Why the hatred of bi-males?

[BloomoCoupleFun]

I know its been spoken of here on the forum before but I still just "don't get it" when it comes to the sometimes agressive anti-bi-male attitudes we have encountered.

We could never fault anyone who is simply not interested in a specific play type (i.e. anal) nor wants it included in play. But why do so many couples (mainly the males) completely freak out over any mention of "bi-curious" or "bi" males??? Many bi-female seeking couples seem to have no problem with a non-bi female playmate -- why is it seen as mandatory for males?

Found the first elements in placing on-line ads and making the mistake of admitting "bi-curious" in our description. Next thing we know we get 2 warnings from Indiana couples (we live in Indiana) telling us "WATCH OUT! The bi-male police will be after you!" Both couples warned us that their own Indiana experiences were being "traced" by swinger club members who want to "prevent bi-males from coming to the clubs here". To which we said: "What the @#&*@&?" The folks we've actually talked to or established relationships with have no issue with it -- nor interest, which is 100% fine with us.

I just don't get it. I don't think its entirely an STD disease fear -- we had another couple tell us "no faggots" because I mentioned I was curious -- but had not had ANY bi-sex experience for over twenty years! And this from an "experienced" swinger couple who advertizes their own demand for bisexual females, their own open-minded attitudes, etc.; guess just forgot to mention bigotry in their descrip.

So could any of you experienced swingers help us out on this one? Is this just another wacky element of the folks in Indiana or is this universal in the swinging community? And why fer christsakes is having one bi experience 20 years ago someone pose a threat to non-bi males?????

Other side of the coin is the mini-flood of responses we got from "completely straight" couples who mainly wanted male-male contact! And the approaches are weirdly consistent -- these 'straight' males want to bottom for a man. And they usually do not want to just give a BJ -- they want to be mounted; yet still list themselves as straight. Our only guess is that they list themselves that way because of the anti-bi attitudes.

Just dazed and confused on this one... Makes no sense to see so many couples almost begging for bi-female action but who clearly have anti-male bi bigotry.

Are the other males just -that- woefully insecure with their own sexuality?

[northindycpl]

Originally Posted by BloomoCoupleFun

Other side of the coin is the mini-flood of responses we got from "completely straight" couples who mainly wanted male-male contact! And the approaches are weirdly consistent -- these 'straight' males want to bottom for a man. And they usually do not want to just give a BJ -- they want to be mounted; yet still list themselves as straight. Our only guess is that they list themselves that way because of the anti-bi attitudes.

Are the other males just -that- woefully insecure with their own sexuality?

Just my 2 cents... I think they do list themselves as straight, and can you blame them? With the receptions you have recieved? Bi-femme is very mainstream. It is wildly accepted, publicized and desired. True it is a double standard, but it just is. No one is going to think any differently, no matter what is said about it.

Since you are advertising your bi-maleness, and people are still contacting you with interest. Go with it. They wouldn't want to meet you if they didn't want to play, right? Who cares if they admit it or not, the play is still the same. Everyones definition of Bi- is something else. I have yet to see a norm with women, I doubt there is one that exists with men.

I have a friend who, in a playing situation, will be with women all night. She hoever, claims she is straight. I on the other hand, choose to think of myself as situationally bi. I have no issue playing with women during a playtime, but wouldn't seek it out, or play without my husband there.

As far as being blacklisted from a club? Indiana is the biggest small town around. I have found that clubs here, develop regulars and those regulars do keep tabs. But, I have yet to be in a club where they have asked for a website username? How do people know your a bi-male, and its actually you? I am very confused by your statement, can you elaborate?

[HotMoCpl]

Let's see if I can explain a couple of things to you about "bi" males. First off a truely "bi" male is one who has not truely identified his own sexuality. Often given to wanting a typical male/female relationship; children, family etc.
The "bi" males in the swing world I believe are those just looking for sexual thrills....good?...bad? I won't/cannot judge. As a male, I believe I could relate to the real "bi" male more then the sexual thrill seeker.

[BloomoCoupleFun]

Originally Posted by northindycpl

As far as being blacklisted from a club? Indiana is the biggest small town around. I have found that clubs here, develop regulars and those regulars do keep tabs. But, I have yet to be in a club where they have asked for a website username? How do people know your a bi-male, and its actually you? I am very confused by your statement, can you elaborate?

My guess -- and it is only a guess -- that the people who contacted us felt they were being 'tracked' simply via name and pic. As you say, Indiana is a big small town so methinks they are simply concerned over their names and pics. I mean something like 'Sally and Craig from Gas City" makes it kinda easy to know who they are if met in a club, you know? But that's only a wild guess. We haven't been to any clubs here yet so its not a big deal for us. But for some reason it seemed a big concern to the 2 couples that contacted us. Maybe they each have a concern over confidentiality greater than our own? I dunno.

But I guess I have to repeat back to you my own confusion over your mention of "... and those regulars do keep tabs". One the one hand it seems you're kinda agreeing/acknowledgeing the "tracking" of couples that way, but methinks maybe you just meant that any regular will track other participants. Just like being in a favorite bar or hangout, the regular folks are familiar and new one's get a curious eye, you know?

Really not trying to sound paranoic or fearsome. We don't care if some folks don't like us, that's life. Just cannot grok what the bi-male fuss is about, that's all.

And it is not that I am saying we think there -is- some sort of "blacklist", nor care a whole kaboodle if there is. Just still shaking my head not understanding the agression that even asking about the issue seems to generate sometimes.

Hope that makes sense... Not offering a challenge -- just making conversation with folks who's advice we honestly and sincerely respect; like you. The number of rational and terribly interesting people from Indiana we have seen on this forum far outweighs the negative ones, which is why the question was posed here and not elsewhere.

[kennyg7378]

Well, this is one couple with a straight female and a bi male and I for one, am damn proud of it.

We don't pass judgement on others and fully accept and respect other couples wishes. We feel that being comfortable with another couple is the only way to experience the lifestyle and we make it a point in telling other prospective partners well beforehand that male/male contact is not mandatory if you join us. In short, if it bothers you, please be open enough to tell us that sort of play is off limits. We will fully honor your wishes!

We have noticed that many people will shun a couple with an openly bi male. That is why we prefer threesomes with other willing males. Again, there is nothing that says male/male contact is required, and we will not be offended in any way if one prefers only hetrosexual contact.
The way we see it is that we, as hopefully every other couple in the lifestyle, are into swinging for the pleasure and excitement! Why else would someone want to swing?

Rest assured, we are not snobs and if our paths would ever cross, we would surly consider hooking up with you, male contact or not!!

[BloomoCoupleFun]

Originally Posted by HotMoCpl

Let's see if I can explain a couple of things to you about "bi" males. First off a truely "bi" male is one who has not truely identified his own sexuality. Often given to wanting a typical male/female relationship; children, family etc.
The "bi" males in the swing world I believe are those just looking for sexual thrills....good?...bad? I won't/cannot judge. As a male, I believe I could relate to the real "bi" male more then the sexual thrill seeker.

I'm real sorry buddy, but I just don't get your point. Personally, we think of most swingers as sexual thrill seekers -- we sure are. We are not looking for emotional nurturing through swinging. We're into the sexual thrill of it, and feel most of the people we've met are too. If we weren't interested in the thrill of screwing for fun we'd ask the neighbors to dinner instead (smile).

FWIW, I (male half here) don't agree that bi means undecided. To me it means more decided than most... heh...

[northindycpl]

Originally Posted by BloomoCoupleFun

My guess -- and it is only a guess -- that the people who contacted us felt they were being 'tracked' simply via name and pic. As you say, Indiana is a big small town so methinks they are simply concerned over their names and pics. I mean something like 'Sally and Craig from Gas City" makes it kinda easy to know who they are if met in a club, you know? But that's only a wild guess. We haven't been to any clubs here yet so its not a big deal for us. But for some reason it seemed a big concern to the 2 couples that contacted us. Maybe they each have a concern over confidentiality greater than our own? I dunno.

But I guess I have to repeat back to you my own confusion over your mention of "... and those regulars do keep tabs". One the one hand it seems you're kinda agreeing/acknowledgeing the "tracking" of couples that way, but methinks maybe you just meant that any regular will track other participants. Just like being in a favorite bar or hangout, the regular folks are familiar and new one's get a curious eye, you know?

Yes. I am saying that. I think because there are so few mainstream clubs here, I have noticed (and this is just my experience) that word travels fast. Most regulars at my club, are regular at the others too. It is not uncommon for me to overhear comments made about new members. And it is also two fold- Because it is easy to know who Craig and Sally are, it would be even easier to know what they are doing in that club environment.

[BloomoCoupleFun]

Originally Posted by northindycpl

Yes. I am saying that. I think because there are so few mainstream clubs here, I have noticed (and this is just my experience) that word travels fast. Most regulars at my club, are regular at the others too. It is not uncommon for me to overhear comments made about new members. And it is also two fold- Because it is easy to know who Craig and Sally are, it would be even easier to know what they are doing in that club environment.

It just takes one person to say they saw Craig at XYZ club dancing with another man, to then make Craig the 'watched' one at ABC club.And they will say it. A swingers reputation here, spreads fast in the wrong way if you aren't careful. I have seen it over and over again. Partly, I think it is because everyone plays together at the same places, almost on a schedule, because we don't have many options for good clubs. I haven't been to alternatives yet, so I am not sure about them, But all of the clubs like Reel One, Topside, Sharkeys (Swingers Bar) Layden, Shenangins- they all have the same customers, just different days.

Your mentioning of the bar regulars is pretty accurate too. Everyone is curious about the 'newbie'

But my question was not one of "is this done?" but instead "WHY is this done?" kind of thing. We have not been to clubs here yet, and now wonder if we want to. I am male and have never danced with a guy -- but think it such a trivial, inconsquental thing to not warrant any merit at all. I mean if an unexplained stereotype is -that- pervasive in this small world, we have to wonder over what others exist. Like if you are black you are tracked? or Asian? Or love feet or something?

And since I have clearly made by issue know via this thread and other public ventures, I must assume we are now on this "blacklist". And now we feel distinctly unwelcome at some places -- and we have never even been there!!!!

Being a 'newbie' in the swinging world is hard enough. You have to overcome very judgemental stereotypes placed on your by society at large, and you seek kindred spirits because you are sometimes feel "not normal" in the general population. It makes clubbing sound a little to be an "insiders clik" not open at all to new folks; and certainly not to new folks who fear not toeing an unknown or unseen line in the sand. And I don't think that is the case.

Wasn't asking IF there are anti-bi folks out there -- that much has been illustrated very well already -- I was asking WHY they are so agressive, so adamant in the dislike of others with different interests, that's all.

.

[adventureUS2]

As a man who has been know to engage in some M/M activity....I do not advertise on ad sites as a bi male for 2 reasons.

One being that I only engage in bi male play every once in a blue moon. I am not attracted to men. My wife loves to watch 2 men play orally and I have no problem fullfilling her fantacy. But I do not want to mis represent myself on ad sites and lead people to believe I am willing to play with the male half of any couple who appoaches us.

Two being that the number of bi males in the swinging community is very limited. I don't want my mail box to be full of folks interested in me only because I advertise as a bi male. I also don't want any staight men to feel I would presure them into playing with me either.

[adventureUS2]

I think some people might jump the gun a little and assume there is some type of anxiety or stigmatism against bi males in the swinging community. I am not so sure. It shouldn't be compaired with something as terrible as racism or intollerance for someone who is gay. Most men a very insecure about male play. Most likely feel if they persue someone who advertises as a couple with a bi male then they may be obligated to play with the other man at some point, and most men are just not comfertable with that. Its not that the bi male is being judged for enjoying play with other men, but more that the staight guy is afraid he may find him self in a situation he would rather not be in. When people use ad site on the internet to find folks they feel they are compatible with you use what little bit of information that is in a profile to make a quick judgement call as to whether or not you are compatable. Is this fair to bi males??? No But is it people being desciminatory???? In most cases no. Not to say there are not some homaphobic narrow minded swingers out there. But as a whole I think we are a little more open minded then that.

Jusy my oppinion maybe I am being nieve.

[Spoomonkey]

I am completely straight... Not because I am insecure, but simply because I know that I could not enjoy sex with another man... No how, no way. That's just me...

But - I certainly hope that I am considered an open-minded person. I would have no problem playing with a couple that was completely bi-sexual, but I realize that some bi-sexual couples have a problem playing with straight couples (just as some bi-fems have a problem playing with couples where the woman isn't bi-at-all). Personally, I am very comfortable with the incidental MM contact that happens during a sexual pile up - the inadvertant leg brush or whatever - and this would be a little bit less of an issue to worry about with men who are either similarly secure or just bisexual.

But, do I want to cross that line into purposeful touching? No...

Our club does not allow MM contact, and honestly, I think that is kind of unfortunate. When two couples enter a room and lock the door, I would hope the only thing anyone would care about (if even this) is whether or not they are "gloving up".

I'm not bi - but not because I have a problem with "bisexuality". If it fulfills a person's sexuality - and does not force itself on me - I am a big supporter of it.

I am sorry that you guys deal with discrimination. I can't explain it, other than to agree that some folks just can't handle the thought. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is...

Spoomonkey

[jcbicouple]

Originally Posted by BloomoCoupleFun

And since I have clearly made by issue know via this thread and other public ventures, I must assume we are now on this "blacklist". And now we feel distinctly unwelcome at some places -- and we have never even been there!!!!

The only club we have ever visited is Klub Layden, so we can only speak about what happens and how we are treated by others that attend this particular club. We are very open on our on line ads, and with everyone we meet at the club about both of us being bisexual. It's not always the first thing in the conversation, but we never hide it. We have never been treated poorly, run into anyone at the club that refused to talk with us, join our table, laugh with us, etc. Are there those that choose not to play with us because of our sexual orientation? Sure there are. Big deal. One of the things that makes sex enjoyable and fun is everyone relaxing and having a good time. Why would we want to have sex with anyone that we would make uncomfortable? We have played with straight couples, couples where one was straight, couples where both were bi, and both straight and bi singles at the club. We have never felt discriminated against, and certainly not blacklisted. Frankly, If people are talking details outside of the club about what you are doing with others (or who the others are)....You're going to the wrong clubs. Anyway.....just be yourselves. Don't worry too much about what others are saying or thinking. If someone is so close minded that they don't want to take the time to get to know you because of what someone else says, they probably aren't people you want to play with! Come visit Klub Layden sometime. We'll introduce to everyone! (Most of them are straight, but don't hold it against them...They're really good people!)

Edited to add: Great post Spoo! We have to agree. If the door is closed.....who cares?

[BloomoCoupleFun]

I might have been too overly dramatic for effect in making the race comparison. It was a cheap and handy analogy aimed for emotional effect, but one I'm hesitant to edit and withdraw or the thread gets kinda weird to follow. Also think I mis-read what Mrs Indy was saying and maybe took it defensively?

Regardless, it is refreshing and encouraging to hear these opinions... I'd normally fall on my sword and figure we had mis-read ques and statements regarding an anti-bi-male bias. But I've had the issue slapped our faces pretty directly -- not through this site, BTW. The animosity can get too tangible to avoid sometimes.

Specific example -- about 2 weeks ago we were chatting on-line with a couple from out-of-state. Just the usual exchange of pleasantries and polite banter, nothing sexual. About 1/2 hour into the chat the other female suddenly disappeared and the male says something to the effect of "We just looked at your profile again. Saw that you say bi-curious. We do not play with faggots." Wow.... ahhh... Ok.

Its that level of animosity that illustrates for us that it is a big issue for some people, not just a selective option. Because of that I'd be kinda reserved about touching a male in a club, even as a pat on the back thing meant non-sexually. We're the kind of people that occasionally touch people as we talk. Gentle touch on the shoulder, light poke on the hand, just spontaneous friendly contact is all, not sexuality in action. Maybe I'll stay safe and just stick to poking the ladies (giggle).

[kennyg7378]

I guess I can't answer that either. Homophobic maybe? And as far as being blacklisted, I say "who cares". We are out to have some fun and we aren't about to have that spoiled by anyone. Swing with us or swing without us, we don't let it bother us at all.

[lovefest04]

bloom,

I think the sort of issues you are speaking of are prevalent in a lot of racial issues. I'm truly sorry you're feeling this type of discrimination. You shouldn't.

I have also heard the "faggot" expression used when talking about bi-males. I think that men are scared of being approached or "hit-on" by a bi-male. I have read articles and opinions regarding gays in..., you fill in the blank, locker rooms, military, fox holes, etc. I think the feeling is that if your gay or bi you're going to be actively approaching and hitting on other men, regardless of whether or not those you're hitting on are gay or bi. Some really big insecurities here.

Forget that I haven't met many men I think take good enough care of themselves for me to even be attracted to them, bless the SO's who do.

In the swinging realm I'm really open to everyone enjoying themselves.

Yes, I think there is a lot of homophobia in our society. Mostly against men. I think this stems from a lot of male insecurity, but that's just my opinion. Why not against women? Women are as a group more accepting and probably less insecure about that issue. Again, just my opinion. And men, in my opoinion, are all for multiple women forget whether they are lesbians or whatever. In fact, I think men are more supportive of bi-females than lesbians, why, because we men think that if they are bi- then we have a shot at them and their female playmate.

For the record, I no longer promote myself as bi, because I have found it makes the first meetings more difficult. Let's be clear, I am also not actively looking to have sex with men. However, my wife digs MM play and I'm happy to oblige. So, I guess I am more situationally bi. If the other couple is in to it and a request is made, then let me at him.

We have also found that many men who would never describe themselves as bi, are very ok with MM activity in the heat of the moment. Just don't discuss it over a beer at their local bar.

Let's all get over ourselves, be respectful, feel free to set limits and to make those limits clear, but for gods sake, don't judge others for making different decisions. Frankly, it has nothing to do with you and will not effect your life.

I better stop, before I start on the Gay Marriage issue.

Love and PEACE to all.