GFE - Prostitution In The Lifestyle, Part II

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by singleagain

There are several advantages for me as well. I'll leave all of them to your imaganation as I can see the flames coming now, anyway.

Hi singleagain,

I'm not going to flame you. Personally, I think it was very brave of you to share this information. I'm fascinated and curious - I don't think I've ever met or talked with a man who had an arrangement like this. Mind if I ask curious questions?

First, what are the several advantages to you that you mentioned? I know of course that admittance into the club on any night you want to go, and acceptance there as part of a "couple" are two of the reasons, of course. Then, there is the sex, of course. Are there any other advantages to you?

How did you become acquainted with your swing partner? Did she have a profile on one of the standard swinger/alternative lifestyle websites? Or, was it through a service? Or referred by a friend?

Originally Posted by singleagain

My "escort" has check-ups at her doctor's office every month, always uses condoms and sees a few select clients. I had to pass a serious back-ground check before she would even see me the first time.

She sounds more safety-oriented than any swingers I've met (especially the monthly testing, and requiring a background check before she'd even meet you).

Have you tried meeting single ladies who, just like yourself, want to enter or get back into swinging with a "friend", for free? Perhaps they have been widowed or divorced? (I know two committed couples who started that way.) I'm just curious if you've looked for a woman like that, or if you even would want to?

Originally Posted by singleagain

First, she gets to swing which she enjoys very much. Second she get the protection of a male escorting her so she doesn't worry about getting hit on by the dreaded "single guy".

#1 and #2 are benefits that a single, divorced or widowed lady would be interested in by connecting with a male friend to attend clubs as a couple, too. I'm fascinated that a prostitute has these same reasons for going in with you. In fact, I wonder why a prostitute would worry about getting hit on by a single man...isn't that what they do? (I'm not doubting you and I'm not being sarcastic - I'm sincerely asking.)

Originally Posted by singleagain

And third, she earns a sizable amount of money with which she supports herself and her infant daughter.

Is this her only means of income? How does she get away with it with the IRS, or when she needs to give evidence of income & employment (such as when applying for any sort of credit)?

Originally Posted by singleagain

I have been a swinger for almost 30 years and prior to my wife's demise I personally had never experienced the kind of rejection I get as a single guy, even by some of the same people we used to swing with.

Forgive me if the following assumption is wrong, but is your "friend" much, much younger than you are? (You were a swinger for 30 years prior; she has an infant.) Does her age impact your choice to bring her to the club with you as your "other half", so so speak? Other half of a swinging team, that is. Does it enable you to play with much younger couples that you might not hook up with, otherwise? Do you choose to pay a much younger woman over developing a non-paying friendship or relationship with a swinging lady closer to your age?

(I realize these are personal questions. Please don't take offense. I'm just very interested in this. I'm really looking forward to the answers and learning about this.)

Originally Posted by singleagain

With all that said, I think that allowing prostitution in a swingers club is generally a bad idea. With the exception of Nevada it would be illegal. That means police raids, arrests and public exposure for all included. Remember, we are in the minority. Most people think we are obssesive perverts.

I agree. People coming in working swing club patrons for money is a different situation from one man bringing in a prostitute as his "guest" and being discreet about it. Not that I'm personally on board with this, but yes, it's a very different thing.

I'm going to share how I'd feel in the shoes of the people you encounter in clubs. Please know this isn't intended to flame you. This is just me expressing how I feel about it, as a swinger.

I have to agree with Spoo and others - I believe that many couples in the Lifestyle would take offense to learning they've just had sex with a prostitute, as opposed to an actual couple like themselves. Even if the couple they've just been with is apparently "just dating" (not in a very serious relationship yet) or appears to be friends/swing partners (not for money), this is a big difference from the reality that this couple is a man and his paid escort. I know my husband and I would be very rattled by that, to say the least.

It does sound like you and the woman you bring with you actually like each other and enjoy each other's company a great deal. She's your "regular", you know her safety & check-up routine (very thorough; moreso than most swingers), and you know that she services only a select few clients. You know she requires extensive background checks of her clients (and I assume STD tests). You didn't just pick her up on a corner 10 minutes before you got to the club. Not that it would make a difference for me if I had this detailed information up front before we headed back to a room together...I'm just not 100% sure how I'd feel about sex with you two if I had all of the facts.

One thing I know for certain...I respect honesty a great deal, and being misled or deliberately deceived really pisses me off. If someone omits facts, stretches the truth, or lies to me for their own self-serving purposes, that's pure manipulation to me. I would feel very used because you went through all that charade just to score with me under false pretenses. I couldn't abide it. You and the prostitute have an honest relationship with each other; you both know what the deal is and what you're in it for. But, you wouldn't be giving your swing partners the same courtesy and respect.

Anyhow, I do admire the fact that you came out and talked about your arrangement on this board. It gives us a chance to hear from people whose situation isn't commonplace in swinging, and it's a chance to learn from you.

[Tybee Swing]

While I was typing my last post (long, I know), you were answering the others. I hope you don't mind my questions.

Originally Posted by singleagain

It is different, but let me say this...a female friend who met my escort friend along with her husband had her first ff experience with her. That was about three months ago and she hasn't come down from the highly charged experience yet. Says it was a great way to learn things bi and is grateful for the opportunity. The poor thing had been rejected by every woman at the club until we came along.

Very interesting. Was it just the two girls playing, or did you all four participate? What was your female friend's actual initial response, when she found out the true nature of your arrangement? What changed her mind and made her decide that she'd like to do this again (now that she's in the loop)?

Why did all the other women at the club reject your friend?

[curiousagain]

Originally Posted by singleagain

I am a single male. The new "friend" I have accompanies me to a couple of different clubs on occasion and we enjoy ourselves immensly. Prior to meeting her my trips to clubs were limited to certain nights and not much activity as I would be one of many average single males available to the few couples there. Let me hasten to add that I have been a swinger for almost 30 years and prior to my wife's demise I personally had never experienced the kind of rejection I get as a single guy, even by some of the same people we used to swing with. As soon as I showed up with a woman on my arm I was suddenly accepted again. All the clubs I attend have a "no prostitution" policy so I am very discrete and do not tell them that my new "friend" recevies several things of value for her time with me at the club.

I'm sorry being a SM in the lifestyle was so tough on you.
Need a T-Shirt? I've got a couple of extras if you need one. I'm not going to be the antagonist or protagonist either way on this, but in a nation that doesn't allow corking a bat or the use of performance enhancing steroids, I don't think the majority of swingers are going to be in your camp on this.

Part of the allure of swinging is pure sex/desire. I'm pretty active in the dating world and part of what you have to watch for is the dates who are looking for a breadwinner, shoulder to cry on, protector from the world, co-enabler, Father for their children, etc. In the swing world, if someone wants to have sex with me, I know it's because they find me sexually desirable. That's it, end of story. They don't care how much money I make, if I'm good with kids, my standing in the community, how large my house is, what kind of pets I own, etc. etc. etc. That is a turn on for me. If I thought a woman was being paid to have sex with me, it would be a turn off. Therein lies the problem. Even those who have no problem with her being a prostitute, might likely have a problem with feeling like she was being paid to have sex with them and/or their spouse.

[Mrs Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

Here is another question - and I do appreciate the gracious way that you answered the last one - as well as the undeserved compliment - all "exchange of monies" takes place away from the club, correct? While this may be a technicality, I would say that this does insulate the club from potential legal tangles (at least, I hope it does).

Someone else can correct me if I am wrong.

Actually this thread got my curiousity up so I went on a "short" search for clubs that we have either been too, or might go to and checked out their rules on this topic. (club names have been withheld to protect the innocent )

I'll apologize in advance to 'singleagain' since this isn't an attack just what I found out and what my thoughts are on it.

Club #1 No Member shall engage in prostitution and or be employed as an escort, or solicit sexual acts for money or receive money for any sexual act whatsoever. No member will encourage or request other Members to engage in such activities.

Club#2 No prostitution. Any exchange of money or valuables for sex or sexual favors is prostitution and will not be tolerated.

Club #3 NO PROSTITUTION OR ESCORTS PERMITTED AT ANYTIME.

Club #4 NO PROSTITUTION!
There will be no selling of services of any kind on the club premises. If caught soliciting, you will be removed from the club and the local authorities will be notified. Once you pay at the door, keep your money in your pockets.

Club #5 NO PROSTITUTION or ESCORTS


I found this very interesting and relevant to this thread. Clubs don't want it or allow it. Maybe they know something we don't. I don't necessarily have a problem about prostitution being legal, in fact, I sometimes think it would be good for the girls (safer) and the government could tax the hell out of the industry They tax every thing else that is a vice...alcohol, cigarettes, they even tax you when you get your hair and nails done now

I think though that if it was to be legalized then the "legalities" of it or the rules/regulations should keep it a separate entity (i.e. still can do it in a swing club). Swinging is a lifestyle different from just about everything else even prostitution. I personally don't want to find out, especially after we have played that Spoo was just with a prostitute. Can't give any definitive reason or answer for it other than I/we don't want to play that way. I don't think most swingers do (yes I am generalizing) based on the fact that clubs don't want it even if it is an escort and the money has been exchanged prior to arrival.

Mrs Spooomonkey

[good times]

Originally Posted by curiousagain

Part of the allure of swinging is pure sex/desire. I'm pretty active in the dating world and part of what you have to watch for is the dates who are looking for a breadwinner, shoulder to cry on, protector from the world, co-enabler, Father for their children, etc. In the swing world, if someone wants to have sex with me, I know it's because they find me sexually desirable. That's it, end of story. They don't care how much money I make, if I'm good with kids, my standing in the community, how large my house is, what kind of pets I own, etc. etc. etc. That is a turn on for me. If I thought a woman was being paid to have sex with me, it would be a turn off. Therein lies the problem. Even those who have no problem with her being a prostitute, might likely have a problem with feeling like she was being paid to have sex with them and/or their spouse.

Wow, this thread has taken a fascinating turn and in a direction that I have some experience with so I have some comments to add that actually apply to a lot of the posts above, but one of the main things is to address what curiousagin hit on here.

People often have the missconception that a prostitute, because she has sex for a living would not enjoy purely recreation sex just like anyone else. While I understand how someone could make that assumption I can tell you that it is an incorrect one. I think because prostitution is legal in Nevada it is much easier for them to admit what they do for a living than it might be elsewhere. For that reason I know a few legal Nevada prostitutes that are regular attendees of the clubs here. One of the things I have noticed about them is that, like the way we separate sex and love, they are very good at separating sex for fun and sex for a living. The former is the same as it is for anyone of us, in the latter case one must keep in mind that what they do for a living is what their clients want, what they want never enters the picture when they are working. So when they are having sex for fun their considerations when picking play partners is the same as it is for any one of you, their play partner at the swing club is not going to be paying them so they feel no compulsion to play with anyone they don't feel a sexual attraction too.

As far as the higher risk for std's that was alluded to above goes, in Nevada at least, all legal prostitutes are required to be tested for std's once a week. So if I were worried about std's with my swing partners, someone who is tested weekly is probably a lot safer bet than the average swinger. This is probably one of the main things that compelled me to really seek out and read the available studies on std transmission. Because std's being contracted in Nevada brothels almost never happens (I say almost because although I have never heard of it happening I can't say it never has), which if one believes all the std scare adds and propaganda you would think that would not be the case.

To the question of whether the men these prostitutes come to the club with pay them as their companions? I suspect it happens. I know a few of them well enough to know they attend with their husbands, so I highly doubt they are being paid to come. In another case the woman always comes with the same guy so I always assumed that he was her husband or boyfriend, but I have to say that as long as she is picking her playmates based on her attraction to them, it wouldn't make any difference to me if he was paying her or not. While I do think it would be possible that a guy would pay a woman to play with a husband so that he could play with the wife, that just doesn't seem likely to happen very often to me.

Curiousagin and a couple of others above said that if the prostitute is being paid to have sex with them it would piss them off because they want to only have sex with someone who finds them attractive. While I agree, I have to say that if one swings for very long they will at some time or other, "take one for the team" in other words, you will have sex with someone who really doesn't do it for you. If that is the case it is unrealistic to believe that at some point you won't be having sex with someone who is, "taking one for the team" and doesn't find you sexually attractive either, so what is the difference? I know that we always say, "don't ever take one for the team" a lot around here, but lets face it, most of us have done it whether we intended to or not.

In the end, in Nevada where prostitution is regulated, I think that most peoples bias for not wanting to play with a prostitute who is out for a night of recreational sex is based more on the same kind of prejudice that vanillas have against swingers than it is for any real reason that it would be less safe or less enjoyable than playing with a woman who is a homemaker or a lawyer. I understand completely though, I thought these same things until I met and got to know a few of them and found out that they are just regular people like the rest of us.

[flkeyscouple]

What a wonderful post, Good times. Eye opening, and heartfelt. Food for thought for me. Thanks.

Sarah

[curiousagain]

I didn't say it would piss me off, just wouldn't be a turn on. I wouldn't want a date to have sex with me just because I bought them dinner either, or a wife having sex with me so I wouldn't be grumpy at breakfast the next day, or a female friend because they're looking for a Father figure for Timmy. But, that's just me.

Prostitutes are doing it for money. Anybody that says they've never done anything for the money is suffering from a severe memory disorder or are lying. It's certainly nothing to scorn.

You make a good point though, if money exchanges hands irregardless of who is played with then they are making the same choices any female half of a couple would.

The question to be asked, would she go to the same places with the same man and do the same things if no money was exchanged. That would be the difference, wouldn't it?

He's already explained the difference in his swinging with and without her. What would be the difference in her swinging with and without the money?

edit: What I am trying to say through a benedryl haze is that there is a difference if the woman is a swinger who prostitutes for a living versus a prostitute who is paid to swing. Geeez, I need to get over this illness or just go ahead and take the whole damn bottle.

edit: Crap I mispelled benadryl. I'm going to bed. g'nite all.

[wyandly]

Hello again, I normally dont chime in on a topic, since I'de much rather lurk and learn, but I feel there is something I can add here. While reading this thread, an idea that I once picked up from a book popped into my head: In societies where people are open and unashamed of their sexuality, prostitution is laughed at as being absurd. I believed it then as I do now because it really would be silly to have to pay for something that you can (theoretically) get just by asking, and 'having' to pay throws the notion of just asking into serious question. I think that is how some of you see this, even though its been said in different ways.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by good times

I know that we always say, "don't ever take one for the team" a lot around here, but lets face it, most of us have done it whether we intended to or not.

Of course we all have. We have taken one for the team - and been the bean ball a time or two. But that doesn't mean that we simply shrug our shoulders and do it again. And if we know that we are being taken for the team, why would we put ourselves in that situation?

Frankly, I can't get wood unless I feel like the woman I am playing with is attracted to me.

If a prostitute comes to a club, not on the clock so to speak, and is looking for recreational sex... Well - that has really never been an issue in this thread so far. And in a way, if after having sex with lots of men, she finds me attractive, I suppose that would be a compliment. Whether I would play with her would be a matter of personal choice based on my comfort levels - fair or unfair, rational or not - at the moment.

But, if a prostitute comes with a man as his "escort" - bought and paid for - and the male (her customer) says, "I want to play with them" one would assume that her veto powers are fairly limited. Sure, she can say "no" but prostitutes play with men they aren't really interested in quite a bit, I would guess.

I understand what you are saying, but I am not completely sure it is relevant. Prostitution is not legal in Ohio. And as you have said, it is not legal outside of the brothels in Nevada. So - having sex with someone who is paid to do it at a swing club would be illegal - and in no way within my comfort zone.

Spoomonkey

[Chip_n_Muffy]

If I were in the situation, and found out later that the woman I was with was a paid by the night escort and had sex with me so that her partner could have sex with Muffy, I would feel used. And so would Muffy I imagine. The bottom line is, I do not like liars. In my business life, in my personal life, or in my sex life. And I doubt any rationalization, any explaining, any "try to understand" would take that feeling away from me.

Is it possible for a swinger to feel "used and dirty?" I think it is.

Chip

[good times]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

Frankly, I can't get wood unless I feel like the woman I am playing with is attracted to me.

I agree, neither can I.

I actually agree with your post, I also realize that unless you live in Nevada you probably aren't going to run into many prostitutes at the clubs and even if you did they probably wouldn't admit to their illegal occupation unless they were trying to solicit the club patrons.

Another thing I didn't mention that I wanted to was that all of the swingers clubs in Nevada that we know of also have statements regarding prostitution similar to the ones Mrs. Spoo quoted above in their club rules.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by kush2112

I’m not saying that anyone would not agree with him. I am saying that other individuals can speak their mind on their own as you just did.

Yes, they can, they do and they will continue to do so. It is a fairly common occurance on here for people to give an overall opinion of what others might think in a situation in the same way that Spoo did "many may think" or "some may think"... heck some may be 2 people and with that in mind it is perfectly rational for Spoo to use the word Spoo and maybe he was only speaking for him and his wife.

Instead of spending so much energy attacking others words, why not give your own opinion on the subject. No one is stopping you.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

$100-$200 and up for a cover charge to get in? I think that a swing club charging that kind of entrance fee would be out of business on the first week.

Well... it deppends on where you live and what's the price for a room in a motel. And yes, here prostitution isn't illegal, some clubs allow prostitutes (they say it's for the sake of get rid of the singles who otherwise could bother the regulars), while others doesn't. Translating the exchange ration to the cost of living, I'd say a single entrance fee doubles the fee for a couple, which is about the same a guy have to pay for a middle class prostitute plus an hour in a motel.

The club where we use to go is two blocks away from a brothel, the club is seldom hidden while the brothel it's pretty notorious on the corner. Single guys are discouraged by the fees. Prostitues, unless dealing with club owners, realize this isn't the best place to make money. The fact is, once in a moth or two you see a prostitute comming and attempting to make her business, to realize there are better places where to make money.

[sereneiders]

I believe there are a mix of issues here leading us to different perspectives.

1) The legal issue and the way it could affect third ones (the examples about a police raid). This varies from place to place, and we should set up the proper scenario before providin some anser (i.e. prostitution being ilegal, being "tolerated" -not ilegal neither regulated-, or legal and somehow regulated).

2) What do we mean by "prostitution in the lifestyle"? the fact that someone is a prostitute (with all the degrees: full/part time, regularly, have a "minimum standard" to accept someone as a customer... and the opposite even if being prostitute, being able to enjoy sex enough as to do it "for free" with someone), or the fact that someone is working as a prostitute INSIDE a club?

3) The "ego issue" #1, our need to feel we're "desirable" when someone have sex with us, versus the incertainity about having sex even when they may dislike us, much like a conflict of interests.

4) The "ego issue" #2, to feel it's an unfair competition to provide sex and plasure motivated on your own feelings, next to someone who's doing the same "professionally" and may be up to go further because of this.

5) The requirement for other swingers to share the same standards we have for ourselves about deception.

The problem is, we label as prostitute the exchange of sex for money. Some people may label our wifes as prostitutes just because of being swingers. Add the "once prostitute, always prostitute" factor to the fact that many marriages can be seen as an economical transaction that in part involves, implicitly, an exchange of sex for money... and even there are married couples who "roleplay" the prostitute scene where the wife is being paid to have sex... so the question is... what's a prostitute for the sake of this discussion?

And, what's "prostitution"? For example, a marriage roleplaying the prostitute scene, wanting to charge someone for the sake of their game inside the club, would be the same than a "professional" doing the same?

I believe there are a lot of blurry boundaries here, as to ensure we're all discussing the same question.

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by good times

People often have the missconception that a prostitute, because she has sex for a living would not enjoy purely recreation sex just like anyone else.

I believe that a prostitute, like anybody, could enjoy recreational sex as much as anybody else. However, if she's being paid to be at the club as an escort, I think she's there for the money. This is not referring to prostitutes who may be there "off the clock" with their spouse/boyfriend.

Originally Posted by good times

Curiousagin and a couple of others above said that if the prostitute is being paid to have sex with them it would piss them off because they want to only have sex with someone who finds them attractive. While I agree, I have to say that if one swings for very long they will at some time or other, "take one for the team" in other words, you will have sex with someone who really doesn't do it for you.

I'm one of the people who said I'd be pissed off, but not for the reason you stated. I wouldn't be pissed because she was paid and therefore didn't actually find me and/or my husband attractive, I'd be pissed because I wasn't informed that I just had sex with a prostitute. I think that I have the right to know this before going in. I would especially be pissed off that the prostitute and her customer are posing as a real couple , which is manipulation. The customer knows that a large percentage of couples in the club aren't going to want to get with a john and his known prostitute, so they pass themselves off as a couple. I hate lies. I like to meet people in the lifestyle who are honest about who they are.

Another reason I'd be pissed is because I live in one of the other 49 states where prostitution is illegal. Besides the legality issues, it would be up to the prostitute herself how safely she practices her trade (if at all), and how often she gets check-ups and tested (if ever). Unless I have honest disclosure and the right to examine her background if I choose to, I don't think her john should impose her on my husband and I, passing her as something she's not. That's all.