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**Macbeth**

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**Macbeth** last won the day on August 10 2009

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About **Macbeth**

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  • Birthday 11/25/1971

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  • Relationship Status
    Married Couple
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    Oregon
  1. Thought I'd post both an update and response in this thread. Since my last post, we've modified our position, probably to the extent that we won't be frequenting these boards much anymore. Essentially, we've chosen to go with a poly/open marriage arrangement. This definitely is more in line with our personalities and desires. The primary difference, in my opinion, between an open relationship and swinging, is that an open relationship may or MAY NOT include sex with other people. In our take on it, it's more of a removing of the societal/ingrained moral restrictions that we've placed on what a relationship outside of our own marriage can be. We're still in the early stages, but my wife has actually struck up a relationship with a mutual friend, other than the one mentioned in my other posts. It was a quick set-up, because when she allowed herself to be aware of her attraction to him and actually discussed it with him when a nearly perfect opportunity arose, he admitted he'd a has a crush on her for months. There's still a lot of discovery to be done in that one, but it's also helped us to truly refine our thoughts and parameters. We're not doing the polyfidelity thing, but we are allowing ourselves to pursue secondary relationships based on friendship, intimacy, and mutual attraction. The key to all of this, as with swinging, is communication. We've had some of the most emotionally exhausting conversations of my life over the last few weeks. Physically exhausting too, sometimes, since we're often walking when we talk. We've opened up to each other to a degree we've never done before in fifteen years of marriage, and have become SOOO much closer because of it. Is this arrangement for everyone? Hell no. It's working for us, but it's a work in progress . . .
  2. You bring up a great point, Slevin. Time is key issue, and one that we've discussed in this regard. Several points have come up that give us an idea of how that would impact us. First off, we have both been extensively involved in theater for years. We are used to one or the other of us having late evenings and busy schedules, usually for long periods of time. We have often gone long periods of time with only the passing in the hall kind of stuff. At the beginning of our marriage we talked about how this was something that we felt was important, and that it was expected and accepted that their would be an impact on our time together. It hasn't weakened our relationship at all. Add in separate travel that we've done for business and education over the years, and we're familiar and comfortable with it. Secondly, we have always had not only mutual friends, but close friends of our own that we spend time with separately. Evenings out with our individual friends occur frequently. We've even done separate trips, such as hunting trips, or weekends at the coast. Making the time for external relationships has always been an important element of our marriage, and will remain so. Neither of us is looking a second spouse, or an addition to our family. We are looking for deep, full, and fulfilling relationships with other people to complement our own. We just don't want to place restrictions on what those relationships may or may not involve. We've already laid out that any of these relationships should not interfere with anything we have planned as a family, and that neither of us would try to create situations to 'test' our commitment to each other (i.e. bringing up something we'd rather do when the other mentions a potential date). The other element we've discussed is that we have 15 years of marriage, with all the shared experiences that involves, as well as a child. NOTHING we find could replace that. Even the strongest connections would be fundamentally different than that kind of connection. But, with that in mind, we've also talked about how these other relationships should probably not involve the kinds of things that we have traditionally valued as experiences to be shared within OUR relationship, such as travel. Evenings out, etc. are fine, but we're not going to run off to Cancun or Rome for a week. At least, not unless we both go along. I know that many people hold a fairly strict view of the concept of 'poly'. That's fine. We've established what we feel is our view, and find that the term poly fits better than swinger. I guess it doesn't need a name.
  3. Sunswept - I have to say that you have provided some very thoughtful, informative, and well constructed input here. It really helped us understand both the lifestyle in general terms, as well as helping us understand and clarify what we're thinking about. Our talking may be leading us in a more Poly direction, but there is still quite a bit of discussion and personal exploration that needs to happen. One thing that I keep thinking about is the nature of love, and our relationships with people around us. Love has no limits, other than those applied by ourselves, or by society. Love is pure, and can be expressed in many ways. Sharing love does not reduce the amount of love available to you, and sharing love with another person does not have to replace the love you share with someone else. Whether it be a strong friendship, a romantic involvement, or sexuality, as human beings we have a capacity for loving that is not by itself confined or finite. By giving ourselves and our partners the permission to experience and express our love without guilt, shame, or fear we only increase the amount of love we are able to experience. I know it sounds kind of cheeseball, but that is where my thoughts have been centering. That, and my wife and I both have started coming to the conclusion that our old religion is perhaps being replaced by the 'religion' of love and attachment.
  4. I realize this is an older thread, but since it's something we've been talking about a lot, I thought I'd step in. We're thinking of adopting what we would consider an 'open marriage.' It wouldn't fit under some folk's definition, but that's the term that works for us. Basically, we would allow each other the freedom to take advantage of an opportunity, should it arise. We would need to inform the non-present spouse before we took action, so to speak, and we'd both definitely want to hear the details about it after. She would rather take a more organic approach and be open to what comes along, but has said that she'd be fine if I wanted to be more active. The primary requirements we've been discussing, other than informed consent between us and apart from safety issues, has been that it can't be a long-term arrangement, and the other party needs to be aware of our status. Now, neither of us has actually done anything yet, and we haven't even turned the key to start it up, but this is what we've been talking about. We're not opposed to the concept of a threesome, or couples play, but want to start this way.
  5. Very interesting thread, and very helpful information in it. It's good to know that many of us have similar experiences. Both my wife and I were raised very conservatively. She was raised in Baptist and Mennonite circles (not Amish, don't worry . . .), where I am/was what some might refer to as a Birth Right Quaker. Now some of you on the east coast may have experiences with Quakers that definitely wouldn't preclude the lifestyle, but the Evangelical Friends tradition is not the same thing. My father spent many years as a pastor, and I even spent a short time in college working as a youth pastor, and seriously considered being an international missionary for several years. So, big 180˚ turn here. As a PK, I got to experience the dirty underside of organized religion first hand, seeing my family in general, and each of specifically, treated like property or 'hired help'. That combined with philosophical and moral evolution led us to reevaluate our faith and come to the conclusion that most everything we'd been taught was fatally flawed, and did not fit into a rational view of the universe. So, we've settled into the realm of 'Agnostic'. We don't disbelieve, but have definitely settled into the attitude that there is no way to know, and that the rules of modern religion exist more to control people, or to allow people the comfort of never having to think rationally or look closely at the world around them, than they do to bring people closer to 'God'. My wife actually brought up an interesting comment I'd made years ago, which was a reflection of something said by the Apostle Paul (I think it was Paul). Basically, if this (formalized Christianity) isn't true we are all pretty foolish, and I'm going to be ticked off at all the things I haven't allowed myself to do. I mean, for crying out loud, my wife and I were virgins when we met, we had a two year dating/engagement (in college), and had sex for the first time on our wedding night. We're lucky, being soulmates, but the divorce rate at our Christian college was frickin' astronomical, because people were getting married just to have sex! Anyway, that's my $.02 on this!
  6. Thanks for the responses, again. I've set up an account for her, and she browsed a bit last night, but hasn't had a chance to actually post anything. I would love for her to chime in. First off, neither one of us has an intention of inviting either one of them individually. Her intention was simply to mention it, as if she hadn't spoken to me, to gauge the reaction. It would not even be in reference to them specifically, but rather more general about maybe possibly considering it as an idea. If the reaction is negative, she has the plausible deniability of just sharing secrets between 'the girls'. There is also the chance that the response would be "well, we've been thinking about that too!" The voices of experience on this are definitely welcome, and I'd really like her to get into this discussion, since a third party can often give the necessary perspective to clear up thinking, and I'm not always the best at conveying information like this. And as far as anything happening between the two of them, I may have overstated the possibility. There have been a few drunken flirtatious moments in the past, with "I like her more than I like you" kinds of comments, after some flirtation with me prior. I don't want to judge anyones actions based on their behavior while intoxicated, but you still see some things that may not come out sober but are still really there. Regarding the concept of 'open marriage', we've kind of been using the definition as allowing sexual encounters other just the two of us. I know there are many, many different definitions, but that's where we're coming from on it.
  7. Thanks for all the replies. Sunswept: I think we're definitely more toward the swinger end of things. We have explicitly talked about the fact that sex is one thing, but a longer-term emotional relationship would be something completely different. Most likely something detrimental to our relationship. For the Mrs., I think she is more concerned with the comfort level, and having people we already know would make her feel more comfortable. The big issue, to me, is that if the other couple is not in the same place as us, or has not thought about it the way we have, then even if there is an agreement there is a strong likelihood of it going terribly wrong. My wife has been discussing a platonic 'girls weekend' with this young woman, although from past experiences I have strong suspicions that with the right external impetus, it would quickly stray from the platonic . . . Anyway, she has decided that she will broach the subject by talking to our friend about how she has been fantasizing about opening our relationship. This would be done in a tone of confiding a secret, and maybe asking if they'd ever though about that. This doesn't bother me too much, because it can easily be played off as 'girl talk', without ever putting the "do you guys swing?" card on the table. The other element that concerns me, though, is that this is a married couple. While I could easily see the wife being into it, the husband is pretty reserved and almost pathologically shy. That could hide some fairly wild tendencies, but could not. I definitely don't want to do anything if there isn't mutual consent from the whole couple, as the only thing worse than destroying the friendship would be damaging or destroying someone else's marriage. So, my wife will most likely be doing the 'girl talk' thing, since she has pretty much made her mind up to do so in a situation that reduces the danger level. I suppose the worst that can happen is that a seed could be planted, as long as the situation is actually right. And, for a little more info on the club idea, one of my wife's concerns, apart from the extremity of the step, is that she is in a helping profession, and the idea (however remote) that she might possibly run into a client in that situation would put a very wet blanket on the experience for her.
  8. The concept has come up as a 'joke' off and on for about 10 years, but just in the last few days has it actually been presented seriously.
  9. I design and make custom furniture. So . . . cabinet maker and/or artist? I am also a professional actor. Don't worry. You haven't seen me in anything. EDIT: Unless you have, and then we may need to talk.
  10. Okay, the topic is a little vague, so I'll give a little info here. The wife and I are very interested in the lifestyle. We married young, and have no sexual experience apart from each other. We were both raised in very religious homes, but have made a final break from all of the baggage that is included in that. Jealousy has never really been an issue with us, and we both have close friends of the opposite sex, and have talked openly about our attraction to others. That is what actually led to us wanting to give this a try . . . We have some slightly different views on how to approach it, however. Our very long discussion on the topic eventually led us to discussing which people we know that we would actually feel comfortable sleeping with. One of the women we know was a definite on our lists (mine, and hers for me), although very few men popped up. I'm definitely straight, but she is mildly curious. We also discussed the concept of 'opening' our relationship, and giving each other the permission to pursue opportunities, should they arise. Right now, she would definitely be more comfortable with feeling out some of our friends, especially since one couple has been reasonably flirtatious and a bit of sexual tension usually develops. I'm a little leery of this, simply due to the potential damage the inquiry could do to our friendship, which is valuable to both of us. We have discussed ways of bringing it up in a such a way as to have plausible deniability if our read is wrong, but I still feel a little odd about it. Not that I wouldn't jump at the opportunity with this particular woman, but . . . I have brought up to idea of maybe finding a club and testing things out to see how it feels in a practical situation. She feels that this is a bit more extreme, and is actually more attracted to the separate encounters anyway. When you add into the fact that I don't really trust CraigsList or other sites, I'm not sure what the middle ground might be. Has anyone had experience with any of these situations? I've read the warnings about trying to bring your vanilla friends into the lifestyle, but since we're still basically vanilla still ourselves I'm curious if there is a way to determine if someone is interested or curious without simply saying "Do you guys swing?" Hopefully my rambling has made some sort of sense.
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