Don't want to "out" a friend, but...

[EternallySingle]

If a friend is spending so much time trying to hide the fact that she swings from her friends and family, should I come out and tell her that I've always known and that I really would be there whenever she just wanted to talk? I wasn't sure about that, but a couple that I know swings told me that she is extremely active in Grand Rapids scene and that is why she's been avoiding me and the other people from church lately. Its also why she's never home on Thursday and Friday night.

For some reason, I knew she was bisexual and a swinger three minutes after I met her. I mentioned that I missed going to Shenanigans, and she said she used to go there when she lived in Indiana, but stopped when she got married. When I said I didn't know there was a Shenanigans in Indiana, but it makes since since its an obvious club name, she blushed and said she didn't think that Shenanigans would be my kind of club. Then I found out it was a swing club. OK.

Well, I talked to her about some of my swinging horror and success stories without saying they were swing encounters, and she took them TOO well. when I mentioned a threesome encounter, she asked if I was still interested in doing that kind of thing. I said yes, but it would have to be with someone I trusted and wanted to be with me for me first. She never brought the subject up again. But lately she's been acting very shady. At first I thought it was drugs, but she just got hired at a place that requires drug testing before getting hired, so thats not the problem.

That leaves trying to cover up the fact that she is meeting with several couples regularly. Like I said, I know she swings, and I told her indirectly that she could talk to me if she has a bad experience, or a good one that she just has to share with someone that won't judge her. Should I just tell her everything I know, or should I just try to be there silently? Its going on two weeks since I've seen her, and the last time we really talked was a few days before I saw her having dinner with a couple that I used to swing with when I was with my ex-girlfriend/swing partner. She got really embarrassed when I said hi to them and they asked if I knew BW and her new husband had another kid. That's also when she started avoiding me two months ago.

In a way, I think I should just let it go. Last year the same thing happened when tourist season started. In April she withdrew from all of her friends and wouldn't give me the time of day, in September she wrote me a letter saying she missed our talks and asked me to come over for tea after work. I thought it was really a booty call, but she quickly set me straight, then acted as if nothing happened and introduced me to some delicious herbal teas. But this year is different. She is acting irresponsibly with her kids, going out of her way to avoid me (I'm sure its because of the couple we both know), and lashing out at her female friends when they ask her what she's doing with her nights and who are those people she's been visiting. I know keeping a big secret, especially about something you don't see as wrong but everyone else does, can weight heavily on your conscious and create a lot of stress. But how (or should or if) I tell her she can talk to me without making things between us even more tense?

[BradAndJanet]

That's a tough one all right. I think if it was me, having already told her a) I'd been a swinger and b) she could talk to me anytime, I'd let it drop for now. I think if she wants to talk about it, she will. Maybe she'd rather not talk about it and she's afraid you'll bring it up.

If she'll accept it, try to spend some time with her to give her the opportunity to see that you're still a friend. I think you ought to write her a letter and say you miss talking with her. Tell her the herbal tea is brewing and you'd love to see her again, then wait to see what happens.

-B

[JnCC]

You know she's a swinger. She knows you know she's a swinger. Maybe she's conflicted about her sexuality and her role in the Lifestyle. Maybe she's just very discrete and doesn't want tongues wagging all over town about what she does. Whatever the reason, she obviously enjoys the activity, she just doesn't enjoy discussing it with people outside her innermost circle of friends.

You mentioned that she goes to your church, and that you have mutual friends. You're apparently familiar enough with her private life enough to know where she works, how she's raising her kids, what she does in her off-time, and who she does it with. It's obviously making her very uncomfortable, which is probably why "she started avoiding [you] two months ago." Perhaps I'm guilty of reading between the lines, but it sounds like you're somewhat resentful of the fact that she parties with other people, but not with you. At least that's the sense that I'm getting. If that's what she's sensing also, nothing you can say or do will bridge the gap between you. At least consider that the only "bad experience in swinging" she might want to discuss with a friend right now is "some guy from church who knows she's a swinger, and who keeps bugging her about her swinging lifestyle"

I'm very supportive of the alternate lifestyles community, including gays and lesbians. But one popular belief I don't support is the notion that any member of that community has a right or responsibility to "out" another member of that community.

As a single male, you know that the world is a virtual sea of men and women trying to make a connection with somebody. I understand what you're trying to do and why, but in this case, the Karma just isn't there for her. If it were me, I'd let the matter drop and move on...

[TeamSoBe]

Unfortunately Occam's Razor says that the simplest and therefore most likely explanation is that your friend feels cautious about discussing sexual escapades with you because she isn't interested in you.

[wiscpl]

Then don't! If she know's that you know and you know that she knows let it be. Let her be the one to approach you. Society has trained us to beleive what we do is immoral and because of that she may be dealing with issues inside.
She, most likely,feels what she is doing meets her own moral standards and not that which society has placed upon us. Which is perfectly alright with me and everyone else on this board. Since she feels what she is doing is not wrong then she doesn't feel the need to talk about it.
One of these days she'll call again with some herbal tea at hand and want to talk about things in general.

[djjwp]

Well, we all know what everything before "but" is so I'll say it as it is… DO NOT OUT ANYONE. You mentioned she knows your past and etc. Let it go and let her control the path taken if any between the two of you. If you push it, it will go “over the edge” in a bad way. Outing her will not make it any better, it will only tick her off as it would us.

I know when we meet folks, if they mention someone’s name that they know in the lifestyle, we are gone in 30 seconds flat. If someone wants you to know there lifestyle, THEY should be the one telling you.

[EternallySingle]

One, I would never "out" anyone for any reason, except if it were the only way to literally save their life. Two, this woman used to be one of my closest friends. Before I was sure of her status, I actually set her up with one of my friends because I knew she wasn't interested in me. Too many times she let other things get in the way of us hooking up, so I moved on.

But I'm just concerned with some of the things I have seen happening in her life, like I would with anyone. I totally where all of you would think I'm bitter that she is not playing with me, but I've known she swings for over two years and I've never come out and suggested we try to hook up. It almost happened once, but that was the past. We had gotten to a point where we could talk about almost everything. Then a certain couple came to town and she started disappearing for days at a time. Even her boyfriend asked me if I had seen her, and that was strange. It was the next day I saw her with the couple that asked me about my ex, and that was when the flaky behavior started.

Its been two weeks since I have seen her, but I've seen the aftermath of her journey through the community and it isn't nice. There is a lot of talk about her acting as if she's on drugs, but I've seen this in other people who have tried to hide alternative sexual lifestyles (like ours) from people they are close to. The thing is, most gays and lesbians simply tell everyone their secret and after everyone says "Oh, we knew that, we thought it was something else", the strangeness goes away. Telling someone you swing just isn't the same. Because of that, she has become super defensive about everything except her work, and I was simply looking for a way to tell her that I do know a little about what she is going through and we could talk about anything bothering her, like she did when I lost my job, my girlfriend, and my driver's license all in the same week.

Just so you know, I'm not offended by those who thought I was angry about something I wasn't getting. I grew out of that phase long ago. I'm just worried about a friend, and a little disappointed that after everything we've been through she would withdraw so suddenly and completely.

[mfmyeahbaby]

you seem to have very strong morals and that is a good thing. You seem to care about your friends well being and that is good. I say just keep doing you and the world will learn to love you.

[curiousagain]

Maybe as a friend you could explain to her you are concerned about her and why, offer an ear and a shoulder, then accept her choices on how she accepts the offer.

[EternallySingle]

Hi Curiousagain, how you been?

I sent her a letter basically saying that, and telling her what some people are saying about her. Outside of that, I'm going to leave it alone. It always seems that she drops off the radar during the summer, going through this kind of behavior, then she becomes Miss Church Lady once school starts. I met her in the fall three years ago, so I never saw this side of her when we first met. The next summer she seemed to go out of her way to avoid me and I thought that things were over between us. That fall, she started calling me and telling me some things about her life. Last spring shortly after her birthday, she started avoiding me again and spending time with some other...friends. Last fall she started inviting me to dinner out of the blue, and even asked me to go to pick up a check she had from her old job and deposit it into her bank account. I thought that showed a lot of trust, but there's trust and then there's trust. At first I was offended by the fact that she shut me out every summer, but all of us have our summer activities. Maybe her activity is swinging, and she can't afford to let anyone find out so she shuts out all of her friends. I don't know.

I just know patterns, and I've seen this one before. I even went through it when I was first introduced to swinging because I felt everyone was trying to pry into what I was doing on the weekends and why I was spending so much time with older people from Detroit and Ann Arbor. BUT I had someone to talk to that knew what I was doing, even though she had no interest in joining me and I was able get over the feelings of being judged (and I also came up with some great cover stories that were the truth without telling the details). I just wanted her to know she STILL had someone she could blow off steam with. Like I said, she told me everything about her new job, the trouble with her kids and sisters, the neighbors, and her ex-husband. I won't push her for more, but it kinda hurts to see a friend suffering when you have a good idea of how to help.

[curiousagain]

Busy, too busy. Thanks for asking.

Well, you can lead a horse to water, but....... And you can throw someone a rope but they don't have to grab it especially if they don't feel like they need it. At some point you have to ask yourself. Is she avoiding you during the summer because she "hides" a part of her life. Or, does she have time for you "in the off season" when she has nothing more important to do? Try to figure out what it is and if it is acceptable to you. I get the feeling she has her priorities and maybe you need to reevaluate yours where she is concerned. I think at this point, you either have to accept the way things are in your friendship with her or drop the friendship. But, that's just my opinion.

[EternallySingle]

Yes, I've told myself the same thing for the last three or four months. I've actually gone out of my way not to contact her outside the letter I wrote a few days ago. But when everyone keeps saying "She's obviously doing this because I've seen her do this, that, and the other thing", its really hard not to track her down and say "Hey, you gotta slow down. People are starting to talk, and what they are saying isn't nice."

If she renews our friendship in the fall like she always does (and always seems to step it up each year), great. If not, well, I went the whole summer last year not even thinking about her. She contacted me first. I spend most of my weekends camping. No contact with anyone except the kids I chaperone, except when I go into town or back to the house to pick things up. But when everyone asks you "Hey, what's up with Mary? Is she on crack or something?" its hard to just ignore it, but I know I have to. Know one owes anyone any explainations, and you don't have to lean on the shoulder thats offered you.

I just have this thing about friends. I'll help anyone in need, but only my mother is more important than my friends, and I protect them.

Maybe I just need some kids to focus my attention on. LOL (weak attempt to lighten the mood)

[CS_Couple]

Did you ever consider that she may not "KNOW" you are a swinger? You said you hinted about a three-way and some other things but did not actually say you were a swinger.

She may be avoiding you because she thinks you will out her to the Deacon board, at church. Come straight out and tell her that you are a swinger and the stories you had told her about your past were swinging experiences. Then tell her that since you had a close friendship in the past you thought could talk with her about it.

Then let her decide how to handle it. You never know she may say, "wow I'm a swinger too." Or she may say, "funny, I've been busy counsling some swingers this summer." But by all means let her tell you, don't ask her if she is.

D

[EternallySingle]

Over the last week several people told me "Mary" has been sleeping with a married man, and they know because they saw her go to his place at night several times and not leave until the morning. One person told me she didn't know "Mary" was gay, but she went by her house and saw her kissing a woman through the window. Basically, "Mary" outed herself and doesn't yet know it. I know that she was with the couple I saw her with earlier this summer, but...I don't know.

I really want to tell some of her closer friends the truth, but I know I can't. I want to tell her what has happened and what people are saying so she can diffuse the situation herself if she sees fit (she might prefer to be thought of as a lesbian adulteress than a swinger), but if I say "I heard someone say that you..." she flies off the handle and accuses me of trying to run her life and spread rumors about her friends to get her to spend more time with me Surrender

I even tried to tell her about this site, but she said she only uses the internet at work (a public school) so she wouldn't be able to see the site anyway. I don't know what I hate more. Not being able to talk to her about what people are saying she is doing, or hearing people accuse her of being a drug addict or cheating with a married man or woman (depending on who saw her with whom). The only good thing is that it seems to be two different groups that have seen her. Kids have seen her messing around with the woman, people from her church have seen her with the woman's husband. Her neighbors have seen the couple at her place and stay overnight, but noone thought anything of that, even though she sends her kids to stay at friends which is normal for the summer.

I guess I'm still protective of her. She literally saved my life once, and I just wish she trusted me more.

<sigh>