Sexaholics Anonymous legitimacy

[Zepfanman]

I've posted this (but customized it here) over at the Liberated Christians forum, but TSB is a much more active community, so I'm hoping for some helpful responses here. Thanks for bearing with a copied post, but I'm in need of some URGENT ANSWERS since my marriage is in jeopardy.
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I could share a lot about myself in the Introductions section (which I'll likely do soon), but I've signed up here mainly to get a different perspective on how I should deal with my sexual feelings. I've done some reading about swinging, polyamory, and alternative lifestyles in the past week, and found TSB site tonight.

I'M MARRIED, BUT WE'VE BEEN SEPARATED FOR TWO WEEKS BECAUSE I HAD PHONE SEX IN A RELATIONSHIP MY WIFE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT. WHAT SHOULD I DO NEXT?

My wife and I have been seeing a Christian counselor since March, but he believes in monogamy. He is also highly involved with Sexaholics Anonymous (based on Alcoholics Anonymous), so he recommended I join it right away. While we were both virgins before getting married, I have never been very happy with our sex life. She wants to have sex every day, often even more. For some reason, I'm just not interested most of the time. Ever since I hit puberty, though, I've masturbated to pornography. I feel like I've been numbed to real sexuality. The Sex. Anon. group has been helpful in finding a group of supportive people that understand how I feel, but I'm not sure if their solution of monogamous sex only in all situations is healthy for me.

My wife and I entered our marriage with a "strong", traditional, Christian foundation. However, due to several factors, I've been agnostic for the past couple of months. My wife is still a Christian, so it's difficult to try to honestly share why I had phone sex - she'd rather not talk to me at all than deal with that pain.

There's a lot more to the story, but my three main questions are, "What kind of counseling should we seek?", "Does anyone have any opinions about Sexaholics Anonymous?", and "Is there a 1-800 number (or regular number) I can call that can direct my questions about open relationships?"

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Someone at Liberated Christians responded with the suggestion that we have sex every day at a set time, or even several times a day. My response:

Unfortunately, she's almost fed up with me right now. I'm having to dig myself out of a hole. It'll be a while before I can even see her every day, much less have sex every day. Fortunately, we've arranged a meeting this Wednesday with one of these Christian counselors, so that will be the first time she's let me talk with her since Nov26. She's been in our house since then and I'm living out of a suitcase at a friend's temporarily.

Yes, it would definitely be hard for me to have sex every day; sometimes I even lose my erection because I don't feel a strong enough attraction anymore. I guess it's just because I'm (1) lazy so solo is easy for me, and (2) I'm interested in the challenge of connecting with other women. I've taken my wife for granted, and I don't want to bother trying to spice things up; I'm sure that if we get to that point and I actually put some creative effort into our sex life, it can improve. I'm just lazy and indecisive, and depressed for several years without realizing it, too (say my psych and GP). Sad state!

Thanks so much for such an excellent, honest, supportive forum...

[Mr. Truelove]

What's important for you? Your marriage or your interest in non-monogamy?

Because if my wife walked up to me right now and said, "Honey, I don't want to swing anymore." That would be it, we would be done swinging and I would happily go back to monogamy. That simple, she's my #1.

So with that said I have to look at some of the previous points made in the thread Secrets to a successful marriage Communication, honesty, and respect are some of the points that rise to the top.

I'm not sure you possess any of these at the moment.

Ask yourself this, are you giving your wife the respect she deserves? You say you could improve your sex life if you tried, why the hell aren't you doing it then? Get off your lazy ass and get motivated to invest some sweat and tears into your relationship!

Loss of erections can be fixed a multitude of ways. Pills are an easy route. I prefer the thought of mind over body and improving your physical fitness level. (you mentioned being lazy) But the point is that something can be done about it, not for it to be an excuse.

All I am seeing here is you wanting support in what you want to hear, and not wanting to work on what you know needs to be done. I'm sorry about laying it out like this, but I think it's important for you to realize that you need to work on this or it'll fail.

Me? I'd give up any thoughts of other women for now. Work on your marriage. Do as your councelor asks. Fix your marriage, and then at a much later date, when your marriage is stable, talk to your wife about swinging in an open and honest way and take it from there.

So it boils down to my original question: What's important to you?

[MoonLightKiss]

Gee, where to start. First let me say I am so sorry this is happening to you. It must be very difficult. Second, 1-800 support lines, well my opinion of them is bleak on a good day. They do not know you, can not read body language (which can be very enlightening and essential when going through counseling) and while I am sure they all started with the best of intentions, I am not so sure they remained that way.

As far as your marraige counselor, I am not going to bash him because he is Christian. But I am going to say that it is VERY possible that his view of religion may be clouding the way he can counsel you. It is not unnatural for him to push monogamy, nor is it uncommon for some of them to say "sex addict" at the thought of cheating. They simply cannot see any middle ground. They cannot see that just because you have more than one partner, it does not make you a sex addict. It is my OPINION and opinion only, that a sex addict is incapable of being able to control themselves. Your wife, maybe due to her moral beliefs, feels you cheated. Best to accept those as her feelings and work past that.

Based on your post, I would not automatically say you are a sex addict, but a man who screwed up. People are capable from learning from mistakes and taking the necessary steps to correct them. I would however, not concentrate on whether an open marraige or swinging will solve your problems. Bit of advice, it won't. Swinging enhances a marraige. If its on the rocks...swinging will likely send whats left into a tailspin and you will end up divorced. But for those secure and happy, it can make it that much more wonderful. You are on the rocks. So my advice, forget swinging for now. Focus on your marraige, not what you can add to it for a while.

If you want to work things out with your wife, I would find a counselor. One who is capable of being objective and putting religious morals out the window for now. Faith is a great thing, no matter your religion, but sometimes you need objectivity not faith. And this might be one of those cases. And be prepared to dig deep and be completely honest. No counselor can help you if you aren't honest with them. DO something about your depression. There is no shame in taking an antidepressant if you need one. You would not suffer with the flu would you? NO, you would go to the drug store and get meds for fever, nausea, and aches. Depression is no different. Do it for yourself. You do have the right to feel better.

And reconnect with your wife. You don't have to start off by jumping in bed with her daily. Start out small. An ice cream at the park. Half an hour just to talk about your day. A quiet meal out somewhere. A nice glass of wine in front of a fire. A few minutes of cuddling.

And what I like to call a 97 second hug. The first 30 seconds are spent feeling awkward and rushed. Then you remember how you fit in each others arms when things were wonderful between you and you start to relax for the next 30 seconds. Then you start to smile and feel happy just holding each other. Thats your last 30 seconds. And the last 7 seconds are just extra, because your relationship is worth another 7 seconds. You don't have to time it. You will know when the 97 seconds are up. Your heart and body will tell you. This hug, along with alot of work saved our marraige a few years back. It really helped us reconnect.

[singleagain]

"I've posted this (but customized it here) over at the Liberated Christians forum..."

Zepfanman,

You will get a lot of suggestions here that will be helpful. Mr. Truelove says "Communication, honesty, and respect are some of the points that rise to the top." Start with communication with yourself. Be honest with yourself. Simply put, this means tell yourself just how dis-respectful you were to your wife when you went behind her back. Then you will discover just how much you dis-respect yourself. If you honestly do this you will quickly learn how to communicate in honesty with her. Communication and honesty are the foundations for all respect for oneself and for others. Now it won't matter what sexual lifestyle you choose if you and she choose it together. When you've done this your love for each other will grow and flourish. Then if the two of you wish to explore your sexuality with others you will do it together. After all, doing things together is what marriage is all about. My wife is deceased, but we were always honest with each other and spoke our hearts to each other. Do that and she will learn to forgive and your marriage can heal. Best advice I can give...turn off your computer and your video equipment and throw away your magazines and turn on her heart.

By the way, you don't need to go to every source for help...find one and stick with it or you both will get conflicting messages which will only serve to confound the situation.

[telly2]

I have to agree with MOONLIGHT and what he said, a councellor out side of faith i think would be the first major step. I do have to question why you turned your back on religion? I get the feeling that anything hard, you are quick to turn on. Easier to turn than fight seems to be your MO. That is the feeling i got from your post.

So in my opinion i feel first shake this "I'm Lazy" thing that is what has gotten you into this in the first place. Stand and fight for what you want for the first time in your life. Sorry i am so blunt, but nothing is more offencive to me than someone who hides behind stupidity to get out of what is right.

Your wife didn't ask to be hurt by you and you had no right to disrespect her that way. You are too lazy to spice up your marriage, so look out side for someone else to do it for you. I think you need to grow up, face that reality of life and get over yourself and your needs and think of someone elses feelings and needs first. That is marriage, the other is Number 1 and you are number 2. You have to put 100% into it or it will fail.

Now for my nice side, i can understand and i have seen it before, but pls set up some kind of way to appoligize and show your wife that she is a major priority in your life, and that you will fight for it to work. Be a man and show that you are not too lazy to be there for her. Seeing as her beliefs are very Christian, she want nothing more than this to work. I you also have that same conviction than fight for it.

Chantal

[JustAskJulie]

My first thought in regards to counseling would be to find a non-religious based counselor and NOT because of their feelings towards monogomy but in general because they tend to be a little more understanding of things that don't fit in the "christianity" idea.

It sounds to me like what you and your wife need more than anything is to learn how to really openly communicate with each other. At this point you can't even tell her how your views on religion have changed or that you enjoy pornography and why. A GOOD counselor will work with you both to establish that communication and allow you to BOTH open up about your feelings and desires (both within the counseling sessions and at home). If you can find someone to allow that to begin it will continue at home and start the healing process.

DON'T turn off to her. Continue to try to talk to her at home and LISTEN to her as well. It may result in some arguments but that's the only way you will work through it. Taking the other option is like closing the door and locking it right now, you may as well not even try to fix things because you've already decided that you aren't going to and that what you want or feel is more important than what she wants or feels (when you don't even know what she wants or feels because you haven't talked to her).

[dinkydow4us]

Hi Zep,
My advice is move back into your house. The best conversations are face to face. There will some tears and tense moments, but if your not there it's harder to get the ball rolling. This is the price that has to be paid, like it or not :surrender
I agree with others about consulting a faith based councilor. There's a good chance they may have a hidden agenda What kind of physical condition are you in? A good brisk walk or jog just 30 min. a day goes a long way toward combating deperssion. I know I've been there
Just my nich'els worth. Good luck D. D.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by telly2

I have to agree with MOONLIGHT and what he said, a councellor out side of faith i think would be the first major step. I do have to question why you turned your back on religion? I get the feeling that anything hard, you are quick to turn on. Easier to turn than fight seems to be your MO. That is the feeling i got from your post.

So in my opinion i feel first shake this "I'm Lazy" thing that is what has gotten you into this in the first place.

I think there may be a very valid point here. I believe that often when someone "prefers" masturbation to sex it is because they are lazy. It may seem the opposite since they are doing all the work, but in reality, we all do it on occasion. Heck,there are times when my bf and I will masturbate in front of each other because we are feeling lazy. It's easier to get youself off than to have to WORK to get someone else off (let alone to get them turned on), and to have to WORK to make sure that they know how to get you off.

Perhaps, with this issue of sex what you really need to learn is that sex doesn't have to be WORK and it should be fun. You said your wife would have sex every day if you would, perhaps you do need to start slow and start learning to get to know your wife again not only mentally (as I stated earlier) but also sexually. Learn what turns her on and just as important teach her what turns you on. You could even start by masturbating in front of each other and work your way into more frequent sex.

There is obviously a lot more going on with your relationship than just sexual issues, but the most important bit of advice you are hearing from everyone here is that you and she need to learn how to communicate with each other.

[intuition897]

Welcome to the board Zepfanman!

Holy crap. Where do I start? Better get comfortable...

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

I'M MARRIED, BUT WE'VE BEEN SEPARATED FOR TWO WEEKS BECAUSE I HAD PHONE SEX IN A RELATIONSHIP MY WIFE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT. WHAT SHOULD I DO NEXT?

Oh boy. I guess the first thing I can think of, if it hasn't been done already, is to cut ties with the other woman (or man?) immediately if you value your marriage.

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

My wife and I have been seeing a Christian counselor since March, but he believes in monogamy.

Uh-oh. Nothing wrong with Christianity (being Christian myself), but one thing I've noticed about many Christians is that they become robotic in their thinking, and have deeply-rooted fears that God will disapprove if they question their beliefs or have new angles to see their faith from. JMO, but this is utter BS. From what I've observed, the inside-the-box thinking that most Christians adhere to is not only ineffective, but actually counter-productive. It's unrealistic and it pisses people off. Now it says in the Bible to not be surprised when the world hates you, but that hate should come from people's defensiveness at being confronted with the embarrassment of their own wrong-doings...not frustration and annoyance at how maddeningly unthinking and ignorant we willingly choose to be! Sorry to go on about it, but it's a pet peeve of mine.

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

He is also highly involved with Sexaholics Anonymous (based on Alcoholics Anonymous), so he recommended I join it right away. While we were both virgins before getting married, I have never been very happy with our sex life. She wants to have sex every day, often even more. For some reason, I'm just not interested most of the time.
Ever since I hit puberty, though, I've masturbated to pornography. I feel like I've been numbed to real sexuality.

Exactly. If you did most of your learning about sex from porn, it's no wonder the real thing doesn't quite live up to your expectations. So what is it about real sex that keeps so many long-term couples so hot for one another that porn and even swinging pale in comparison? God knows, I don't resemble a Victoria's Secret model, and I can't do that deep-throat thing. I "don't do" anal sex, and I'm sure as hell not about to take on a football team. Yet my husband complained that, as attractive and skilled as our swing partners have all been, the sex with strangers just wasn't as fulfilling.

The answer is emotional intimacy.

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

The Sex. Anon. group has been helpful in finding a group of supportive people that understand how I feel, but I'm not sure if their solution of monogamous sex only in all situations is healthy for me.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that your wife is cheering for strict monogamy, right?

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

My wife and I entered our marriage with a "strong", traditional, Christian foundation. However, due to several factors, I've been agnostic for the past couple of months.

Would those factors have anything to do with the litte head thinking for the big one? "Traditional" Christian thinking isn't exactly conducive to sexual growth, making it pretty inconvenient to believe in if you're wanting to get into another woman's panties.

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

My wife is still a Christian, so it's difficult to try to honestly share why I had phone sex - she'd rather not talk to me at all than deal with that pain.

This is going to be a serious problem. She needs to feel the pain you've inflicted on her, and you need to see her hurting. Whether you actually completed the act or not, you still cheated on her, man! Then she needs to find some way to get closure which means she has two choices: forgive you at the cost of her self-respect, or leave you. This might sound harsh, but I have a ZERO tolerance for cheating. Non-physical contact is where it starts, but it just escalates because the desire is there.

Your wife is going to need to take her head out of the sand and face reality. If she tries to pretend this all away, forget it happened, it will fester and eat away at her mind until she can no longer deny that she just can't trust her husband, and that she resents him for hurting and disrespecting her. By this point, your relationship will probably be non-existant. Best to just suck it up and deal with it now, before it gets worse.

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

There's a lot more to the story...

There always is.

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

Someone at Liberated Christians responded with the suggestion that we have sex every day at a set time, or even several times a day.

Huh? What's that supposed to teach you, how to become predictable? I dunno, maybe it works but there's just something about having to diary date sex with your own spouse...

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

Unfortunately, she's almost fed up with me right now. I'm having to dig myself out of a hole. It'll be a while before I can even see her every day, much less have sex every day. Fortunately, we've arranged a meeting this Wednesday with one of these Christian counselors, so that will be the first time she's let me talk with her since Nov26. She's been in our house since then and I'm living out of a suitcase at a friend's temporarily.

You can expect to work very hard from now on at earning her trust. You just screwed yourself big time. I know it's "only phone sex", but just how big a deal that is isn't relative to your point of view; it's relative to your wife's. To her, it's obviously a VERY big deal. What you did held great significance for her. You won't convince her otherwise by trying to assert your views over hers. That just reinforces what she already knows: you're unapproachable and focused on YOURSELF...not on her. Once you've convinced her to talk to you about "the incident", ask her what it was about it that hurt her so much? What does she think it means? Remember, what YOU think doesn't count at this juncture; you already "took care of your own needs" at her expense, so, what with her being the injured party and all, her needs are the ones that matter right now.

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

Yes, it would definitely be hard for me to have sex every day; sometimes I even lose my erection because I don't feel a strong enough attraction anymore. I guess it's just because I'm (1) lazy so solo is easy for me, and (2) I'm interested in the challenge of connecting with other women. I've taken my wife for granted, and I don't want to bother trying to spice things up; I'm sure that if we get to that point and I actually put some creative effort into our sex life, it can improve.

Whoah. Don't want to bother?? Yeah, that's going to be a serious problem. Fixing your marriage is HARD WORK and you will bear probably a heavier burden because you've heaped it on yourself. Bad sex is not the problem; it's merely a symptom!! It means that your relationship with your wife is weak, intolerant, out of shape, and full of holes. There's no structural integrity. Building anything on the foundation that you two have right now would be like building on top of gravel. There's no concrete! No matrix! Nothing holding you two together. Find a reason that you want to be with one another, and don't let that reason be sex, or "because the church said so", or because of the kids, or for any other outside reason. Tear down all the walls and rubble and shit that you've built your relationship out of and stand at ground zero with absolutely nothing. Look at one another and decide if you still love each other. Decide if this other person in front of you is worth all the hard work you're about to invest? What reason does your wife/husband have to stay with you? If you can't answer that, then maybe it's time to start working on being the kind of person who is worth being with.

Sorry I don't have a quick fix solution. I would strongly recommend that you seek help for your disillusionment with sexuality from a trained professional (one preferably experienced with alternative lifestyles), and not necessarily Sex. Anon. Don't make any decisions about whether or not you're monogamous-by-nature until you've gained some perspective. It's possible that you, in fact, ARE monogamously wired and just don't realize it. It's just the way some folks are wired and it would be foolish to go against that. It should also go without saying that you need to put the whole idea of swinging/open marriage out of your head for the time being. If you are being controlled by your sexuality rather than the other way around, you have no business trying swinging. You'll only hurt yourselves and one another.

Please come back and post to keep us updated. I'll try to keep my subsequent posts shorter.

[LikeMinds321]

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

...While we were both virgins before getting married, I have never been very happy with our sex life. She wants to have sex every day, often even more. For some reason, I'm just not interested most of the time. Ever since I hit puberty, though, I've masturbated to pornography. I feel like I've been numbed to real sexuality.

My wife and I entered our marriage with a "strong", traditional, Christian foundation.

I would like to know how long you have been married.

I'm sure there is so much more to the story of your life, but it's not possible to get it all in a forum, so I'll give my thoughts based on what you have shared and what I think might be another reason for where you are today.

It is very normal for a boy first discovering his sexuality to masturbate to pornography. I don't see this as something that would define anyone as a sexual addict. You have read (and so have I) the Sexaholics Anonymous website where they list the signs of sexual addiction. If you feel you fit into that profile then you do have a problem to work on and from here the decision is how to best go about it.

As others have said, seeking counsel through a Christian counselor would not be my suggestion either. I think you would get more guilt laid on you and that's not going to help you one bit. A marriage counselor who specializes in sexual counseling would be a better direction to go.

Since you and your wife were virgins when you met and only experienced sex with each other when you married, I wonder if you discovered early in your marriage that you weren't sexually compatible. This is possible since you had no other lovers to compare her to. I think it's a great misnomer that because a wife wants sex all the time (and I think every day and even twice a day is a rare and strong appetite for sex) that it's all that's needed to keep a husband happy sexually. Could it be possible that early on you learned that sex with your wife couldn't provide you with the satisfaction you get from masturbating and so rather than working on your relationship with your wife you retreated into more private sexual acts?

You've said she isn't open to talking with you, so if she's always been this way - especially about sex - I can see where such a pattern could whittle away at a marriage over time. What wasn't faced and dealt with early on has become a sickness in your marriage.

At this point, both of you have to be brave enough, bold enough, to realize that it's time to stop ignoring all the problems you have tried to dust under the rug and start talking frankly.

You may not make it as a couple, but out of this tragic time in your lives you can each come out with something to gain if you handle it with open eyes and a willingness to make life better and more functional, whether together or apart.

Good luck.

LM

[Mr. Truelove]

All these "fixes", like scheduling sex times and so forth aren't going to do crap for you.

You need to learn how to communicate and respect your wife, as well as her needing to learn some things as well.

I agree with Intuition here in all aspects. Go see a non-faith based councellor, and learn how to build a strong marriage. Expect a lot of work, it's how marriages become successful.

Mr. Truelove

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

"Is there a 1-800 number (or regular number) I can call that can direct my questions about open relationships?"

Honestly, you need an 800 number for swinging the way a man on fire needs a match. It is extremely easy to have an "open relationship" when you have no marriage. All singles have them.

What good would the information do? Is your wife interested in such information? Will your time spent on the phone enhance your marriage? Or - are you trying to impose a predetermined course on your wife?

Mr. Truelove asks a great question - what is important to you? I don't think it is as simple as your marriage or non-monogamy. Hell - you really aren't asking about ways to fix the marriage. You are looking for ways to further an agenda within a marriage that is desperately broken.

What is important to you is your pornography. You are addicted. I am basing this assessment off of my definition of addiction, which is: "when something you can't or don't want to give up is hurting yourself or those around you - you have an addiction." And - your asking questions here tells me that you are looking for people to tell you:

1. That you do not have a problem
2. That there is nothing wrong with your sexual interests, and
3. That there is a simple way to sway your wife into non-monogamy

There may be people that will confirm everything you want them to. After all - if you search long enough for justification, you are likely to find it. However, you have to ask yourself - what do you really want? If it is just someone to say, "you're fine", keep digging. You're not at the right place yet, but surely there is a board for you somewhere. If you want someone to shoot your theories full of holes and give you a nice tour of what "responsible non-monogamy" is really about, then sit back and enjoy. You're home

First, let's take a look at what you do have: a wife who wants sex on a daily basis - and is open to more! I gotta tell ya, this is a pretty sweet gig. Do you realize the number of husbands who would sacrifice a testicle to have that "problem"? That is a pretty easy situation to work with. If there was ever a woman who might one day be open to swing, it is a woman who is open to sex. There are damn few of those women out there.

Because of the world we live in, women are often shamed into losing touch with their sexual selves. Sounds like you have a wife who is the typical "freak in the bed". Should you lose her - the chances are that you'll be hard pressed to find another. The next wife may be repressed, insecure, backwards and/or frigid. Be careful what you wish for

A question you need to answer - not to us, but for yourself is whether you think the marriage can be and is worth saving. You've stacked the deck against yourself and have shown an almost sociopathic lack of interest in having done so. You are quite cool about the fact that you are separated - almost giving off a shrug - and plowing forward with your obsession about alternate lifestyles. Do you even care?

If you do; if you want to work on your marriage, this is my advice:

1. Quit the porn. In and of itself, there is nothing really wrong with porn. Sure the industry is seedy and some wives don't like it, but really it isn't a bad thing. I look at it a lot myself - with one major difference: I have sex with my wife with a regularity that pleases both of us (which is a lot since I am one of those lucky guys with a "wife: turbo"). But obviously the porn for you is a major factor in your marital issues and in your disinformation about the lifestyle.

2. Get counseling. Personally, I don't care whether it is Christian, Buddhist or based on the underwhelming philosophies of John Madden. Just get some. Why? You need it and you have no idea where to start. And if you do want your marriage to work you need to give your wife some faith that you are sincere. So - go with her, and go alone, and sit there and listen - to your wife, to the counselor and to yourself.

3. Forget swinging. You've probably made so many mistakes already that this is an issue that will likely never be welcome "on the table." You damaged so much trust - which is the key ingredient to swinging - that rebuilding that is going to be Herculean. Put swinging as your "end game" and your motivation will be transparent.

4. Focus on your marriage. You have the potential to have a really good thing. Don't let it go unless you need to. It is far better to be the happy old guy who had a vanilla, yet full sex life with his wife than the divorced old guy who is spending his twilight trolling around swinger sites for the rare anonymous sex that such things might provide. Trust me - guys like that aren't exactly scoring 10s, if you know what I mean.

On the other hand, I am not one of those guys that believes that every marriage needs to be fixed. Many of them simply can't, and it is better to end a bad marriage than to grit your teeth and perpetuate something that doesn't work. So - if you are in one of those, just man up and end it. There are many men who would love a sexually expressive woman. Maybe she deserves one of those...

Now - let me discuss what I believe is a dangerous misperception about swinging on your part. What you will find on the Swinger's Board is that MOST of the active, vocal people here are part of strong, well-adjusted couples who are madly in love with each other. And on top of that, we are wildly in lust with each other as well!

The stuff you see in a porn video - the pile of people writhing away in choreographed bliss - they aren't swingers. They are desperate actors who had hoped to land a sitcom, but in the meantime need to pay the rent. They aren't - in all likelihood - where they originally hoped to be.

And unless you need more counseling than I suspect - that is not where you really want to be either.

You say that "real sex" is hard and you are too lazy to do anything about that. I can assure you, if you are looking for "easy" you are looking in the wrong direction. Swinging is anything but. For a single guy it can be anywhere from maddening and occasional to a barren place where your seed shall find no purchase. As has been said over and over around here - going to a singles bar is a lot easier.

Should you manage - some how - to get into swinging as a married man, it isn't all that easy either. Let's face it - the women you might play with are still pretty grateful if you move your hips a little. They still require a bit of work on your part and are not simply glorified masturbation sleeves. In my case, if I play at the club, I HAVE to play at home. It is a rule that we put in place when we started and have not yet broken. In fact, we have agreed that when I can no longer do that, we have reached a place where swinging is no longer for us.

There are few things tougher than working all day and then heading out to the club where you drink beer, dance (I dance a LOT), flirt, and then - after midnight - stumble up to a play room with new playmates. Then - with a relative stranger and wrapped in latex, you proceed to have sex in a style designed specifically to "impress"; not the "I lay down, you pet me" style - but the active, sweaty, thrusting style that you hope raises a squeal or two. Then - when done, you go home (stopping at Taco Bell on the way) and, stoked by the experience, have a second round of animalistic sex, trying even harder than you did at the club to impress and reconnect with your wife - secretly trying to knock the memory of her most recent playmate completely out of her memory banks...

Nope - the lifestyle does not exist to provide indolent males with pity fucks.
I want to encourage you to take a long honest look at exactly what you have said about yourself. Just be honest - are you really happy being a selfish, lazy, obsessed porn addict? Is that really the life you want to live? Whether your marriage works or not, you have a few dragons to slay, my friend. The best way to start is just to admit and own why you are really here.

My guess is, it is just another step on a very self-destructive path.

Spoomonkey

[Mrs Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

I'M MARRIED, BUT WE'VE BEEN SEPARATED FOR TWO WEEKS BECAUSE I HAD PHONE SEX IN A RELATIONSHIP MY WIFE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT. WHAT SHOULD I DO NEXT?

I think you know the answer to that but if not you have many good responses here from the wonderful people on this board who if they do have phone sex it is probably with their spouse.

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

While we were both virgins before getting married, I have never been very happy with our sex life. She wants to have sex every day, often even more. For some reason, I'm just not interested most of the time. Ever since I hit puberty, though, I've masturbated to pornography.

My wife is still a Christian, so it's difficult to try to honestly share why I had phone sex - she'd rather not talk to me at all than deal with that pain.

This could be part of your problem :rollseyes You have a tainted view of sex from the pornography. While I don't believe porn is necessarily bad (Spoo and I surf together occasionally) but it's what you let it do to you that affects your relationships. You masturbate to porn and have anonymous phone sex while ignoring your wifes wants and needs for sex and you wonder why she won't talk to you.

I had an ex that never wanted sex with me and watched porn instead. Guess what that does to the woman's self esteem and feelings of security in a marriage and intimacy. She probably wouldn't want to trust you enough to tell you she had a hang nail let alone share anything else with you after the way you have made her feel.

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

Yes, it would definitely be hard for me to have sex every day; sometimes I even lose my erection because I don't feel a strong enough attraction anymore. I guess it's just because I'm (1) lazy so solo is easy for me, and (2) I'm interested in the challenge of connecting with other women. I've taken my wife for granted, and I don't want to bother trying to spice things up; I'm sure that if we get to that point and I actually put some creative effort into our sex life, it can improve. I'm just lazy and indecisive, and depressed for several years without realizing it, too (say my psych and GP). Sad state!

Hmmm, don't have an attraction for your wife. Too lazy to do much more for sex then to work your arm a little. Interested in the challenge of connecting with othere woman.

You are so in the wrong place. Swinger woman are confident, beautiful, and sexual. They are in good, strong, trusting and communicative marriages and relationship and they don't want a lame ass with no more energy than a worm in bed.

If your marriage is so bad (no interest in your wife as you stated) then be a man at least in that area and end it. She can go look for a man who would love a woman that wants sex every day. If you want to make it work then you need to get some help and quite using excuses or looking for people to support your excuses. Right now you are not much above some of the cheating husbands who come here thinking this will be an easy way to step out on a wife that "they say" doesn't want to have sex.

Swinging is not for you. You need help and you need to work on your marriage. There are a lot of people who have just given you some excellent advise as far as counselors etc., I suggest you take the advise and fix yourself.

Mrs Spoomonkey

[JacobSky]

All of the other members have presented excellent points to you about marriage and swinging. I'm not experienced with being in a marriage, but I do have some knowledge about sexual addiction, so I'll share my opinion with you on that.

First, if there is an area of your sexlife where sexual addiction may be present, I'd point to the pornography. Not because it's porn, or immoral, but because you have begun to prefer solo sex over sex with a partner, especially your wife. While masturbation is healthy, sharing sexual experiences and relationships with real people holds a larger priority in a balanced sex life. I believe that pornography can numb a person to sex with their partner. How you may ask, well usually this numbing is not about "other women", but about the actual sex acts performed. You build up a tolerance to vanilla sex, and need more kink to get you aroused. So if you were to explore kinky porn with your partner, and grow in this with her, balance may be achieved. You could both build a desire for a similiar type of sexual satisfaction. Yet, if you form sexual interest that she is not into, and you feel alone in your new fetishes, it will be hard for the sex with her to be as satisfying. You will get your sexual kicks and experience euphoria with the porn, and not with her. I have been there, and I have seen this situation reversed by pulling away from the porn and introducing softer, yet adventurous sex acts into "making love" to my partner. The satisfaction of making love, and doing a few new things, lit a small fire again in my sex life in a healthy way. What was healthy about it? I was sharing it with a partner. Having a sex life that is "alone" is unbalanced, and not the masturbation per se. The porn and maturbation are just your methods.

Originally Posted by Zepfanman

Ever since I hit puberty, though, I've masturbated to pornography. I feel like I've been numbed to real sexuality. ..

Still, if you don't show sings of the "addiction cycle" you're not a sex addict. Your sex life may be out of balance, or unhealthy and not nurturing, but you have to experience addiction cycles to be a sex addict.

The cycle, according to Dr. Patrick Carnes P.h.d. , is:
Preoccupation
Ritualization
Acting Out
then Shame, or Down Time...........the addict feels a sense of "hopelesness", makes promises to quit "this time".

My information comes from reading Dr. Carnes' book, among a few others. Dr. Carnes is the number 1 leading expert in this field, and if anyone doesn't believe me, just google him.

I have been to counselling. I have been to a Sex Addicts Annonymous meeting, which is a different twelve step group, with the same basic beliefs.
I don't believe that over the phone meetings will work as well as visiting a group in person, but the numbers are good for when a sex addict is experiencing an extreeme low point and a strong sense of hopelessness.

So, your inability to have a nurturing sexual relationship with a real woman is a symptom of sexual addiction at this time, as long with a "preference" for porn over real sex. Therefore, just being non-monogamous doesn't make someone a sex addict. I deep look at the whole picture of one's sex life must be taken into perspective.

[Zepfanman]

Wow, I don't want this thread to die, but I've been so busy reorganizing my life in the past couple of days. New bank account, insurance, etc.

I'm really glad to read what everyone's shared. It's good to know that swingers live a healthy love life, even thought it's not something I'm ready for, and maybe never will be. I know it would be better for me to find a non-religious counselor, but I'm not sure where to look in my area (Nashville). Suggestions? Any other SAA or SA attendees or ex-attendees?

I hope to share more soon. I've obviously got more explaining and responding to do. MY WIFE AND I MEET AT 4PM CENTRAL TODAY WITH OUR (CHRISTIAN) COUNSELOR. Please be thinking of us during this time. I want to truly show her that I messed up and that she'll be my #1 priority; I just have to believe it myself, too!

Thanks again...