"Sex at Dawn"

[Powerglide]

This book looks like it may be the new swingers manifesto. It's been featured in Newsweek and a lot of other places. It's written by respectable scientists who argue that the natural sexual style for human beings is MMF, or maybe MMMMMMF.

Anyway, here's the discussion of these ideas from Savage Love:

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July 8, 2010
by DAN SAVAGE

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JOE NEWTON
My husband of eight years confessed to wanting to watch me with another man. I found a guy, and he agreed to a full STD screening—at my husband's suggestion and our expense—so that we wouldn't have to use condoms. I was worried about how my husband would react to the reality, but he loved every minute—he loved it a little too much. My husband had sex with me after our "guest" left. I still had our guest's semen inside me. Is my husband gay? Is that what cuckolding is all about? He didn't touch the other guy, but what the fuck?

Spouse Expressing Concern Over Newly Disclosed Sexuality

"Far from being an indication of homosexuality, your husband's turn-on goes back to the roots of male heterosexual experience," says Christopher Ryan, coauthor of Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality.

Before Ryan walks us through what's so straight about your husband dipping his dick in another man's spunk, SECONDS, let me get this off my chest: Sex at Dawn is the single most important book about human sexuality since Alfred Kinsey unleashed Sexual Behavior in the Human Male on the American public in 1948. Want to understand why men married to supermodels cheat? Why so many marriages are sexless? Why paternity tests often reveal that the "father" isn't? Read Sex at Dawn.

Back to Ryan:

"Think about it," says Ryan. "Why would women have evolved the capacity for slow-building multiple orgasms while males evolved the orgasmic response of minutemen accompanied by a sudden disappearance of all interest in sex?"

Because—as Ryan and his coauthor Cacilda Jethá lay out in Sex at Dawn—for countless generations, our male and female ancestors, like our closest primate relatives (fuck-mad bonobos), engaged in multipartner sex. Females mated with multiple males, while males—so easily stimulated visually to this day—watched and waited their turn.

"Almost all of us get off on watching other people having sex," says Ryan. "Even if our minds deny it, our bodies respond in many ways, ranging from increased genital blood flow (in both sexes) to stronger male ejaculations."

By inviting another male into your bedroom, SECONDS, your husband—consciously or subconsciously—was inducing what's known as "sperm competition." Watching you have sex with another male made him more excited to have sex with you, not with the other male, and treated him to a more intense orgasm in you, not in the other male.

"So your husband's experience was very heterosexual," says Ryan.

I am a 24-year-old female. I've been in a relationship with a man for six years, on and off. I think I could spend my life with him. But I have a hard time being faithful. I have cheated on him with other men and with women. He and I are not together currently, but we maintain a long-distance sexual relationship. We say that we are going to be together someday, but he has no trust in me. I would love to be content, but I can't seem to go very long before I get distracted. Please give me some insight!

Don't Wanna Be A Heartbreaker

"Toward the end of Sex at Dawn," says Ryan, "there's a brief section called 'Everybody Out of the Closet.' We argue that it's not just gay people who have to go through the sort of brutally honest self-exploration involved in coming out. We all need to go through this process—and the sooner the better."

Here's what you need to come out about, DWBAH: You'll never be content in a monogamous relationship.

"It's time to stop bullshitting yourself," says Ryan. "You're very young, so, with all due respect, a certain amount of bullshit is to be expected. But you sound ready to move beyond this. Before getting into a committed relationship, you owe it to yourself and to the other person to be honest about who you are, and for now at least, you're clearly not sexually monogamous.

"And if you'll pardon just a few words of old-guy wisdom while Dan shares his amazing platform," Ryan continues, "many people your age misunderstand the odds of finding love in life. Few young people really appreciate that by being open about who you really are, you end up wasting much less time on relationships that are doomed from the start. In the long run, it's much more efficient to fess up about who you are and what you're really into from the get-go."

Who are you, DWBAH? You're a slut. (I mean that in the sex-positive sense! I'm a slut, too!). And what are you really into? Variety. And don't feel bad: You didn't fail monogamy, DWBAH, monogamy failed you—as it has failed so many others (Clinton, Edwards, Spitzer, Vitter, Ensign, et al.), and will continue to, because monogamy is unrealistic and—this is not a word I toss around lightly—unnatural.

"Maybe half of the people you're interested in will walk away when you fess up," says Ryan. "Let them walk! Those who don't walk away are a much better investment of your time and energy—both of which are more limited than you can possibly realize at age 24."

I've been with my partner for 10 years. I have lost all interest in sex, while my partner still has a healthy libido. We've agreed on a weekly "sex night." I dread it. We could call it quits, but we have a child and we love each other. I don't want to break up our family, so I put up with "sex night." It sounds depressing, I know, but the alternative seems worse.

Wishes She Was Horny

"Lots of wonderful marriages aren't particularly sexual or exclusive," says Ryan, hinting at another alternative. "Sexual novelty was an important part of our evolution as a species. But, as you and your partner demonstrate, we don't all respond the same way to the absence of novelty.

"You don't say if your loss of libido pertains only to sex with your partner or to anyone at all," Ryan continues, "but it's a good idea to eliminate possible medical and psychological causes before concluding that it's a purely sexual issue. Assuming it's just about libido, I'd encourage you to find a middle ground that preserves your family and the love you share but incorporates a more comfortable sexual arrangement that doesn't leave your partner frustrated and you dreading 'sex night.'"

In other words, WSWH, ask yourself what's more important: staying married or staying monogamous?

"If you can find a way to take the pressure off both of you, you might find a deeper intimacy with each other and a return of your libido," says Ryan.

I usually end with a plug for my podcast. Not this week: Anyone who's ever struggled with monogamy—and any honest person who ever attempted it admits to struggling—needs to read Sex at Dawn. For more about the book, and how order it, go to www.sexatdawn.com."

[fun4Ds]

I'm somehow trying to connect the dots of where I had read about some of this ? Its ringing a bell.....

I would like to think Chicup had made a reference about the fact that things were actually all good until the invention of "farming" that to me, seems to be when "ownership" came into the greater picture of life and sexuality ?

Thanks for the reference Now I'm off to connect my dots a little, or find I'm an idiot and this has nothing to do with what Chicup said .... lol

fun4ds

[funcoupledayton]

I love Savage Love! Best advice column ever!

[The Fuse]

I listen to Savage Love all the time. Whenever there's a new episode, it's on my iPod. In fact, it's the only podcast I listen to regularly.

[socolais]

He has a blog Sex at Dawn | Psychology Today

[Mr.GeekChic]

Originally Posted by fun4Ds

I'm somehow trying to connect the dots of where I had read about some of this ? Its ringing a bell.....

I would like to think Chicup had made a reference about the fact that things were actually all good until the invention of "farming" that to me, seems to be when "ownership" came into the greater picture of life and sexuality ?

Thanks for the reference Now I'm off to connect my dots a little, or find I'm an idiot and this has nothing to do with what Chicup said .... lol

fun4ds

Was it this article:

Monogamy unnatural for our sexy species - CNN.com

[SW_PA_Couple]

Pretty strange. Downloaded a "sample" of this book for the Kindle a couple of weeks ago. Went to buy it yesterday and it is "no longer available." WTF?

[Big Rock]

Oh, please! There are as many explanations of human sexuality as there are "rapture", dates. When are people going to think for themselves and not look for somebody to tell them how or what to do? Too many people are like sheep, no common sense at all.

[funcoupledayton]

Originally Posted by Big Rock

Oh, please! There are as many explanations of human sexuality as there are "rapture", dates. When are people going to think for themselves and not look for somebody to tell them how or what to do? Too many people are like sheep, no common sense at all.

What are you talking about?

[cocpl2007]

Sounds like it is worth the time and effort to find, read, discuss and... enlighten. We're always game for some new insight into this age-old issue of monogamy. And I won't even make any "Family Law" pokes!

[Chicup]

While I find faults with some of the conclusions of Sex at Dawn, mostly from an evolutionary psychology stand point, its not a bad place to start. I think The Red Queen does a better take on the idea.

[Powerglide]

Originally Posted by SW_PA_Couple

Pretty strange. Downloaded a "sample" of this book for the Kindle a couple of weeks ago. Went to buy it yesterday and it is "no longer available." WTF?

I asked the co-author, Christopher Ryan, on Facebook. He replied:
"This happened a few months ago. Took them almost two months to get it back up. No idea, but I've sent an email to our publisher. Thanks for the heads-up."

By the way, Dr. Ryan is very accessible and happy to talk about his work, discuss criticisms, etc. on the Sex at Dawn Facebook page.

[mikeb]

Agreed, fascinating book

[Big Rock]

You know, for a way of life that has been around for about 15,000 years, I think that monogamy has proven it's merit. In individual cases like my own, it doesn't seem to work, but it does work for the vast majority of humans, and has for a very long time. An old African proverb says ", never throw away your old beliefs, unless you have something of value to replace them with". We may be polys, swingers or any other group and new books will continue to come out denegrating Monogamy, but the thing we should be asking ourselves is will our own customs stand the test of time even a thousandth as well as monogamy has. Will there be swingers even 500 years from now? Will there be polys. Just because I don't practice monogamy, I don't see the value in trying to tear it down on some new-age whim.

[slevin]

Originally Posted by Big Rock

You know, for a way of life that has been around for about 15,000 years, I think that monogamy has proven it's merit. In individual cases like my own, it doesn't seem to work, but it does work for the vast majority of humans, and has for a very long time. An old African proverb says ", never throw away your old beliefs, unless you have something of value to replace them with". We may be polys, swingers or any other group and new books will continue to come out denegrating Monogamy, but the thing we should be asking ourselves is will our own customs stand the test of time even a thousandth as well as monogamy has. Will there be swingers even 500 years from now? Will there be polys. Just because I don't practice monogamy, I don't see the value in trying to tear it down on some new-age whim.

Have you read the book? This is not written by some shifty wanna-be intellectual. It was written by two highly respected researchers in this particular field. That doesn't mean their findings should be accepted blindly, but it does show that this is more than just some fly-by night opinion. You mentioned that we should think for ourselves. Well I can't imagine a better way to do that than to read the very well researched views of experts in the field. I can make my own mind up about it by reading on the subject.