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VanHlebar

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VanHlebar last won the day on March 26 2010

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About VanHlebar

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  • Birthday 02/28/1973

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    Don't Know....
  • Swinging Experience
    About a year...

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  1. I am going through this right now both with MrsVan and our GF. It has been a very big problem. I either can't get an erection or I can't stay firm. Add to this that I also am having issues reaching climax and well I have a recipe for major ego issues. I have talked to both MrsVan and our GF and they both at first also where thinking, like most woman, that they where not doing it for me. Well that was just not the case and it always felt great, I just couldn't keep things going. I was even having some firmness issues while masturbating, so I knew something was up. I went to the doctor and all my labs have checked out fine (no testosterone checkup yet) and since I do wake up more often than not in the morning with an erection, the urologist felt that there was most likely no issues physically. So he has given me a script for the low dose daily caelis. I am going to give that a shot along with some other things. Since finally starting work again back in August after almost two years out of work I have completely fallen off the exercise and healthy eating habits. I am sure this has contributed to at least my firmness and possibly my ability to stay hard. I am not a doctor but I do know that when a person is exercising regularly that the body does "create" or use more blood "vessels" to get the blood and nutrients to the various body parts more effectively. I would only guess that being so far out of shape compared to where I used to be might be having a negative effect. So I have gotten back to working out regularly again and trying to eat more healthy again. As for the mental side of things, which I am sure is playing a big part of it again, I have talked with both ladies and just explained that if it doesn't work it doesn't work, let's leave it be that night and I will just focus on pleasing them with all that I can. I am going to see how things go over the course of the next few months. -Van
  2. We are still working on dates and things. I have had a couple of dates with our GF alone, one was just a movie date and one was dinner, movie and quality alone time after the movie at home. MrsVan has also had some alone dates with our GF and she actually spent the night with her after one of those dates. Our GF's husband was out of town at that time and I watched the little one for them while they went out. I took her home later and MrsVan was able to stay all night there. She loved it! As for MrsVan and the husband, they have no emotional connection really. They are pretty much swing partners. They both enjoy spending time with each other and enjoy playing together, but neither feels an emotional connection with the other, so they have no desire for dates together. As I said, it is still all a work in progress, only been going now for what about 5mos or so? So we still hit come major bumps in the road but all in all I think we are moving in the right direction. While I still would not say this is the best approach for folks, in the end it is working for us. It just means maybe a lot more work than others? I don't really know for sure on that part because I have nothing to compare it to. -Van
  3. So I was talking briefly with a friend the other day about this situation and he had asked how things where going. It made me think about this post and I thought when I got time I would come back and update it for what has gone on for the past 5 months or so. It has been a very bumpy road over the past 5 months, no doubt about it. It took probably close to a month for MrsVan to wrap her head around things and during that first month she also actually admitted that she too had romantic feelings for our friend. She finally talked to our friend about these feelings and our GF actually was feeling the same way. After this moment, while we where all really beginning our "poly" journey, MrsVan still really disliked this word and we pretty much agreed that the relationships where what they where but we pretty much stayed away from the word. Splitting hairs, yup but eventually everyone came around and just admitted that this really was what we where all living and are now comfortable with the description of this. Things have progressed very well within our group, but like all relationships we have had a lot of struggles just figuring things out. Over the months we have had a lot of discussion among the group and we all are in this for the long haul. We may have disagreements and some of them have been very major "growing pains" but nobody is willing to throw away the relationships over the issues we have had. So far the good FAR out weighs the bad. I guess we would be in what is considered a poly-fi relationship? We are no longer in the swinging lifestyle as our GF and her husband have never been in the lifestyle and they have no desire to enter it. Our GF has indicated that the thought of us re-entering the lifestyle causes her pain and for the time being MrsVan and I have agreed that we need to concentrate on this relationship and ours solely. We have told our GF that IF we ever decided to re-enter the lifestyle we would discuss this with them first. While they would not be given a veto power to keep us out of it, we would seriously consider and listen to their feelings because we love them dearly and well, that is what we would do with each other, so we feel it is the "right" thing to do with them. MrsVan and I had been going to see a therapist who has experience with poly relationships. It was going great and we where really making great progress, however he had to move suddenly out of state after our last session last week so now we are searching yet again for a therapist in our area. So things in our new group are going wonderful and I am very glad to report that things are doing wonderful for all of us. When things are good, they are great, but unfortunately when things aren't so good, well they can be really bad too. -Van
  4. We will do intense flirting with playmates and each other. Photos we will share only with those that we have gotten to a very comfortable and trusting spot with them. MrsVan and I have been known to send a photo or two of ourselves to the other one on boring days to keep things lively. I like our new phones that we have as we can have text messages deleted based on the number of messages received from a particular person. So I have mine set at 25, once I get a 26th message the earliest message gets deleted. Still have to go back and delete every once in a while, but then again I keep my phone locked and you need the pass shape to get into the phone. -Van
  5. So I had a head slap moment happen back on Wednesday that I hadn't really have the time to fully process until this weekend. I finally had my chance to meet with my GF and we got to really clear the air between us as well and finally I think all 4 of us at least are on the same page and trying to move in a positive direction now. The head slap moment had occurred to MrsVan, GF and myself all at different times. Mine happened Wednesday night while I was watching GF's little one while her and MrsVan had their talk. The little one was sitting up on my lap and we where watching some cartoons together when it dawned on me that this is NOT just about the four of us. We have watched their little one grow up from the very day she was born and their little one is like another child of ours. It hit me that if this all goes wrong, we may never ever get to see this little one ever again. Add to that, we have become very close with GF's entire family. We have met and always make time to visit with her mom/dad and siblings when they come into town to visit. Then on our side all of our children have become very close to GF and her husband and their little one. So it just really came crashing into me that night, at that very moment that this would become extremely difficult to explain to so many people if it failed. I say this just to reinforce the fact that while I understand the normal advice given on some many posts of cutting losses and moving on as it is the best thing to do. I even agree with that advice more often than not myself. For anyone who may read this thread in the future because they find themselves in a similar situation, think about the entire situation. This was one part of the equation that never ever dawned on me until it was to late. Thank goodness it has/is working itself out and I am pretty confident that this will not be the case, but before you decide to come out with something like this, realize that the ramifications of it may very well effect so many other people that you never even considered. Just a random thought regarding our situation that I wanted to share for others benefit in the future. -Van
  6. Sorry I forget which thread I am in at times and how I have referenced her. There hasn't been any shift in how I reference her, she has been referenced between all four of us as my GF and I as her BF for a very very long time and on my other thread/forum I called her my GF right from the get go. Also GF is much easier to type than constantly typing "the other wife" a few dozen times in a post. I had lunch today with MrsVan and we where discussing my response briefly. I explained to her that after I posted it and then re-read it, that even to me it sounded very defensive. She has already done a great job answering most of the direct questions so I did not feel a need to restate what she said. I was then left with responding to various folks comments. For that I apologize if I did come off as defensive. I am well aware of where MrsVan is at today. This seems to be changing daily and will probably continue to change as time passes and she works through her own emotions. I don't remember if it was said yet, but I have said to MrsVan and to my GF, that I would, if everyone felt it was required, either temporarily or permanently, stop all association with my GF. That would be ALL, it would be too painful to attempt to remain friends and still see her every so often but not be able to message her, email her, call her or the like. I admitted that it would be very difficult and yes it would be like ending any other relationship, and there would be a period of time, call it a morning period I guess, that I would need to get through. Just like any other relationship that ends, eventually the feelings would subside, I realize that. I have also said that is NOT what I want, but if my wife said it MUST happen, then it MUST happen. My marriage and my wife are my number one priority. What I just don't get is why attempting to work things out with this couple MUST mean that I am not putting MrsVan first. If MrsVan did not also want to work this out, then this topic would be over and there would be no room for discussion. Fact is, MrsVan does want to work this out in some manner, we just are not sure what that manner is going to be yet for all of us. This is extremely accurate and I have not tried to hide this position from anyone in our group. If it has appeared in this thread that I have tried to hide this, I apologize and that was purely an over sight. While I do want to maintain my relationship, I do NOT wish to maintain my relationship with my GF to the ruin of my marriage OR to the ruin of MrsVan's friendship with her best friend/my GF. Their happiness and friendship mean more to me than my relationship with my GF. So while it would be difficult to end, if at the end of the day that is what is decided, I will go with it. This thread was started in an attempt to first keep that from happening, as at the present time, not a single person in this group of 4 people want to see that happen. At least not yet anyways. I look forward to hearing more and I am always willing to clarify or answer what I can. If my situation can help anyone else in the future by reading this then great, but if not, just writing and reading is very helpful to me personally. -Van
  7. Ok, so where to begin? First this will be long and I apologize for taking so long to get back here to answer everyone. Life and other items such as network going down kept me from being able to use the laptop and although small posts work from my Android, not something like this. First I want to say thank you to every single member that has participated here. This is THE reason we love this forum. We have been around here for a number of years now and although reading some of the responses has been difficult for me, every single one has given me something to think about or look at our situation from a different perspective. I will try my best to answer all of you the questions that where asked to me, if I miss your specific question, please let me know, it wasn't on purpose, just so much here now. One other piece of housekeeping. I have given the link to my GF and have encouraged her to at the very least come here and read this so that she and her husband can keep up on what MrsVan and I are talking about to others. I have also encouraged her to join and participate in this discussion if she would like and I explained that it could be very helpful to her, as well as to us. She has already read the thread I started at a different forum. Now, many including MrsVan have indicated that a poly situation is not going to work. I myself have indicated and agreed with MrsVan and my GF that what I am looking for is NOT a poly arrangement, in the true sense I guess. I would argue and I have said this to MrsVan already, and she sort of agreed, we have basically been living in this type of arrangement for the past year and half or more. Poly does not have to be all four members of a group having emotions for each other. It also does not have to have any sexual relationship involved to be called poly. I will be specific here so that everyone understands what my "ideal" situation would be out of where we are. I want what I already had with my GF prior to me having a serious lapse in judgment last week AND prior to my feels for my GF and hers for me, coming out. We already would meet at times for coffee, lunch, go shopping or run errands together. MrsVan has once even watched my GF's little one so that her and I could go watch a movie that MrsVan and her husband had no interest in going to see. At one point in time, all four of us where on the same page about playing together. It was going to happen and everyone was very ok with that. I would still like to go with that for EVERYONE, not just because I am sexually attracted to my GF. Now with all of that said, that is my "ideal" situation. I know that my ideal situation and reality are not going to be the same, maybe never. I am ok with that, but everyone needed to know what I am looking for so we have a starting point. And while I would agree with MrsVan, my GF and everyone else that says a poly situation is not the place to be, I would argue that we where/are there already. Poly, just like swinging comes in my flavors. I have learned over the last few years that labels suck and I think in this situation, the label of "poly" is causing some issues, but that is another topic for another day. This is absolutely true. I know that in our group there is not a single person who would disagree with this. As a little more history I will add, that our "games" began around March or so of last year. I realized I was having feelings for my GF way before that time. So while it could/will be stated that the swinging aspect may have increased/caused these feelings, I am not convinced of this. I can't not say for sure it has not increased the feelings either, I just don't know. I just know where I am and I would also say that one would think that 18mos is a VERY long time to desire someone without having that desire fade. How many of you can say that you have had that desire for a play partner without ever having the actual opportunity to play with that partner and have it remain in tack for that long? I would venture to guess that most of you would have left that play partner long ago realizing that it wasn't going to happen. I say this to try to put into perspective that this is more than just a sex and play situation. I am going to quote you LM, but I am responding to more than just you, just easier this way. I have seen a couple of times something similar to this or the statement of "MrVan just want his cake and eat it to." I would say to this, don't we all? Haven't most of us on this board that are involved in swinging at some level, or at least open to it, wanting our cake and eating it too? Haven't we made a conscious decision to go against what society tell us, that we must love AND have sex with only the person that we are married to or committed to? Please explain to me, how your wanting your cake and eating it to, is any different than mine? Why because mine has love attached to it and it isn't just purely for sex? I absolutely want my cake and eat it to. I have to agree with DocWill, while on the surface this really can appear to be your typical thread of "damn I fell for my wife's best friend and I don't want to lose them both". However, most of those are the husbands coming here looking for a way to tell their wife or asking for help hiding it or trying to figure out how they can use swinging to keep everything. Sorry, but I have been honest and upfront about my feelings with MrsVan, my GF and her husband. No hiding anything in this group. I am not using Poly as a means to an ends here. I posted it in this group because this is where it fit best. Let me tell you something, coming out to my wife regarding my feelings about my GF the first time was the SCARIEST thing I have ever done in my entire life. Someone described it to me elsewhere best, it is like looking out over a cliff and seeing water way below. You know in your heart you are going to jump, but you don't know if there are rocks at the bottom or if it is even deep enough. I also had to consider our friends and what this would do to their relationship. Again not an easy thing to do. Love you guys and I just had to quote this for the term mostly. I 100% agree with the term and actually I would look back to a thread on here from a few years ago where it was debated that being in the lifestyle was/could be more of a mindset than the activity, but anyway again a different topic for a different day... I agree that looking at swinging now or at all could be dangerous, which is why everyone understands that stuff has been shelved, maybe for good. First thing to do is start rebuilding my trust with MrsVan and start addressing how we manage the friendship going forward. Like it or not,things have changed in our group, only time will tell if it is for good or for bad. Oh Alura, we have gotten to know each other over the years through this board and your shtick of "I am just the guy from the sticks that don't know nothing" is so funny. Your posts on any subject on this board have always been insightful and I have always enjoyed reading your posts. Your life experiences that you share and your wisdom are priceless and this board is so much better for having you here! I do love the shtick though my friend, I use it often myself. Well I am not sure if MrsVan said this anywhere and I am getting tired of flipping back and forth and searching to be honest, but it has come out that this was a joke from my GF. Sort of ill timed on her part and she swears that when she sent the message she indicated it was a joke. She may very well have, at the time I was in the middle of talking to MrsVan about this subject and I wasn't really paying attention to messages. So the husband is very fine with what is going on. He chuckled when my GF told him about my feelings for her and her feelings towards me. She thought he wasn't taking her seriously, but he explained that he knew she was serious and he wasn't surprised. He understood how this could happen and he is fine. On that note, I have to diverge before my last item and just say something that I have said to MrsVan a couple of times and that I have said just recently to my GF. This couple absolutely amazes me, both of them. They have taken so much shit from us (mostly me) and they have stuck with us. Not only have they stuck with us, but they have just taking these things in stride and continued to work with us on "fixing" them. For a couple that is only, as CplnuSwing puts it "LIfestyle-friendly", they sure have their house in order and their communication skills with each other and with us are just flat out amazing. I think many people search all their lives to find friends like this, and most never succeed, inside the lifestyle or out. I know that I myself have given out the same advice that most have given me over the past year or so regarding this couple. Run, run away as fast as you can, this is going to turn out bad, there is no way this is going to work. You can not take friends and make them swingers. I myself have said this montra over and over to people here as well. If we had done that, we would have lost some truly amazing people in our lives and I know that I speak for MrsVan as well when I say that our lives truly are that much better for having them in it. They are as much family to us now as they are friends. I know that this case is very unusual and I still would not recommend this path for most people. Most couples do not have the level of communication and committment that is required to make this work. I am not even sure yet that we do, but we are trying. It is a work in progress and I feel very confident that it is going to work out. Oh where to begin my friend. I have really enjoyed your posts over the years and while I could not disagree more with your comments here, I want you to know that I still very much appreciate your input. I said it earlier in this thread, when a person comes to a public forum to discuss a problem, they are going to get every kind of feedback, some of which they are going to strongly disagree with. I started to respond to you directly yesterday and after writing my post I set the laptop aside so that I could calm down and relax before actually posting it. I am so very glad that I did. Just my typing out of my response was cleansing. As to your specific comments though, firstly I am quite sure that my balls are still attached right where the Gods put them. I am pretty sure that the shear act of telling my wife openly and honestly that I do love my GF and risking losing everything that I have worked for this past decade plus, indicates that my balls are just fine thank you. Who is more important? I am guessing this question really must have been a rhetorical question and as such I won't bother answering this one. For if you really need this question answered then you have not been following along very well and I don't think answering it will further your knowledge. You say I am being selfish and I need to man up and drop my GF. I see that, I get that and if this was posted in a different forum, under a different title by a different man I might even go along with that comment. This was purposefully posted in the correct forum dealing with issues where someone loves more than one person. It can happen, you think it can't happen to you or your spouse? Keep your head in the sand then my friend, but don't bitch when the coyote take a huge chunk out of your ass because you didn't see him coming. I think most people would agree that nobody in their right mind would choose to allow this to happen on purpose. You have not held you wife while she has cried herself to sleep over this. You have not had your wife lay on your chest sobbing and know that you are the cause of all that pain. Being a man is much more than just doing what is easy. Being a man is doing things that you know are going to be tough. I have absolutely no problems with you disagreeing with my issues and even with you stating your opinions, but as I said earlier, if you put yourself on a public forum you too must expect that someone will say stuff you dislike. With that said I do still truly appreciate your input here. Everyone has been so very honest and helpful. While we may not get the answers we need from this thread, and I never expected to anyways, just posting and reading has been extremely helpful to both MrsVan and myself. I can only hope that my GF will actually join and respond and share some of her insight, but just having her read it would also be fine. Sorry this one got so long, I will try to keep up better in the future. -Van
  8. I had started a response here but had to put the keyboard down and think more on my response. Now the power is out and I am on my phone so it will need to wait until later. I will respond and give more information that will clarify things for people I promise. Thank you to and everyone of you for your thoughtful posts.
  9. Sure can. I started to realize something was "different" probably around the beginning of last year. Can't really give a specific time frame but it was around there, before we where supposed to leave for a vacation with them. Once I figured this out, I talked to MrsVan to let her know about my feelings because there was a very strong possibility that on this vacation we where all going to finally get a chance to play. Turns out we where not able to play for nature's reasons and from that point on play stuff has been pretty much shut off. I have been going back and forth with what my true emotions have been. At first I said I loved her, then after seeing MrsVan's response I back tracked and said maybe it is just a "love" stronger than a normal friend but not romantic. Then I tried to ignore them hoping they would go away, like that was really going to work. It all came out with the other wife because I made a joke last week while we where all out to dinner that really really hurt her and upset her. I felt terrible about this and her response to my joke really made me think that there was something else going on. When her and I talked the next day, she also indicated that my response of being very upset and me saying I had learned a few things from the joke incident caused her to think that maybe I had feelings. She pressured me a lot the next day via text message to explain things and at one point she said, look I am pretty sure that I know what you are going to say, but I need to hear you actually say it. It was at this point that I just said it. Text messaging was NOT the way I wanted to handle this at all. MrsVan previously had said that I was not to say anything to this couple about my feelings as she was deathly afraid to lose her best friend. I haven't even seen the other wife or husband face to face yet since this all has happened. I get that honor tonight at volleyball.
  10. Well this is NOT going to happen. The other husband, while he says he is "ok" has already said that we are not to have anymore unsupervised visits. Now I am not sure if this is a permanent situation or something that "might" change again in the future once we all figure out how this is going to workout. I have no choice but to accept this at this moment in time. You aren't obsessing over my post, you are offer up advice and your opinion, both of which I clearly came looking for or I would not have posted my situation on a public board. I have been around here long enough to know and respect most of the members. I come here for advice because I know that I will get both the good AND the bad, if you will. I won't hear only what people think I want to hear and many times folks offer up a different point of view that I haven't thought of yet. So no worries on multiple posts in the middle of my night. Ah my friend, see this is the crux of it all. I have used these very same examples while talking to MrsVan about this just recently, and at the moment, she still doesn't see it this way. I understand where she is coming from, you don't get to that view over night. I have had an 18mos jump start on all this and am 18mos of thinking, pondering and self evaluating, ahead of the rest of the group. I have been dealing with this LONG before anyone knew anything about it and I have spent a lot of time at a different board, multiple websites and even reading a book to help me understand what is going on. So I can't expect what took me this long to "sort of figure out", for the rest of the group to catch up in a weekend. We all have a starting point to work from and that is that nobody wants to lose the bond and friendship that we have built over the past couple of years. This other couple are very wise and are not the typical vanilla couple. While I am not sure how this is going to fall out, neither of them are all that concerned with what others think. We have had that talk a number of times as a group, as most of their neighborhood think we are all one large happy unit as it is. We have had a number of discussions about people talking about us and as many on this board have wondered over the years, why can't folks just mind their own business? If it works for some and not others, so be it. Anyways I am beginning to ramble.... I am not convinced that the other husband is really "ok" with all of this, and to be honest how could he be? I know what I felt like trying to get up the courage to discuss this with MrsVan, and his wife had all but a day to do it in. He and I where supposed to be getting together this weekend, prior to all this coming out, now I am not sure if we still are. I have sent him a text to see if we are still golfing, but he has yet to respond. This is not unusual with him, but since he has pretty much ignored my other texts that have to deal with the situation, it has made me skeptical of his actual "acceptance". MrsVan and the wife are meeting for dinner tomorrow night to discuss things. It has been difficult because the other wife has company in from out of town all week long (yea can you say terrible timing), and they have not been able to get together. I am actually a bit nervous about them getting together, why I don't know. They have done dinner more times together than I can count over the years, but for some reason this one is different. I worry about them both and I know there are going to be a ton of tears at dinner. I do know that they both love each other very much and this will be a HUGE step in setting things right again between them. As for me, well I really need to finish my talk with the other wife, but that is difficult to do now. I can't meet her alone to do this, text messaging is getting so tough at this point and email isn't much better. I can't pick up the phone and call her because of the company that is in town until this weekend. So I guess I am stuck, waiting for the weekend and even then, her husband will be home and with everything going on, it would seem very wrong to take time away from their healing process so that her and I could talk. -Van
  11. So this weekend the crap hit the fan if you will. I have posted much lately as life for MrsVan and I just hasn't been focused on lifestyle things at all. Many may remember a few posts about a couple that we have known for a couple of years that have turned from a standard vanilla couple to playing fun naked games with a bunch of touchy feely stuff as well. Well about 18mos or so ago, I felt a shift in my emotions towards the other wife, first what I thought may have been just a strong infatuation, then just a deeper connection than typical friends. Well after many months of soul searching and on again off again discussions with MrsVan I have finally come to terms with how I feel. In addition to that it has been made aware to the other couple. She has also confessed feelings for me but I am not sure to what depth. We are now at the early stages of attempting to figure this all out. MrsVan feels like she is now sharing my love and her best friend, as that is who I have fallen for. While everyone knows deep down that neither of us are going to run off, this is still a lot for us all to deal with. I am struggling to put into terms for MrsVan exactly how I feel, and I am struggling with a way to explain that I do not love her any less. Nor is there anything missing in our relationship. I truly did not seek this out, at first I was confused about my feelings as well. It has happened and now as a group we are attempting to work it out. Any help is welcome. While MrsVan and I may be experienced swingers we are not experienced with poly situations AND our friends have been nothing but a traditional couple for all the years they have been together. Just looking for some helpful advice....
  12. I am glad to read your posts about the club. As I have stated a number of times in this thread and in the other thread, we have not been to the club so most of our assumptions could very well be incorrect. I still think that even if you ARE doing it correct and the kids don't see anything, I agree with Chicup, that this is just giving potential energy to the folks that already want to see the club shut down. Just because the club has had no issues with the law, don't fool yourself that there is not anyone out there in that city still working on shutting the place down. Again, I am glad the club is doing well and I know a number of folks that have been to the club and they all have nothing but great things to say about the club. I just think mixing the two, teens and adult is dangerous and not a positive thing to do. That is just my opinion and I would say it if this was the Bristol's strip club that used to run on 63, had they made the choice to do something similar. The fact that it is now also known as a teen club, only puts more attention onto the club. More and more folks will now know that there is a club there and although your club is only open for teens on Sunday nights, again what happens when a group of parents bring their kids there and drop them off on a Saturday night, not realizing that the club isn't open for teens that night? Most folks that are in the lifestyle want things to be discreet. They do not want everyone in town to know that they are going to the club and I just feel that by using the club for "dual" purpose puts more light onto the club and not in a great way. Just my .02 worth.
  13. I am very glad to see that the club has been a success. As I stated before, I really was hoping it would work out as the area needs more clubs not less. With that being said, since you are here I would live to read a response to the post started that discusses the club's decision to use the space as a teen club on Sunday nights. I would be very interested in hearing about the thought process involved in allowing teens into a club that is a known adult entertainment location.
  14. So I just confirmed that the club is in fact running on Sunday nights as a teen club. I spoke with someone who is friends with the owner and she indicated that it has been running this way for two weeks now. Personally I think this is a terrible decision! Mixing sexually oriented business with teens is just asking for trouble. This club has stripped poles and a few locations set up as play areas. I understand the need to make money from clubs, but I draw the line at something like this. We already deal with the conservatives trying to say we do this and they need to protect the kids, well in this case how or what do they think the public perception will be of mixing the two? I realize they are on different nights, but lets face it, the general public will not dig much for that, they will quickly jump to the fact that it is a sex club and they allow teens into the club. Just not a good thing for the lifestyle in our area in my opinion.
  15. While this has been on our fantasy list for many years, we have only had one couple that we actually came close to even doing it with. We never got to experience it for many reasons, but I think if we ever do get to ours will be a lot more like Alura's. We might do either a combined dinner date, then head out separately to a bar/movie whatever and then back to a different house for the sex. Afterwards though I am sure we would be heading back to our own homes so that we could be with our partners for the remainder of the evening. For me I have always enjoyed going back to Mrs Van after playing and it didn't matter what time it was that we finally made it home. I like this idea a lot and I also like the idea of working up slowly to it. The spending the night but all under the same roof it a great idea and allows you to still have emotional security if it is required by anyone during the evening. -Van
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