"Enjoyed this experience with another girl but not ready to admit it"

[BigNikki]

Big Nikki here.

This is leading up to a moral question I need your help with.

I ran across this topic in the archives: "Enjoyed the experience with another girl but not ready to admit it."

I've been on the giving end of that situation. In middle school and high school, I seduced a fair number of girls and most of them weren't ready to admit to themselves that they could lez and love it.

I understand that and have full sympathy with it.

In college, I think all the girls I did had no qualms and no doubt about what we were doing; they were eager for FF sex, either because they were gay or because they were ready to experiment. But those other, younger girls I don't think were ready to admit it to themselves.

And some have seen my threads on a friend, a neighboring housewife who I've called The Wife Next Door, who I believe is in denial that we're having sex.

This is a build up to my question: Am I doing something wrong? Is this unethical sex?

Your advice and guidance are most welcome.

-- Big Nikki

[MN Tom]

If they are doing it under free will, I dont see the problem.

People have all sorts of issues that they are not ready to admit to themselves and others, this is no different.

[Chicup]

It took my wife several years to admit shes really bi.

[BigNikki]

Big Nikki here.

Originally Posted by Chicup

It took my wife several years to admit shes really bi.

Was she doing it, did she lez and love it, before she admit she was bi- ?

-- Big Nikki

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by BigNikki

Big Nikki here.


Was she doing it, did she lez and love it, before she admit she was bi- ?

-- Big Nikki

Girls were a turn on and she didn't want to admit it because it wasn't "normal".

So she did it but didn't want to talk about it.

[Big Rock]

When my wife Janie was in the LS with her H, one of the things that she enjoyed most was being with another woman. In fact, she soon lost interest in other men and was more Lez than straight. When they divorced, she found that she was not strictly either, and was attracted to me, but still wanted to give expression to her Bi side. Hence our poly marriage.

[funcoupledayton]

If the person you're seducing is married and her husband does not know she is playing with girls, that is cheating. If you are seducing her you are encouraging her to cheat. Before I got myself in that situation I would get the other girl to talk to her husband about her bi-fantasies and get the husband's ok. I just wouldn't feel comfortable deceiving someone's spouse. I know I wouldn't want it done to me.

A few weeks ago I talked to a "single" guy online. He was actually married, just not happy with his sex life. He said he felt that if he was playing with couples that was not the same as having an affair so it wasn't cheating. I asked him how his wife would feel about it. I think you are in the same situation.

Whether she identifies as bi or not is really irrelevant. She plays with people outside her marriage without her husband knowing, girls, guys, hermaphrodites, it doesn't matter.

[BigNikki]

Big Nikki here.

I guess I muddled my moral question, maybe by mixing in too much story.

Here's the ethical guidance I'd like from the board.

I'm seducing a single woman or girl, she's having sex with me, sex that should lead to us both having orgasms. But she somehow doesn't know, is ignoring, or is pretending she isn't having lesbian sex.


Am I doing something unethical?

-- Big Nikki

[MN Tom]

How do you know she doesnt know or is ignoring it?

Is she saying "BTW, we aren't having bi sex right now" while playing?

Or does she tape a pic of a guy on your face?

[swing.kidz]

Originally Posted by BigNikki

Am I doing something unethical?

Ethics are subjective...only you can answer your question. However, since you are asking the question, you must already know the answer.

I'll play though:

Do I think what you're doing is unethical? Based on your 'clarification' of only seducing a woman who doesn't want to admit to it as being homosexual, then...no. She is consenting and actively participating; if she doesn't want to live in reality, that is her own issue. If she goes home and beats herself up for it, then she has her own demons to work out. But maybe you need to look at it differently. Why does it have to be labeled so rigidly? Just because she is enjoying your sexual company, why does she have to admit that it's 'lesbian sex'? Can't two (or more) consenting adults just have sexual experiences without the categorical requirements that we are indoctrinated with? Furthermore, if she refuses to label it, how is that even in the realm of ethics? Who cares? I think you forcing the issue is the big ethical dilemma (other than what FCD has stated).

With that, I have to agree with FCD; if she's married and withholding this information from her spouse, and they don't have a prearranged agreement that they don't have to tell each other about such things, then you are violating the ethics of a lot of people in this lifestyle (including my wife's and mine). But, they are just our ethics; if they're not yours, so be it...hope her husband is understanding when he finds out.

[Ed & Bunny]

Now if you were still seducing high school girls then I would say you have an ethical and legal problem.

The reality of the situation is that you are not holding a gun to these gals head and forcing this on them. They have to have some desire and interest in exploring a Bi situation if they go so far as to kiss and take their clothes off. (or allow you to remove the clothes for them) As long as they are coming to you willingly and you are not pressuring them too much, you cant be responsible for how they justify having sex with you.

[BigNikki]

Big Nikki here.

Originally Posted by Ed & Bunny

Now if you were still seducing high school girls then I would say you have an ethical and legal problem.

Nice joke there. Of course I meant seducing my fellow middle and high school students, back in the day.

The reality of the situation is that you are not holding a gun to these gals head and forcing this on them.

Sure. They're willing and they could say no at any point. (Although who can say No when you're in the midst of sexual passion?)

But I'm still a bit concerned with the ethics of seduction. Mostly you're winning people over. But sometimes, maybe, you're taking people to a place they wouldn't want to go, in the light of day. Or, you're manipulating people to lie to themselves about what they're doing.

My nice side has qualms about the ethics.

-- Big Nikki

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by BigNikki

Sure. They're willing and they could say no at any point. (Although who can say No when you're in the midst of sexual passion?)

But I'm still a bit concerned with the ethics of seduction. Mostly you're winning people over. But sometimes, maybe, you're taking people to a place they wouldn't want to go, in the light of day. Or, you're manipulating people to lie to themselves about what they're doing.

My nice side has qualms about the ethics.

-- Big Nikki

I've known many people who lie to themselves to cover their own true feelings. People who claim to be poly when they are really just swinging but poly seems less 'dirty'. People who claim to be bi-curious when they are really bi. People who claim to be religious when they are anything but.

The issue with lying to yourself like that is that the lie is just to make them feel mentally comfortable and to hide from their own reality.

I don't see many non-heavily pressured people saying they are bi when they are not and acting on it (and yes if there is the heat of passion that counts too, you don't have passion without desire).

On the other hand I've seen a number of people who were bi lie to themselves and claim they were straight. Usually clinging to the flawed bisexual definition like a life preserver, that if you don't have solo relationships with the same sex you are not really bi. Sure they have anal sex with men, but they are married to a woman, and never had a solo boyfriend so they are not bi. Right....

So really I don't see an issue with lying to oneself being a moral dilemma for you.

[Lascivious L&L]

My feeling is that if they didn't want to go they wouldn't. People say so many things that aren't their true feelings. For so many "gay" sex, lesbian gay in your seduction case, is something they surely don't admit to even if they want to, even if they love being seduced by a woman.

The light of day often means the light of other people's opinion. In the dark where no one else can see, the sex is so consensual. But in the hearing of others, no, no, no, I could never do that.

I think it's not an ethical issue but rather an attraction issue. People who aren't honest with themselves as well as with others are less attractive to me.

Do you find the seduction more attractive bringing others to the "dark" side?

[BigNikki]

Big Nikki here.

Originally Posted by Lascivious L&L

My feeling is that if they didn't want to go they wouldn't. People say so many things

I hear you, and can't argue against it. Still I feel some qualms about taking people to a place they might not have chosen to go themselves.

Do you find the seduction more attractive bringing others to the "dark" side?

Very much so! I love seducing people (and I mean both seducing vanillas -- the best! -- and seducing swingers who weren't at first attracted to me).

John and I both, though I get more of a thrill of it than him.

I don't keep score, but quietly I pride myself on how many people I may have brought into the lifestyle, or just women into bi- life.

-- Big Nikki

PS: shortly, when I get time, I'll start a thread on some thoughts on seduction and also the hope of making contact with a couple I just missed touching.