The Status of the Bi Single Male

[NittanyLion]

Hi. I am that rarest of animals, the bisexual single male who is open about it. I've noticed that many swingers ads/listings are very clear; he is always straight, she is more likely that not bi and they are usually looking for another woman. There is an obvious bias against bi men which has made me have to state that I'm willing and able to *not* touch a straight male. Could have have an informal poll, how many couples would be willing to play with a bi male and how many would not? I probably should just never bring the subject up but I'd rather be honest about it.

[JustAskJulie]

I think that most guys as long as they know that you are bi will not want to play with you simply for fear that in the heat of the moment they might find your hand (or something else) touching them and ruin the moment for them. There is a massive amount of homophobia among straight men, and while it may be something innocent if they knew you were straight and you touched during a 3some it would be nothing, but knowing that you are bi there will always be that fear that you are attracted to them and may want more.

I definately agree that you should be honest. There are plenty of couples out there that are looking for bi guys, so you aren't that unwanted. It's just a matter of finding the right couples. I do think you have it easier than most couples who are seeking bi-females

quote:

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Originally posted by NittanyLion:
Could have have an informal poll, how many couples would be willing to play with a bi male and how many would not?

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We've only swung with couples, but once I and the other guy were watching our wives doing 69 and we started to stroke each other's cocks. Fiona and I see nothing wrong with guys doing that.

Ash.

[Alura]

We won't play with single men, bi or not and it has little, if anything, to do with "homophobia," Julie. This is a rule which was insisted upon by Mrs. Alura some twenty years ago and has never been violated. Mr. Alura has no fear of being touched by another man "in the heat of the moment." In fact, this has happened more than a few times in our play. It would be quite impossible, for instance, for Mr. Alura to eat Mrs. Alura's (or the other lady's) pussy while she is being fucked by the other man if he insisted on never touching the other guy during play. Since that is Mrs. Alura's absolute favorite, ...well, you get the picture.

By restricting our play to couples, and couples who only play with couples, we feel we take a much lesser risk of STD's, particularly the more life-threatening ones. There is certainly no telling where that single-guy's cock was last night and a lot of single men cannot be trusted to level about their sexual history. A survey we once read showed well over fifty percent of single American men were willing to lie to have sex. (The result was almost as bad for single women.)

A news story we read a number of years ago in "Time" or "Newsweek" told of a bisexual man, a member with his wife of a swing club, who visited a bath house while on business in San Francisco, brought home AIDs and virtually wiped out the whole club. We've forgotten how many orphans the incident produced.

We won't trust our lives to condoms. We are happy to use them if our playmates request it , to prevent pregnancy, for instance, but if there is an indication that condoms are needed to protect against disease we simply won't play.

The social group in the USA with the lowest incidence of AIDs is lesbians. The reasons for that seem obvious to us. The group with the next lowest incidence is married couples, who eschew intravenous drugs. We feel we can all learn a lesson from that information.

Perhaps by putting these restrictions on ourselves we are passing up a lot of fun, but maybe we can have some fun without making our kids parentless.

Alura

[NittanyLion]

Thus endth the informal poll. JustAskJulie's reply is what I expected to hear, that any contact, even incendental, between a straight man and a bi man would be assumed to be more than innocent (if that isn't too much of a euphemism). It's an attitude that works against me and all other bi men but one that we're going to have to live with for the time being. Most of the swingers ads and even conversations with singles and couples I've had confirm that there is a strong hetero male ethic that borders on the macho; that straight men confirm their sexuality by having sex with new partners and that they further confirm it by having sex with multiple women (sort of forming a temporary harem). Thanks to JustAskJulie for the positive outlook, though! I have found a few couples with bi-males, who I am greatful for, and some bi men and bi women singles. While there are some straight women who haven't been put off by my being bi, personal experience is that bi women are more accepting, probably because they know what it's like to straddle that fence.

Thanks to Ash-n-Fiona's post, it was nice to see a positive response. I wish I could have been there to ask you how you felt immidiately after the first time you experienced some male/male contact; did you shock yourself for trying it or did it seem okay? :-) In my case, I avoided it for a long time, thinking if I didn't seek out any gay contact I wouldn't want to try it. When I finally did have my first gay sexual experience I was nervous as hell but I think that was primarily due to all the negative pressure I'd put on myself for years prior to it.

Alura's comment made me think. First of all, it's nice to see that they are okay with male/male contact (which means that all three replies plus one private message I received were okay with it--suprised me since I thought there may be at least one negative message). I will admit that singles males have a rep for being so horny they will lie to get laid, one that is, unfortunately, deserved, so I can't blame Alura for their no single men policy. STDs are very real and it makes sense to take precautions. I do have a question about part of their post, though:

quote:

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We won't trust our lives to condoms. We are happy to use them if our playmates request it , to prevent pregnancy, for instance, but if there is an indication that condoms are needed to protect against disease we simply won't play.

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While it is true that the incidence of AIDS in the West (Europe and America) is a lot higher for gay/bi men than is it is for the general population, this is only because it was gay men who were touched by it in the West first. Just look at the pattern of spread in the rest of the world, espeically Asia and Africa; the majority of people with HIV are straight. Yes, I understand Alura's fear of gay/bi men, why take a higher risk? But by not using condoms with straight couples there is still a risk. Yes, I agree that condoms aren't great, that they can interrupt the lovemaking, that they desensitize the penis, that they are themselves, just by using them, a reminder of the STDs you are trying to avoid. If STDs didn't exist nearly 100% gay men would never use them with other men, including me. But they do, and all people, gay, straight and bi should resign themselves to staying wrapped until a foolproof cure is found.

Damn, this was a hell of a lot longer than I expected. :-) Thanks for use of the soapbox.

NittanyLion

[Alura]

We're not opposed to condoms, NittnanyLion. We don't trust them enough to rely on them to keep us safe from std's. We think there is no such thing as "safe sex." Condoms may make sex safer, but not safe enough to make us play with anyone who might have stds.

The reason for the high rate of heterosexual spread of AIDs in Africa and Asia, I understand, is the "piggy back" transfer. There is a much higher rate of other STD's than here. A person infected with the AIDs virus may also be infected with gonorrhea. The gonnococci (sp?) will carry the AIDs virus with it into the bloodstream. The sufferer will know he has the clap and may treat it with penicillin, but the AIDs virus lives.

We don't "fear" gay or bi men.

How does Penn State look in football this year?

Alura

I disagree with Nittanylion. My wife and I have been swinging for about three years now and I had my first bi-experience about a year and a half ago. We only play as a couple and never with single males that AREN'T bi. Our experience has been that most males are at least curious about it. That's what led me to my first experience. Many have already made up their minds at to their preference, be it for or against. And that's what it is, a preference. I get the impression Nitty feels like there's a bias against him for his choice. If guys don't want to have him in a sexual situation because of his preference, that's their prerogative, not their problem. I agree that they have to accept your choice, the same as you have to accept and respect theirs. But that doesn't mean that they're doing something wrong by not accepting you into their bed with their wife. When we play with others, we make if very clear that we're a couple, if you want to play with one, you have to be able to play with the other. If that's unacceptable, no hard feelings (no pun intended, of course). But, so far, we haven't had that many back out.

[Flori_DAMAN]

Frequently the subject of bi-males is intertwined automatically with the transmission of aids. I believe that there are many more "closet" bi males than most people suspect. I know of many that will go bi when in the privacy of a couple when the female requests to see a bit of bi play. You should assume that the men you play with may very likely have had some bi experience. Studies show that most men have had at least one bi experience anyhow.

A study (that I could if requested publish) demonstrated that those men that are most vocally critical of homosexuality are aroused by watching male/male contact.

It would be a wonderful world if everyone were honest but it just isn't so. John

[Quin]

quote:

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Originally posted by Alura:
We're not opposed to condoms, NittnanyLion. We don't trust them enough to rely on them to keep us safe from std's. We think there is no such thing as "safe sex." Condoms may make sex safer, but not safe enough to make us play with anyone who might have stds.

The reason for the high rate of heterosexual spread of AIDs in Africa and Asia, I understand, is the "piggy back" transfer. There is a much higher rate of other STD's than here. A person infected with the AIDs virus may also be infected with gonorrhea. The gonnococci (sp?) will carry the AIDs virus with it into the bloodstream. The sufferer will know he has the clap and may treat it with penicillin, but the AIDs virus lives.

We don't "fear" gay or bi men.

How does Penn State look in football this year?

Alura

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You are scary. What does one who has or may have had in their past, an STD look like? Do they have a neon flashing light on their forehead that says, "I do not now nor have I in the past had an STD" or maybe they're carrying little cards in their wallets that list any STD they may have had/currently have in their life or a physicians note stating that their last test(s) for STD's came back negative. Do they look like bums on the street? Hookers on a street corner? Do they live on the street, in trail parks, in the NoTell Hotel? No, it could be a CEO, a school teacher, a college student, even you, living in any community...there is no stereotypical *look* to someone with any STD or HIV.
To indulge in sex with ANYONE is taking the risk...as you stated in your previous post, people lie about sex, not just single males/females but MOST people will and probably do. You increase the risk of contracting any STD 10 fold at minimum when you indulge in sexual activity with someone and NOT use a condom. While not completely 100% *safe*...the only foolproof way to be 100% safe is abstinence, it sure beats unprotected sex anyday.
HIV can be transmitted by itself alone. It can also be transmitted with gonorrhea, syphilis, chlamydia, trichomonias, and herpes, but make no mistake if someone has HIV but yet no other STD, the HIV will be transferred thru unprotected sex if they indulge in such activity.
The theory of using a condom is not only to protect you...it's to also protect the other person from YOU! Certainly you can't possibly believe that you're immune from getting any STD because you indulge with someone who *might* not have or had an STD (please refer to your first paragraph, last sentence). The person you least suspect of being HIV positive or having an STD, may be the very person to pass it on to you.
Sorry if I seem a bit tough, but I find it archaic that a person would have the belief that they can have unprotected sexual contact with ANYONE , other than being in a equally monogamous relationship with a spouse, and not put themselves and their partners at an extremely high risk.

Quin

[Quin]

From NittanyLion:
If STDs didn't exist nearly 100% gay men would never use them with other men, including me. But they do, and all people, gay, straight and bi should resign themselves to staying wrapped until a foolproof cure is found.

No truer words have been posted!

Quin

Nittany,

Great discussion! I'm an open and honest bisexual male too. So don't feel alone out there! My first, and still best, bisexual experiece was with a swinging couple. If you can believe, it was largely initiated by the *woman* who wished to watch us men! I think it'd be nice if the swinging world treated male bisexuality for what it is -- something completely natural, ordinary, acceptable, even commonplace. Lots of statistics show that high percentages of men have experienced some sort of "bisexual" interaction at some point in their lives. Statistically, Bi experience is actually more common for men than for women. I myself never really considered being with BOTH men & women until I started wondering why I wasn't! I thought it might be "wrong" somehow. Rubbish! Turns out to be one of the best things I've ever done.

As for STDs, there are alot of things men can do together sexually (mutual masturbation, for example) that don't put them at risk of STDs.

So don't dispair, Nittany. There's more support out there than you (we) might initially believe.

Good Luck!

Thomas in CA

[Alura]

Hi, Quin!

First, let us compliment you on your posts and your wisdom. Your contributions to this forum are excellent and informative. You are absolutely right on this subject. But let us clarify...

We didn't say we don't use condoms. We said we would never trust condoms to keep us safe from STD's. Simply put, we would not have sex with someone who we think would constitute a "risk." To us, that would mean someone who has sex with strangers, has been active in the club scene, or someone, particularly a bi man, who has had experience with the homosexual community. That is not because we think gays are bad people; it's just unfortunate for them that an SAS steward brought AIDs to the USA and delivered it to the gay community.

We've had experiences with five couples in our 22 years together. All of them had been married and faithful for a minimum of ten years and a maximum of twenty-eight years. We knew all of them as friends long before we began having sex. Three became on-going relationships for several years and two did not. We always began the relationships using condoms but stopped later when all felt they were unneeded. We haven't played in over three years and won't unless and until we find another couple we consider safe. And yes, an STD test for all four would not be inappropriate.

We don't think we're scary. We think we are far safer than y'all who go to swing clubs and fuck strangers using condoms. To us, that is far scarier than anything we've ever done. Of course, you may be right and we may be wrong. That's why it is only right that each couple make their own decision on how to have "safe sex."

BTW, our flippant remark about Penn State Football meant, "You seem to be a nice guy. We can't be sexual friends. Maybe the love of football could be a common ground for friendship." Or let's just keep reading each others' posts.

Thanks for your fine contributions. We always enjoy your posts.

Alura

[ 05-28-2002, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Alura ]

[Quin]

I'm not quoting your post, Alura to keep the size of this post down.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this particular subject. I'm a firm believer in the theory that if you're not in a married, monogamous relationship then you should be using condoms. The only sure fire way to be 100% safe is to have no sex...or masturbation. Condoms are the best we have available right now for the prevention of STDs (If I remember correctly the last I saw, latex condoms with the non-oxyl 9 spermicide had only a 5% failure rate). I'm just not very trusting of people when it comes to their sexual life. Even the one couple I went to college with and have played with for now going on 20 years, I still require him to wear a condom.

Thank you for the nice comments. I always look forward to reading your posts...I find then very insightful. BTW, hope you find some playmates soon!

Quin

[NittanyLion]

The thread continues! I'm glad that so many have joined in with their opinions. The posts have been very well reasoned and civil. Hooray for the intellectual side of swinging! :-)

A quick note to Alura: Maybe I should have found a tamer word to use than "bias" when describing the anti-bi reactions I've found out there but I did due to the frequency and the, frankly, venomousness of those anti-bi reactions. Perhaps I'm just seeing the effects that living in a very conservitive, rural area provoke, a lingering homophobia (albeit a selective one--bi women are prized) that makes finding bi couples tough. I won't say that it's wrong for couples to be exclusively straight the same way I won't say it's wrong for others to be exclusively gay. I would like a bit more civility, though. An analogous situation would be if someone asked if I wanted to participate in a BDSM scene. I'm not into that and I'd say no, but I wouldn't jump down his/her/their throat(s) while doing so. I've had some very snide, nasty reactions from couples when they discover I'm bi.

On a happier note, I *would* like to keep posting and writing--having sex is not a requirment for being friends and you are obviously the kind of intelligent people I like to know. And, Penn State will be back with a winning record! Our QB, Miller, will turn the offence around! :-)

To Quin: Thanks for your positive outlook. I made the same assumption that you may have, that Alura (Mr. & Mrs.) were imploying a double standard vis a vis condom use. But I've done the same thing they have, stopped using condoms after being tested and in a monogmous relationship. Looks as if there is nothing to fear there.

NittanyLion

[Alura]

OK, Quin, we can agree to disagree. We don't actually think the disagreement is all that great. We want to be as safe as you do. We do probably practice abstinance, at least with others, most of the time. We're not really looking for playmates, but someday we'll probably find some. It will likely be at a PTA meeting or a football game, or waiting in line at a restaurant. We'll use condoms. Until then, we feel like we are the luckiest people in the world in our sex life and all of the rest of our life together.

Nittany Lion, thanks for the nice words. Once in a while there is a really ugly post on this board and it usually comes from a single man. We've been known to jump all over his sorry ass. You're different and we want you to know we appreciate you. We don't think there is ever a year when the Sooners don't think the National Championship is within their reach. Penn State has a similar tradition. Winners all! You, Quin, and a bunch of others on this board!

Alura

[ 05-30-2002, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Alura ]