GFE - Prostitution In The Lifestyle, Part II

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by singleagain

Thank you spoomonkey ad tybeeswing for such great posts.

You're welcome! I think it must have been the longest post I've ever written. Sorry for the length, but there was so much to reply to!

Even though I obviously haven't agreed with your method of having your escort act as if she were your girlfriend in order for you to gain access to other people sexually, I have a strong feeling that at heart, you are a man of integrity. I can see this in how you ended your last post, too. I'm glad that you're considering the feelings of others in the Lifestyle. With all that's wrong with the world, whenever we have a chance to demonstrate honesty and integrity through our own actions and dealings with people - even as swingers in the lifestyle - someone's faith in humanity can be restored, a little bit. And we can respect ourselves.

We are all only as good as our word.

Originally Posted by singleagain

But I do firmly believe that no matter what lifestyle one chooses treating others with respect is paramount.

I truly believe this, too. See, we probably have a lot in common!

[sereneiders]

singleagain

I have the impression that something in this thread touches some fiber on you. From what you're saying, it seems pretty obvious that you relationship with this scort is far from being "typical", thus, becoming an exception of the question adressed in the first place. So I am asking myself, why are you compelled to bring your story here to defend a point of view based on your exceptional case?

It's not that I deem your point of view wrong, nor that I critisize your participation in the discussion. I am fine with that. But it still calls my attention.

I wonder if there could be something else going on here: that you may be developing feelings for this exceptional escort, and this thread could made you face some colliding emotions or thoughts you may have, regarding the fact that you meet her as an escort and you still keep playing the escort/customer roles even when for you, or for both of you, the relationship may be going beyond the escort/customer "typical" roles.

As if you were needing to "legitimate" this relationship inside the swingers community once they bring a subjet able to threaten your right to stand behind this relationship and keep making it grow. See what I mean?

The problem is, not all the escorts and prostitutes behaves the same way, not all of them have the same values, not all of them even understands (nor needs to understand) the values shared by this community, and because of all of this, most of the times they participate in a "swinging" activity imposes some eventual threat for the "legit" swingers couples. Since "legit" couples needs to avoid drama and preserve their relationships, we expect the other parties to have about the same expectations and about the same risks we have. For example, a playmate missbehavior may lead to a problem for us, our missbehavior may lead to a problem for our playmates, so the need to avoid problems makes us aware of the missbehaviors, but if for a playmate a missbehavior is something he/she's used to because of his/her profession, we're entitled to doubt about the way he/she valuates his/her behavior.

However, in your very case, it seems to me that your partner valuates you personally and/or as a customer (I cannot evaluate this), making she aware of the "missbehavior" problem inside the lifestyle as to make her a "safer enough" playmate for others.

In fact, you could see this relationship as something more than a mere commercial transaction, and this alone should be enough to make you feel it as a "legit" relationship (and not only FOR the rest of the lifestylers). For example, a guy could be married (or in an stable relationship) with an escort, and be ok about what she does to have an income. Should they swing, would this lady deserve to be treated as "the typical prostitute" for the sake of this thread discussion? I believe she shouldn't.

For a deception to happen, you should be aware of it. If you're deceiving yourself unconciously, no one should blame on you if he/she becomes aware of the deception. A lot of marriages (notoriously in the vanilla world) have relationships in where they deceive themselves: if the wife cheats on the guy, he may be deceiving herself just because he didn't notice the cheat, nor the facts leading the wife to cheat on him. Should this coulple be swingers who play in a close circle as to enjoy unprotected sex in a controlled environment, this wife behavior would be deceiving for the rest of the group as well. Should they blame on the husband if they find out she cheats on him?

So, I believe you have to make up your mind about this relationship you have with this escort. If you honestly believe there is more going on than the commercial transaction (a transaction that, ultimatelly and from your own words, doesn't seems to differ too much from the one you could find inside some marriage where the guy supports his wife and her kids from a previous marriage), then you wouldn't deceive anyone if introducing her as your "couple" (she'd be the one deceiving them if she, honestly, doesn't see you the same way). To be fair, WHEN it matters (because you know it is a concern), you should tell your couple is also an escort... for their customers, not being you a customer.

So the question is.... so far, are you a customer or not? And I believe your need to discuss your situation in this thread could be disclussing your own problem to answer this question.

What do you think?

[singleagain]

tybeeswing, we probably do have a lot in common. The greatest freedom in the world is the freedom to be ones own self without apology to anyone. Being open and upfront allows us to do that.

While I believe what I do in the lifestyle is perfectly ok, I also know that my church friends would have the same feelings for me that many swingers would have if either side discovered the lady on my arm was a paid professional escort. I am faced everyday with the necessity to be honest and ethical while at the same time to be comfortable in my own skin, so to speak.

The thing this thread has exposed to me and hopefully to others as well is this: in an imperfect world, its particularly hard to be completely open with everyone about everything. In short, what may be perfectly OK for some will be offensive to others. As a Christian I am to offend no one...at best a very hard thing to accomplish. Our opinions about others and what they choose to do is biased by our own belief system. The standards by which all of us should conduct ourselves is not always so straight forward. If this were not the case there would be no arguments, no fights, no divorce, no green eyed monster creating enormous conflicts. In short, we could all "just get along" together. And that, my friend, would make for a very dull existence, wouldn't it?

I believe sincerely that our creator wants us to enjoy life. He means for us to have life partners but I cannot believe he restricts sexual activity for procreation alone. He made it feel too good to do for that purpose only. Good, clean sex shared with great friends is just as much fun (if not more so) as any other activity people can share.

Two of my favorite stories in the "swingers stories" section are http://www.swingersboard.com/forums/article.php?a=309 and http://www.swingersboard.com/forums/article.php?a=308. They show unselfishness and a genuine desire to help others while at the same time experiencing great pleasure for self as well.

If swinging is all about my own pleasure at other's expense then I want no part of it. That's why it must be an activity shared among people of like minds. It is sincerely not my intention to deceive anyone and yet I find that any action I take will always affect some in a way they do feel deceived.

I guess all of us may have some skeletons in our closet, some beliefs others don't share and some desires that do not clik with others. Swinging is an adult activity that should remain among adults and it is my considered opinion that there will always be a risk involved of some kind. But then so is any other activity in which we partake. If my "escort" and I were to meet you in an enviorn other than this one, we would appear to be happy and content, appreciative of each other and others and great fun to be with in any venu. I trust that you and yours, who ever you may be are too.

Serinaders...you make some very good points...

[Tybee Swing]

Hi singleagain,

Something you just said made me curious...can I ask another question? I know I've had a lot of them.

Originally Posted by singleagain

It is sincerely not my intention to deceive anyone and yet I find that any action I take will always affect some in a way they do feel deceived.

Really? Why? I understand (of course) that when it comes to church folk, our children, and many others who need not be any part of what we do in our private sex lives, less is more and there is no purpose in disclosing our deeply personal, sexual issues with parties such as these.

But, when it comes to people within the Lifestyle, especially the ones we may be having sex with, why will any action you take make people feel deceived?

Originally Posted by singleagain

I guess all of us may have some skeletons in our closet, some beliefs others don't share and some desires that do not clik with others. Swinging is an adult activity that should remain among adults and it is my considered opinion that there will always be a risk involved of some kind. But then so is any other activity in which we partake.

Originally Posted by singleagain

If my "escort" and I were to meet you in an enviorn other than this one, we would appear to be happy and content, appreciative of each other and others and great fun to be with in any venu.

I have no doubt about that!

[sereneiders]

I'll drift a little bit here, if you indulge me.

All of this reminds me of this guy, a psychiatrist who's also a theatre actor, director and writter, who likes to trace analogies between psycology and the stage. He says something much like the following:

We're mere players of a piece. Each one of us have his/her own script, we repeat it over and over. From time to time, what we do, what we say, following our own script, meets what someone else does and say by following his/her own script, in such a way that it seems to make sense for some viewer (even ourselves), providing the illusion that we're relating ourselves. If both scripts correlates, making sense, for long enough, we say we have a relationship with someone... even when both parties are just reading and repeating their own scripts.

This is a thrilling, very provoking analogy for me.

In one hand, I can correlate (myself) with the "we repeat ourselves over and over". We learn our own ways to protect ourselves, developing behavioral patterns we attempt to apply and reuse in every new situation we face, we stick to those patterns for as long as they're usefull and we feel confortable enough with them, and we get used to those patterns to the point that they provide "facilitated ways" we follow unconciously, in an attempt to make the world around us stick to our own ways, even when it becomes impossible to achieve. A lot of our suffering comes from this, most of our obsessions comes from this, even fetishes comes from sticking to some image or sensation that once gave us pleasure, and we reinforce our hability to squeeze more pleasure from this while disregarding other ways to get pleasure. Ultimatelly, we grow when something prevent us from being able to apply our well known patterns, forcing us to try some new approach.

This applies here. We're swingers, we have a pretty usefull set of rules allowing us to get the pleasure we pursuit while protecting ourselves. Concepts like deception and the need to avoid it has to do with the way we like the world around us to stick to our own behavioral patterns. We also threasure other things like love and sexual freedom, and the prostitution history resembles a lot of what we attempt to avoid: from the hypocrecy of having "good" women (mothers, sisters, daughters and wifes) who aren't entitled to be lustfull and owe their own sexuality and those "bad" ones (the whores) who fulfill the lust the men are entitled to enjoy, to the inherent deceiving ways coming from this hypocrecy, since the "bad" women aren't entitled to develop feelings nor to be loved.

Most women, even inside the lifestyle, when attempting to regain the control for her own sexuality, still needs to do it separating her own image from the whore public image, as to ensure they still deserve to be loved. Hence, allowing a protitute to share their sexuality imposes a threat for them, the risk of being perceived the same way, as someone who doesn't deserve love. And I am not talking about the cold hearted thinking of it, but about those behavioral patterns, about the sciript each women follows, an script with the minimal changes required as to entitle them to enjoy their sexuality while still allowing them to be part of our society as a "good" women.

Singleagain's particular case is provoking because he's showing us a professional who also seems to be someone deserving love... even when everithing else paradigmatically tells us she doesn't. If we're not up to play with a couple like Singleagain and his escort, it isn't because of the risk of deception, but because it would prevent us to apply our patterns, to repeat ourselves. Because it makes us face other horizonts.

It seems to me that being swingers doesn't necesarily makes us less hypocrital, and here I mean, the "glitch" in our behavioral patterns, those morals we learn from kids, comming from our culture, that we made part of our patterns as to socially "behave well enough", like "good" boys and girls, by saying what's politically right (or avoiding to challenge what's politically right, just to fit), even when by swinging we're not socially "behaving so well" and we're not seen as "good" as we KNOW we are. The pattern makes us fit by pointing our finger to the "politically wrong" ones as to divert the attention from us, which is the source for the discrimination: we're "good" not because of our worth, but because we're able to find out someone worst, "less good" than ourselves, to be compared against.

We dislike to play with prostitutes because of the deception, indeed. But because of the deception about ourselves. We may attempt to put prostitutes on trial, but the fact is, by allowing prostitutes to play with us, we're putting ourselves on trial, and this is what we hate.

In the other hand, from what this guy says, if we look at our relationships as the illusions comming from the way our scripts interacts, Singleagain relationship isn't necesarily "less ilussory" than our relationship with our spouses. It is true, he's with an escort, he may be paying for an illusion, but as he keep doing it with the same escort, moreover if we consider her as someone who deserves love, and if she consider she deserve love, and if she perceive the way Singlegain appreciates her, this relationship becomes as "honest" as the next, even more when they're aware of the illusion as an illusion, when for most of us, married guys, we dislike to even ponder our relationship as an illusion. This collides big time with the whole romantic paradigm we've grown with, from what we was taught and to the silver screen.

And, what was a marriage along history, but the exchange of a womb as a resource, by other economical resources? Even today a marriage carries all the trading implications from the eldest times: a change of last name, a ring, the joining of the respective families belongings, someone supports the other and the developing family as a duty, and sex becomes also a marriage duty: the exchange of money for sex. All of this coated by a pink layer of paint since the romanticism.

As we break with most of the paradigms of how a marriage is supposed to behave by means of swinging, we jeopardize the entire romantic paradigm (which doesn't means we're less loving, nor less beloving people). We deprive the building from some of it grounds because it allows us to enjoy swinging, and we need to be skillfull enough to hold the entire building in balance over a pin head... and the whole "prostitution" subject threates this pin head healthy.

Could we admit we're all whores? That we all need money to live, we all need to improve our wellfare, we all crave for pleasure, we all are lustfull, and the only difference is that we portrait ourselves as the "politically right" guys while the "official" whores are portrayed BY US as the "politically wrong" ones, just because they make us face that... we all need money to live, we all need to improve our wellfare, we all crave for pleasure, and we all are lustfull.

[singleagain]

tybeeswing asked: "But, when it comes to people within the Lifestyle, especially the ones we may be having sex with, why will any action you take make people feel deceived?

Sometimes in my ramblings I don't come across clearly. For that shortcoming I can only offer apologies and attempt to explain. I was speaking generally, not specifically when I said "yet I find that any action I take will always affect some in a way they do feel deceived." What I mean by that is, generally speaking, I can never satisfy everyone because it is difficult to find two people who are absolutely on the same page.

I have a friend who was an avowed homo-sexual. His lifestyle offended many people and was exactly what many others liked about him. He made a decision to discontinue all homo-sexual activity and got married and has kids. Now many of the people who admired and agreed with him are offended and many who were previously offended are now openly supportive of him. His one great frustration in life is an inate inability to please everyone. I suppose that most everyone has felt this kind of frustration in some segment of their existence, don't you?

I have a dog. I like him. But when he bites me he offends me. I guess somehow I must have offended him which caused him to react in that offensive way. He is my "best friend", yet and still somehow I find ways to offend him which is never my intention.

I know in the lifestyle that not everyone swings the same way. So sometimes, I get offended and sometimes they get offended. It is never the intention on either part, yet it does happen.

The simple result of someone finding out something about someone else that they find offensive is often considered deceptive. And in the same vein, deception is always offensive. So, any given action either you or I may take, may or may not be offensive to any particular person. Hopefully all this makes sense.

[Tybee Swing]

That made perfect sense to me, singleagain. I agree with you, we can't please everyone, so why even try? We can just respect the differences, be true to ourselves, stand by what we believe in, and let the chips fall where they may.

[Mr. Truelove]

Singleagain

I'm catching this thread late it would appear, but I couldn't help to chime in as I feel very strongly about this topic.

It's obvious from this thread that many people here would not want to swing with an escort, I am going to make a generalization that most everyone wouldn't want to either. Yet you continue to deceive them. It is not very christian like which you claim to practice.

I've read your counters to these concerns but what I don't understand is how little you can care for the people you play with. Are they pieces of meat to you? I have no doubt in my mind that an individual that truly cared for other people would make it known that they would be playing with an escort even without being asked.

You said, "But I do firmly believe that no matter what lifestyle one chooses treating others with respect is paramount."

That should include respecting their wishes. You aren't reflecting that with your actions so far. I hope that you change this aspect of yourself, and give the rest of us the respect that most (or at least me) would love to return.

Mr. Truelove

[sereneiders]

Mr. Truelove,

It also called my attention the amount of energy Singleagain put on this thread. If he were the way you're portraying him, he wouldn't even care to argue, and less to disclose here his "deceiptfull" activity.

My gusts tells me he may be having his own conflicts about this. From the way he speaks about his "escort", he may be seeking for approval for his relationship from the people whose oppinion he cares about: the people he meets at the club, represented by this forum community.

I've made a long post where I approach the hypocrecy, being myself one of those who wouldn't play with prostitutes, even when I would need such a long discussion with someone like Singleagain before giving they a try (so, I included myself as an hypocrit here). And I believe we protect ourselves by means of stepping over Sincleagan toes, even when we're depriving him from any chance to stand upon this relationship that seems so ood just because the lady is an escort.

Let him talk, please.

[Mr. Truelove]

By all means I value his opinion. And I agree it was great to read posts he took the time to write.

If I gave the impression I was trying to tell him to be quiet, then that was a mistake. However, I do think he has been deceptive in this case. If you are still unclear I can show examples in his posts. And I still stand by my post that he shouldn't be withholding the information that he is playing with an escort as his "other".
It's pretty obvious from the responces here that it's something that people wouldn't expect to happen, wouldn't think to ask, and wouldn't want to be involved in. He should respect that.

Mr. Truelove

[singleagain]

Deception: Deception is the covert manipulation of perception to alter thoughts, feeling, or beliefs.

It is not my intent to ever deceive anyone. When my "escort" and I go to a club we are not on a covert mission to manipulate any person's perception. We simply go there to have a good time. Sometimes that good time is having a drink, a good convesation with like minded people and observing the fun others are having. Other times we engage in sexual play between just ourselves and in-frequently we are asked to join with others in their play time. In conversation with others many times the subject of how each of us earns our living will come up. Not once have we ever lied about either of our professions. I cannot recall even one instance where we have been turned down solely on the basis that she is an escort. Several times other couples, after learning what she does, have been insistent that we should go to a room and commence playing immediately. Once we did. Most of the time we are much more selective about the people we play with and we will wait till we are more comfortable before making a decision.

Now things might be different if I pre-determined to lie about the circumstances of our relationship. Then I truly would be trying to deceive others.

For all of those who have taken an interest in this thread started by spoomonkey, ask yourself this question: How open have I been in conversations about my private life? Is there something I don't want others to know about me and my partner that I am willing to hide at any cost? Would I be embarressed if someone found out the complete truth after I had answered a question with an ommission or a half-truth?

Human nature is what it is. It will never change and most of us are not brave enough to come clean on everything. I once asked a gentleman if he had ever had a sexually transmitted disease. He said no. Through other sources I knew without doubt that he was lying. I did not challenge him, but suddenly my partner and I developed simultaneous head aches and excused ourselves. Which of us was the greater deceiver?

Mr. Truelove, I would never attempt to deceive you. If I were to meet you at your favorite club, however, how would I even know who you are? Have you appeared in court and requested a legal name change or were your parents also named Truelove? It is my honest opinion that the entire swinging community continually engages in deception in an attempt to remain anonomous at the very least. Please don't think I would shun you without reason, but if you met us without knowing that I was the poster in this thread and you desired to play with us, we would turn you down. And be sure, if I were ever to visit a club in Ft. Wayne I would surely ask every male I talked to if he were Mr. Truelove. Oh, it would not be your looks or your sexual prowress I would reject. It simply would be your attitude. I may never have the opportunity to meet the other more gentlemanly and lady like people who have participated in this discussion but their manner of discussion would never be something that would turn my interest in other directions.

No apology is needed and none is expected for the way in which you judged my intentions.

[Mr. Truelove]

Originally Posted by singleagain

In any case, for the ones who have asked how I met her, we have been forthcoming. But, as I suspect most swingers practice, we have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

I'll use this tidbit as an example of what I call deception. You agreed in another post that the majority of swingers would have reservations about playing with a couple that included a paid escort. Here:

Originally Posted by singleagain

"While I believe what I do in the lifestyle is perfectly ok, I also know that my church friends would have the same feelings for me that many swingers would have if either side discovered the lady on my arm was a paid professional escort. "

and

Originally Posted by singleagain

I believe that many couples in the Lifestyle would take offense to learning they've just had sex with a prostitute, as opposed to an actual couple like themselves."

So knowing that "most" swingers would have issues with it. You still keep a don't ask, don't tell, policy. Do you truly expect people to include the "Is she a paid escort?" into the conversation when meeting couples? I think this alone could be considered deception, and at the very least you should be more forthcoming about this issue.

This is an example of not being forthcoming about it...

Originally Posted by singleagain

Just as I don’t tell people up front that I suffer from psoriases (a non-contagious skin condition that I have under control), I don’t tell people what I do to earn an income which is in the mid 6 figure range. Nor do I volunteer that she is a paid escort. Why? Because she doesn’t act like one when she is with me. "

So I think the difference in my opinion to yours is that you think as long as you don't actually straightforward lie to someone, then you are being honest. I think that if you can anticipate that someone will not like the arrangement, yet you let it continue anyway, that you are being deceptive.

Is that not an accurate assessment of the situation?

I know that so many quotes will make it look like I am trying to pick your posts apart. But I really am not intending to do so. Rather, I am trying to relay the feel I get from your postings about where I think you are being rather deceptive even if you are not actually "lieing".

Mr. truelove

[clutch]

Prostitution (aka the world's oldest profession) has been around since Eve (or at least one of her daughters--real or metaphorical). It's not going anywhere. Swinging, I'm guessing, has been around just about as long.

I don't think legalizing it is going to make any difference regarding swinging (or anything else for that matter). If a swinging couple actually wanted to hire a prostitute, no one's stopping them.

My personal experience with prostitutes (2), years and years ago, has been dismal.

There is no love, no feeling, no lust (at least on the prostitute's part). To me it was more like masturbating using another person, which, to me, was a real turn off.

I am not anti-prostitutes, here. It just does nothing to float my boat.

To me, prostitution is raw, unflavored gruel, while swinging is a king's banquet, rich with color, feelings, love, desire, and satisfaction.

[sereneiders]

I know no few women in the lifestyle who actually lies about her age, even couples who lies about their ages, for example, in ads or chat rooms. They do it in order to improve their chances to meet other people that otherwise could not want to meet them if they knew their real age. And they do it because they know that, once meeting these people, no one will care about the age and they can seduce them anyway.

Aren't they deceiptive? Does this deception deserve to hang them by their neck at the club entrance to teach a lesson to the rest of the swingers community? And now, seriously, what's that making some deception more severe than other, when no harm has been done?

We've meet a lot of courples at the club, and I am pretty sure that there are couples claiming to be married people when they're not (in fact, we say we're married for the sake of simplification, even when we're not, but we're living togheter since around 15 years by now... so, I guess we're a deceptive couple). The fact is, it isn't my business to know wheter they're married or not, wheter they have a good marriage or not, and even wheter they're married because of an economical interest that wouldn't differ too much from the customer/escort scenario. All I care is to have fun and to avoid harming ourselves and others in the process. We take the measures we need to feel someone is a safer playmate, while some people wouldn't play with someone at the club, just because they need to "prescreen" people as to feel safer enough.

So, we're lustfull and lazy, we want it to happen, and we want it now. Should we blame on others for our lack of ability to prescreen someone fast enough? Wouldn't we indulge some deceptions (like the age one, like the brunnete inking her hair as a blonde, the sylicone aided sticky boobs, or the viagra aided dick)? If so... what happens to US able to be less indulgent with other deceptions?

Of course, it isn't the same the guy hiring the prostitute in the corner to test the lifestyle waters, than someone who swung as a couple before and hire the same escort in a regular basis to be part of the game. The former guys hardly would be able to behave the way we expect a couple to do, while with the seconds we could hardly tell the difference if they doesn't tell us.

So, what makes this deception so severe?

It could be a male ego fact, if we seens this ad bringing OUR wife to the club and LEND it to some other guy who's suppose to LEND us HIS wife... when in fact he's not lending us anything belonging to him, but a mere cheap toy who doesn't deseve better than our wives.

It could be the female ego part (as I said before), since our wives are "good" girls prettending to be "bad" ones for a little while, being the only difference between the "good" and the "bad" ones the money exchange, and that the "good" ones deserve better than the "bad" ones.

It isn't about the way this guy and/or his scort deceive us, but about how our activities can be so easily pegged with the ones from a prostitute, and our own need to preserve our self image, which ultimatelly means, to avoid deceiving ourselves.

[acheron823]

In My Case, I Have Seen Prostitution In The Swing Clubs Already, On A Limited Basis.. I Believe Legalization Would Flood Them With It, And Destroy The Atmosphere/scene For The Rest Of Us