Shunning of male bisexuality

[jcbicouple]

Well, We don't know if people are born "gay" or "straight" but we certainly weren't born bisexual. Hadn't even considered it until about 6 years ago. Hope we haven't given the immpression that we think everyone should try being bi! It's something we enjoy, but we certainly don't think everyone should, just because we do. We've just never been very good at understanding double standards, or being mean to someone based solely on their being different.
and it's not JUST the swing clubs, or straight community. We actually find that the gay community is often as closed minded about bisexuality as the straight community is...They think we're just whores. (which is true in our case...but what the h*ll. LMAO!)
Fortunately, We've also found a gay bar as well as a swing club that are open to bisexuality!!

[mrbandsatl]

shoreguy,

Thanks for the links - we have seen those stats before. The problem is that the infomation is for GAY men not bi-sexual men. But according to Masters and Johnson, The Hite Report and biresource.org, bi-sexual men and women have vastly different sexual behaviors from the gay population in general.

A few misc. thoughts...

• I sent the question to the CDC a number of months ago and received this as part of the reply:
  "Little is known about the population segment that identifies itself as bi-sexual as no formal studies have been conducted to date. ...the number of cases officially attributed to the bi-sexual lifestyle are insignificant..."
• What little research we have uncovered seems to point at specific activities that put you at risk such as anal intercourse, blood play, etc.
• Of the admittedly few men we have met who consider themselves bi-sexual, none engage in anal intercourse while all the gay men we have met do.

All just food for thought...

Happy new year everyone!
B+S

[Maus-Katz]

...and as such, they don't allow for the many grey areas. I consider myself bisexual, but as far as sexual contact with other men goes, I can take it or leave it. When I do take it, I'm also really only interested in oral.

I have always maintained that sexuality lies on a continium - at one end are the strictly homosexual and at the other end are the strictly heterosexual. But the vast majority of people are somewhere in between, whether they aknowledge (or admit) it to themselves or not. Granted, the curve is most likely bimodal (like a two-humped camel) but I still think EVERYbody is somewhat bi-sexual, however little it may manifest itself.

Just my opinion, flame away flamethrow

M

[mrbandsatl]

Maus-Katz

Interesting theory... The more I think about it, the more I think you may be right... We try to put everything into neat little boxes but when it comes down to it, life is rarely, if ever, black and white.

Bob (and Sandy)

[shoreguy]

Originally posted by bobandsandy
[B]The problem is that the infomation is for GAY men not bi-sexual men.

Nowhere in the report does it say that. Of course, the only mention of bisexual men is in hetero transmission to females, but the report clearly refers to "male-to-male sexual contact". It does not say homosexual or gay anywhere.

Not trying to start a flame war here, but stating that the statistics are about gay men without providing a reference from the CDC is as bad as stating the statistics exist without providing a reference from the CDC. I'm specifically looking at tables 16 and 17. The tables are full of notes describing the groups in more detail, but none on that section to say it's about gay men. "Little is known about the population segment" does not necessarily have any affect on those stats or the real risks. I'm not sure it matters, and I'll take it to mean "male-to-male sexual contact" rather than "gay male sexual contact" until I see something from the CDC that says otherwise. I take it to mean they don't record that tangential statistic, in favor of the relevent act. Especially in light of potential bias healthcare and public health professionals might have against men who engage in homosexual sex.

I'm sure HIV doesn't discriminate against gay men vs bi men. The issue comes down to 1) do they engage in the high risk activities (anal sex) and 2) do they generally participate with the same community as gay men (still the largest group of HIV+ individuals in the US). Regarding 1 sure, I'll give you that one. I'd accept that to be true for a large portion of bi men. Actual breakdown? I couldn't begin to guess. For 2, good luck. There's likely a lot of it for some, very little for others. Those bi-men who don't practice anal sex with men and stay completely within the lifestyle are probably as safe as lifestylers in general.

Rereading this, I realize I might be coming off kind of harsh. I mean no disrespect to anyone, and I am not a homophobe. We have plenty of gay male friends outside the lifestyle. I just wouldn't fuck them. This isn't about what I think about people, this is about finding and interpreting some statistics. The question *was* about providing statistics about bi-men and AIDS risks. There aparently aren't good ones. However, bi-men fit quite easily into the group "those who participate in male-to-male sexual contact", and there are statistics on that. No, it doesn't correspond perfectly.

[mrbandsatl]

I don't disagree with much you are saying. But you can not ignore the behavioral differences between gay and bi lifestyles and the behaviors generally associated with each.

My original point may be lost in all this fun dialogue. There is an unfair, but widely held assumption in this lifestyle that men pose more risk than women -- bi-sexual or not.

Assuming there IS a higher risk -- and taking into consideration the other threads on this site dealing with unspoken MM activities among maried couples -- there is a false sense of safety in swinging limiting activity to straight, married couples.

By the way - I think sex between 2 guys is pretty disgusting to watch. But only cause guys in general are fairly unattractive -- which I am sure my wife and many other ladies on this board would disagree with

[jcbicouple]

Originally posted by shoreguy

I'm sure HIV doesn't discriminate against gay men vs bi men.

Would like to point out that a lot of males have anal sex with women as well, and there is a false sence of security there. The most logical reason that HIV would be transmitted easier though anal sex is that it's more likely that there will be some bleeding (even if it's only a very small amount). When we have anal sex (husband and wife) even though we are very slow and very gentle there is still almost always some bleeding. Highly doubt that aides discriminates at all, and how many men would be willing to have anal sex with a woman at a swing club or during a private meeting. Sexual orientation does not transmit aides....There is an increased risk with unprotected sex and certain sexual acts.
Should point out that anal is something we've only done with each other. The m/m sex has been limited to kissing, touching, and oral. Would have to believe that the risk is no higher there, than anything my wife is going to do with him.

[shoreguy]

Receptive anal sex is just plain more dangerous than any other sex, at least with respect to HIV risk. There was a time when we discussed making it off limits for her with other men. We never made it a rule. It has happened at least once. I'm the only one that gets unprotected access.

I don't think anyone is considering it more risky just because of orientation, just that the entire group of 'gay men + bisexual men' is more risky because of the higher incidence of anal sex within that group and the larger percentage of HIV+ individuals in it. Personally, we felt the risk was acceptable within the lifestyle, even considering the likelihood of bi men on the down low. Once again, I don't think lifestyle-oral-bi men are really much of a risk. Maybe a couple more chances in a million than anyone else we meet.

On the other hand, I'm not exactly convinced that there is a huge behavioral difference between gay and bisexual men in general. I'm certainly not well-acquainted with that group. But they aren't the direct concern in my life, only those in the lifestyle, who for the most part seem to not be into anal sex with other men.