will likely say, "I don't feel like we need it" but that's just because that's how she is, and I'll say, "whether we need it or not, it will be beneficial for both of us."
  6. How many different ways can one say, "I need a break" and have it be taken a differently than it's meant? A lot apparently. The other couple is fine with it, has been fine with it and says, "take as long as you need and be together." She said she's going to miss the sex, but I can't help that, it's not like I was much in bed there towards the end anyway. My wife on the other hand is still hung up on the sex. "Why does it have to be a complete break? Why do you feel like we need to reconnect? How long is it going to take? What if it's forever? Why are you so insecure?" Stuff like that. It was like talking in a circle. I felt a lot of anger from her, a lot of resentment... and when she said, "You're going to be insecure about this stuff forever" I said, "if that's how you really feel then you need to find someone other than me to do this with." She does a good job making me feel like it's all my fault, which hell, I'm the one who needed a break, and why do I need a break? Because this isn't fun for me right now for various reasons. So it really is my fault. I told her that if our roles were reversed right now and she came to me and said, "I need a break" that I would've looked at her, grabbed her by the hand and said, "we will take a break for as long as you need and we will work on whatever you need to work on" and I wouldn't be angry about it, I wouldn't be resentful. It's hard to reconnect with someone who doesn't really seem like she want to reconnect. We were super close when we started this adventure not that long ago, had ups and downs... this, however, is a low point. This down is affecting our marriage a lot and she's laying the blame in my lap. Regardless, she said, "FINE! We'll take a break. We'll work on whatever you need to work on. We'll 'reconnect' and take however fucking long you want...." It's better than nothing I guess, lol.
  7. First of all thank you for paying attention and remembering. That means a lot. We had another melt-down last night. This time however, that other couple was here with the kids just hanging out and having fun (I've been trying to emphasize to all of them that we get back to the friendship thing and put the sexual aspect on hold... for who knows how long). The female half of this couple is a lot like me in the emotions she has about swinging and in general, for the most part she sees things through almost the same exact lens that I do. When the two of them (my wife and her) had a lot to drink and started talking about some of the issues and my wife did that thing she does where she gets really myopic and starts thinking unilaterally the female half got pissed. And instead of backing down (I get tongue tied when my wife gets angry with me... hell, ask me to save someone's life in a crisis situation and I can facilitate a scenario like I was born to it, ask me to make myself clear with my wife when she's pissed at me? not so much) the female half lit into her. It got to a point, after they cooled down, where I was able to share a lot more of my concerns for all of us and what this is doing to our marriage, our friendship and everything. The only problem was that my wife was quite drunk and I'm trying to gauge how much of the "awesome" conversation we all had she actually remembers. Obviously I'm ok putting the sexual stuff on hold, the female half is perfectly fine with it because she's been dealing with a lot of the same emotions that I have, and he's ok with it because he knows what's most important, my wife... not sure yet.
  8. It gave me pause a while ago. I've tried to help her see that, but at this point the selfishness of "I've always wanted to do this" keeps getting in the way. The only thing I can do is be around when she hopefully does see it.
  9. I've asked everyone to slow down for a bit. I'm getting a quite a bit of flak from my wife and the other female for this. My wife is actually the one who seems to be the most upset by all of this. She's well aware of my concerns. And I've flat out told her that I'm not feeling very close to her and that that needs to change.
  10. We've been with this particular couple for a couple months now. They've been friends of ours since the late 90's but we kinda lost touch a few years ago until earlier this year and then things took a turn towards swinging (my wife was throwing out "polyamory" for a while too, but I've put the kibosh on that, I'm not interested in that). First let me pose a question: have you ever been in a situation where multiple people are involved and you feel like you're the only one who is objectively able to take a step back and look at the big picture and see that there is a problem? I feel like that guy. I feel like ever since we introduced the sexual element into our relationship that a number of things have happened. Here's a few things (in no particular order of importance). 1-I feel like most recently our friendship is becoming strained. -My wife is very frustrated with the female half of the other couple. We are their first (they're our second). Hell, I'm kinda frustrated with her too. She's full of double standards for her husband. She can do all sorts of things, but he really can't. My wife hates that. My wife is kinda lumping me into that "double standard" mix too for some reason, but there was only one thing I did that was remotely close to that and I apologized for that. -Before the sexual element was introduced we used to go hangout for hours and hours and it felt like minutes... that's gone away. I don't know if it was the sexual element that's ruining that, or if it's just "newness" wearing off. -Female half feels like a lot of our focus in this is my wife, which is probably true... my wife is a very strong very forceful personality, it's really hard NOT to focus a lot of attention on her. -He has recently started calling me "quirky" because when we're all together I vacillate, apparently, between being really into his wife and then not. I don't see it but according to my wife "everyone sees it." Is it weird that I feel like when we're together they're all expecting that we "act" like we're married to the other person? Cause that's what I feel like a lot of times. I've told them all before that I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in the friendship, the sexual element is secondary to all that, but I feel that the sexual element is kind of taking over the relationship... that turns me off, big time. My big answer to the vacillation thing is that I'm not married to her, I'm married to my wife. She's who I'd rather be with. 2-I feel like my wife and I aren't as close as we were. -She's angry with me a lot lately, and most of the anger centers around various aspects of our relationship with this other couple. There have been a couple times since we started this with them that my wife has actually gotten physically violent with me when I've tried to point certain things out to her (not a big deal, she's 4'11" and all of about 110 pounds soaking wet, I'm nearly 6' and 190 pounds of a lot of muscle mass with a martial arts background and I can take a hit just fine). Here's how it was a big deal though, in 15 years of being with her she has NEVER been physically violent with me and it scared and scares the shit out of me. -Our sex life before starting the sexual element with this couple was AMAZING, it sucks now. -When we started talking about this lifestyle we introduced a level of communication that we have never had before and it was great... it's gone now. I can barely even open my mouth about any of my concerns without her closing off and getting extremely angry with me. 3-I feel like the "relationship" that the 3 of them want is overtaking our lives and I feel like a villain because I'm the one who keeps pushing back on that. 4-This isn't fun for me anymore. I don't get turned on by hearing her or seeing her with someone else. I was able to for a while but when they all started talking about "sharing our lives together forever"... yeah, no. That doesn't do anything for me except reinforce the old fears I thought I no longer had about my wife not really wanting to be with me. I told her last night that we need to "change" something. That maybe we can take turns or something. She and him go first, the female half and I go second or whatever... and then we reconnect afterwards. She didn't like that very much... but here's what happens now when I see her or hear her with him... mr. whiskers takes a nose dive. I no longer find it enjoyable. She wants to be able to do MFM with him and I don't think I can do that, not because I don't want to, but because I don't think I can physically do it at this time. I don't want to sleep overnight with someone else. I really just want to share that part of my life with my wife. Could there ever be times when we throw out hall-passes or something where we spend the night occasionally? Yes. But in the last few months we've spent multiple nights either in the same room in a different bed, in a different room, in different places, overnight. Without fail I will wake up at least 2-3 times, my heart pounding, feeling like I'm having a heart attack (just a panic attack) reaching for my wife and finding someone else beside me. I don't like it. I told my wife last night that when we're done I'd like to be able to go back to bed with her... she wasn't happy with that, and I really don't understand why. I told her I kinda liked it how we did it with the first couple we were into, where they come over or we go over, do our thing and then re-connect afterwards with each other. We don't "reconnect" at all with this couple. I feel like once we introduced sexuality into our friendship that that also brought in a lot of drama, a lot of anger and resentment, a lot of confusion, and a lot of line blurring. She has admitted to "falling in love" with them, but has also stated that it's a completely different kind of love than she has for me which is true. I'm not worried about her leaving me for him or them. It breaks down like this: my main focus in all of this is her and my relationship; the other couple's main focus is them and their relationship; my wife's main focus is the relationship between all 4 of us. Edited to add: my wife has admitted that in all of this her biggest fear is that I'll take it all away from her.
  11. We've been getting to know this couple for a long time... well we contacted them back in November (when I was still pretty iffy about this life-style), so long but no long. I've made it a point to have some daily contact with them and I see him on a regular basis. I was thinking about the alcohol thing the other day and I realized that my wife and I have mixed drinking with sex maybe 3 times in the 13 years we've been together, and one of those times she was the one who was super drunk and I had to drive home so I hadn't had anything to drink for about 3 hours (that was fun... that was the night she told me, very loudly, that she really really wanted to try an MFM). Next time no alcohol. I'm trying to plan a quick get together (3-4 hours in a couple fridays), and I've been regularly trying to visualize my wife with him; I'm anticipating things will go smoothly.
  12. If I remember correctly when I came here the first time after my wife initiated the conversation about wanting to get into this lifestyle I asked similar questions about protocol. Every situation is different. My wife and I have had those conversations... a lot since then. And the couple we've been hooking up with is a very cool, very understanding couple (something similar happened to him during his first time playing with my wife). We've been talking to both of them about things. As much as I hate it, they all (my wife included) have been handling me with kid gloves cause they don't want to push me too far to fast and while I hate it, I appreciate it a lot. I've changed a lot since the first time my wife said, "I think we should get into swinging." I said "absolutely always play together!" "No hallpasses EVER!" and a bunch of other stupid stuff. Now I'm considering, based on this particular couple and how much they respect each other and respect us, hall-passes, plus my wife knows me pretty damn well and she thinks it would help me get more comfortable when we get into a play situation. I appreciate the feedback, lionheart72
  13. I'm inclined to think that the majority of my issue is comfort. I mean, what do I do, how do I do it? Can I just walk into the house and start making out with her? (I know, every couple is different) what's appropriate? Even though this is a lot of fun and my wife and I are having a great time, I'm still not nearly as relaxed or comfortable as, I guess, I think I am. Mrs. idon'tknow thinks the other mrs and I need a hall-pass to get more comfortable with each other, and when we do play together that the other mrs and I play first, and then she and him play second (taking turns) and that the more I hear it the more comfortable with it I'll be. Lucky for us we're hooking up with a couple that's more concerned with our friendship than with sex, I don't know if that's a norm or not, but it's certainly helpful to me. Here's what I want: I want to be more comfortable. I want to be more relaxed. I want it to be like the first time I played with her where I made her soak her couch. I want to hear my wife with another guy and I want it to be arousing. I know, the things I want seem to me to be more of "give it some time" kinda thing... except maybe the couch thing... I'll give it some time, and play more, and have fun. Not gonna obsess about it.
  14. So. First off I need to change my name from "idon'tknow" to "thisisprettycool" or something like that cause we've have a few encounters and had a pretty good time. Friendship, sex, hanging out, food, booze and generally a lot of fun. BUT I had an issue last night... an erection issue.... I've read through some of the threads so yeah, relaxing, testosterone (I'm 35, about 10-12% body fat, I'm in better shape now as a 35 year old then I was as an 18 year old, heavy weights, lots of exercise and I do take a couple test-boosters to supplement my workouts) and yeah, when I'm with the wife it's not an issue, in fact Mr. Winky stays hard even after ejaculation... long after (I timed it once for the hell of it, an hour and fifteen minutes after ejaculation she finally had to say it was time for bed). I am fixed and haven't had to wear condoms for the past 5 years though, and that has been an issue, but minor. My wife has been more than happy to help me practice getting used to condoms again. Last night we were playing, having fun, my wife and the other guy were upstairs, me and a smoking-hot redhead were downstairs. Doors closed, having fun, separate rooms, I get the condom on I'm going in and (this is where it seems different than the other ones) I hear my wife moaning loud, something I love about making love to her, but apparently last night I didn't. My penis went from hard enough to cut diamonds to soft enough to sleep on in a matter of seconds. Fortunately the smoking red-head was very very understanding, we still played, still had fun but I was pretty embarrassed and quite frustrated actually. So what gives? I know I need to relax more and in retrospect I'm still not nearly as relaxed in these situations as I should and could be, and that will come with time, but still... I never thought I'd have to look a beautiful woman in the eyes and say "I'm sorry, this has never happened before." And what gives with it happening when I heard my wife moaning? I'm happy for her, and I want her to get her rocks off and have mind-numbing sex with me and with other people, but seriously it was like someone flipped a switch. It did happen before too, but by the time I heard her me and the other woman had already been at it for about an hour and I was about spent. what do I do? How do I get over this? I do not want to be in the middle of something again and go from a rockhard to flopping around like a fish. It sucked.
  15. 10/4 good buddy. The text thing was a miscommunication (one of not as many as it may seem), we were both on the same page; when we were talking about it, however, we were just talking about different parts of the page so to speak. I know I'm not ready, but I like how we're approaching this and she's being very patient and willing to sit down, hold my hand and talk with me about my fears and our goals, and the other couple that we're talking with has been very supportive and very understanding (we have no intention of doing anything with them right now other than be friends, not only are they fine with that, they prefer it like that anyway). Between the female half (the male half occasionally too) talking with me and being very understanding and my wonderful wife doing the same I think this is something that we have to at least try. Other than that the sex has been mind-altering and the intimacy has been amazing. We bought the book too, but I'll be darned if every time we go to bed we're too exhausted (ahem) to do anything other than sleep.
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