Shunning of male bisexuality

[windsor4fun2]

Originally posted by Elusive BiFem
Make any sense at all?

- EBF

I have to agree with Brad that this is a good answer. I read this thread a couple of times and wanted to respond but could come up with the right words to express my thoughts. EBF seems to have done an excellent job for me, thanks.

Jesse

[Chicup]

EBF did you ever think that maybe the reason men act like men and women like women is part of their genetics as well as their upbringing?

Being gay isn't a choice in my book or due to how you were brought up, you just are. My wife never thought of herself as bi BUT she always has always been turned on by 2 women together. I have NEVER been turned on by watching 2 men. Not even a little. Not even in the deepest darkest corners of my mind. I don't find men attractive, even those I know are 'pretty' and I have no interest in the least of seeing male-male sex. This isn't because my daddy bought me footballs and hand guns, and my wife got dollys.

Try looking at how boys and girls play. Even at ages where there isn't any societal pressure, boys and girls think and play differently. We are different to our core, and women are just generally more likely to be bi or at least, bi friendly, then men.

[imsnowman]

Although this idea does not address all of the responses physical danger may also be a part of some folks aversion. I know there are folks here who don't "believe" in AIDS but, for those who do, CDC statistics show that bi-men tend to have a higher incidence of AIDS than "straight" men. I know that it affects our decisions vis-a-vis male bisexuality.

[Alura]

Originally posted by Elusive BiFem
Make any sense at all?

- EBF

It sure does, EBF.

We're asked to understand gay sex and we try to but we also wonder why we, as men, can't say, "We're straight. We were born that way. We don't know why." Instead, we're often accused of being "Homophobic."

I have no idea what constitutes an attractive male. Mrs. Alura and I agree that an attractive wait-person deserves an addition to the tip based on "cuteness quotient." She figures the tip when we have a waiter; I work it out when we have a waitress. It works for us.

Mr. Alura

[Alura]

Originally posted by imsnowman
Although this idea does not address all of the responses physical danger may also be a part of some folks aversion. I know there are folks here who don't "believe" in AIDS but, for those who do, CDC statistics show that bi-men tend to have a higher incidence of AIDS than "straight" men. I know that it affects our decisions vis-a-vis male bisexuality.

Dito , IMSnowman. It affects our decision on several lifestyle questions.

Alura

[mrbandsatl]

CDC statistics show that bi-men tend to have a higher incidence of AIDS than "straight" men. I know that it affects our decisions vis-a-vis male bisexuality.

We are both straight but have had this discussion with a number of people in the past and this argument is always brought up but have never been presented with any statistical evidence to prove it. I have scoured the CDC site, and talked with a client of ours who works at the CDC and neither produced any foundation for the argument.

We DO believe in AIDS -- had two friends die terrible deaths from the disease... we are just careful about propagating erroneuos information that may be taken as fact.

And from a purely empirical standpoint, have yet to see anything to back up the argument that playing with single men, particularly bi-sexual men, inherently increase the risk of disease.

We have had several people offer to send post data from credible sources but all we have ever seen is anecdotal concepts from questionable sources.

We do not intend this to sound flip at all but if you have it, please share.

B+S

[leftcoastcouple]

Other than one being considered "sexy" and one being considered "gross" by much of society (present company excepted), I don't think there is a difference, per se.

But, since you brought up the topic, I find it a convenient segue--and to a large part, a contradiction--to bring up the results of the recent poll regarding what activities people partake in when they swing:

Full Swap, Soft Swap or?...

Honestly, I'm quite surprised that nearly a quarter of respondents so far have chosen "Full swap with all parties - MM, MF,FF,MFM," given that there's the other selection, "Full Swap with Bi-Female Activities Only," that excludes MM activity. And it's in the range of those choosing "Full swap all the way - no bi-sexual activity."

I'd never have guessed that the number of people open to MM contact would be that high. And if it's accurate, it seems contrary to what your experience has been regarding bi-male activity.

So which is accurate?

[Chicup]

Full swap with bi female only was added late in the poll.

[shoreguy]

I know it's not the CDC, but Red Cross policy states that they will refuse blood from men who have had sex with other men, whether they consider themselves gay or bi. They don't give any statistical basis for their policy.

I think it mostly comes down to the idea that unprotected anal sex is second only to needle-sharing for success in transmitting the virus. I'm not an expert on the topic, and I'm certainly not a homophobe but I do believe that statement. Condoms are not 100% effective at anything.

[shoreguy]

These are the 2002 estimated statistics by exposure category:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats.htm#exposure

It's at the CDC, and it does come out in favor of most cases stemming from male-male sex. Almost half of all cases in fact. More than 8 times more likely than men getting it from hetero contact. 5 times more likely than females from hetero contact. Female-female doesn't even register on the chart.

There's scouring, and then there's scouring. Took me all of 2 minutes. FWIW I found these stats from webmd.com pointing to the CDC.

These are only the basic statistics section, if you want to delve deeper see:
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats/hasrlink.htm

[jcbicouple]

Originally posted by leftcoastcouple
Full Swap, Soft Swap or?...

Honestly, I'm quite surprised that nearly a quarter of respondents so far have chosen "Full swap with all parties - MM, MF,FF,MFM," given that there's the other selection, "Full Swap with Bi-Female Activities Only," that excludes MM activity. And it's in the range of those choosing "Full swap all the way - no bi-sexual activity."

I'd never have guessed that the number of people open to MM contact would be that high. And if it's accurate, it seems contrary to what your experience has been regarding bi-male activity.

So which is accurate?

We have found that we get contacted by A LOT of "straight" males (and couples) that say they are bi but can't publicize that. It seems to us that it's far more prevelant in the lifestyle than anyone cares to admit. It also seems that the poll supports this. It just seems sad that clubs and people actually "shun" the males and make them feel like they don't belong. We were wondering why and how this happens. Why is it supported? There are many females that find f/f sex disgusting and yet they tolerate it or look away and it appears as though they are expected to do that, and not make a scene.
Also, Believe it's a very false sense of social acceptance for female bisexuality. Yes, it's accepted in swing clubs and is predominant in porn, but as the female of a both bi couple, I can assure you my bisexuality would put my career at just as much at risk as our swinging would.

[windsor4fun2]

Originally posted by Chicup
EBF did you ever think that maybe the reason men act like men and women like women is part of their genetics as well as their upbringing?

Being gay isn't a choice in my book or due to how you were brought up, you just are. My wife never thought of herself as bi BUT she always has always been turned on by 2 women together. I have NEVER been turned on by watching 2 men. Not even a little. Not even in the deepest darkest corners of my mind. I don't find men attractive, even those I know are 'pretty' and I have no interest in the least of seeing male-male sex. This isn't because my daddy bought me footballs and hand guns, and my wife got dollys.

Try looking at how boys and girls play. Even at ages where there isn't any societal pressure, boys and girls think and play differently. We are different to our core, and women are just generally more likely to be bi or at least, bi friendly, then men.

I don't know enough about the "nature vs. nurture" issues as to why we are the way we are and what our sexual preferences are to comment on that end but I think our up bringing and societal pressures have a lot to do with our willingness to express them. And how we express them. I may be wrong but I believe there are more men with bi interests than will ever admit it because it is so negatively viewed, even in this lifestyle. On the other hand Bi women are viewed much more positively even in the vanilla world. It is not surprising there are more women willing to express those interests.

Jesse

[Chicup]

Originally posted by windsor4fun2
I may be wrong but I believe there are more men with bi interests than will ever admit it because it is so negatively viewed, even in this lifestyle. On the other hand Bi women are viewed much more positively even in the vanilla world. It is not surprising there are more women willing to express those interests.

Jesse

I think you are correct in that there are bi men who won't 'come out' because its not accepted by the swing community, and perhaps I came on a bit strong. I'm always a bit put off by the assumption that being gay is a choice and the reason I don't want to be bi is my own hang ups. This topic has come up a few times on this board so old feelings come up.

[Elusive BiFem]

Originally posted by Chicup
EBF did you ever think that maybe the reason men act like men and women like women is part of their genetics as well as their upbringing?

Yes, Chicup, I have thought about the genetic angle. Those studies are everywhere from the textbooks to the newspapers to Time Magazine. The studies contradicting those studies are there, too. Nonetheless, it was a fine point you were making until this statement...

We are different to our core, and women are just generally more likely to be bi or at least, bi friendly, then men.

With that comment, particularly the words "generally more likely,"
it seems to me you contradicted yourself on what you were saying. If in fact we are genetically programmed to act like men or women, why then, is it "just more likely" women are more likely to be bi than men? Even if you had said that women were "just more likely" to be lesbian...well, maybe I could have understood that better.

My personal belief is that there is a component of genetics involved along with the nature/nurture philosophy. I hold myself as an example. I never had a single iota of a thought of bisexuality until mid-life. Much like you...not a single thought or inclination. No inclination because there was no thought. However, when the opportunity presented itself with a very close friend...one with whom I had shared countless hours and enjoyed a close emotional relationship with...well, it was like I said...a very short step to sharing a physical relationship, too. Now? Am I sexually attracted to lots of other women? Absolutely not. But again, that is no different than any of us - straight or bi...none of us are attracted to everyone we see.

Also, we started off talking about bisexuality. You changed it to gay. Do you see a difference? I do.

Sorry...I don't buy what you are saying in the context of what I wrote and continue to believe bisexuality is more in lines with my nature/nurture theory.

The only time I mentioned footballs was in saying that the "indoctrination" of our sexuality began at birth when daddy came home with football crib toys. And daddy's tend to do that. Pink is for girls...blue is for boys.

I'm certain you have more to say...and you always present good arguments. I'd like to hear more. I've been known to change my mind when presented with facts. Reducing this discussion to the fact that daddy bought you a football and your wife got dollys...I know you can do better than that. - EBF

[Elusive BiFem]

Originally posted by jcbicouple
We have found that we get contacted by A LOT of "straight" males (and couples) that say they are bi but can't publicize that. It seems to us that it's far more prevelant in the lifestyle than anyone cares to admit. It also seems that the poll supports this. It just seems sad that clubs and people actually "shun" the males and make them feel like they don't belong. We were wondering why and how this happens. Why is it supported? There are many females that find f/f sex disgusting and yet they tolerate it or look away and it appears as though they are expected to do that, and not make a scene.
Also, Believe it's a very false sense of social acceptance for female bisexuality. Yes, it's accepted in swing clubs and is predominant in porn, but as the female of a both bi couple, I can assure you my bisexuality would put my career at just as much at risk as our swinging would.

jcb...you are answering some of your own questions...don't you think that clubs "shun" bi-males for the exact reasons named; i.e., you are contacted by A LOT of "straight" males...that can't publicize that. And as I mentioned before, if club owners believe that male bisexuality is not acceptable among the masses, they will cater to what is. Until people start acknowledging those sexual preferences, it won't change. I mean, come on...if you are a club owner and can take in $10,000 in a night by "shunning" bi-males...or you can allow bi-males and take in $1,000...what are you going to do. As with so many things...bottom line.

As for other females finding f/f sexuality disgusting...I don't know about that. Maybe I'll post a poll here to find out. However, I do totally agree about the social acceptance thing for both men and women. No argument from me in that quarter. - EBF