At what point is a vibrator okay for a teen girl?

[lovinher]

Originally Posted by Ed & Bunny

Ok, I was going to leave this alone, but all the above statements are important. Since I seem to have been able to drop the heat and be somewhat non partizan about this I will take another shot at trying to get more of us to agree to disagree without hating each other.

I am going to start with Lovinher, not because I am picking on them but because they are they best start to my point. Education in general takes many forms other than talk or lecture, it includes visual aids, field trips, demonstrations, experiments, and on and on. So I dont think the topic of this thread has changed in that manner. It has become about what level above talk is correct for sex ed for our kids. Yes we all agree that a pretty comprehensive verbal education is necessary but its when it goes beyond that that the flames unfortunately start.

LFM2 States her position on where she draws the line and mentions the word that brings out more flames. ABUSE

I think the above by WonderWhat finalises the cause for most of all the fire here. Incest and the fear of those who are far more conservative and what they will percieve and what they will do about it. I really hope we are all in agreement on our thoughts on incest, and if you are not I will be the first to state I dont want to hear about it. Incest is a line I dont want to ever see crossed and I think is where Lovinher and LFM2 are worried whether they thought it conciously or not. Because yes, incest is abuse. I must say, thinking about it there is some shakey ground even before crossing that line.

As for the fear of what others may think or do, I myself do my best to try not to worry about it as just being a swinger is enough for some to label me as unfit for being a parent. But does that mean that the fear is invalid? No. We each have to deal with it based on what is in our own lives. I will admit it is easier for me as I doubt they coulod do much to me, but I know others have alot to lose if they came under attack by the more repressive members of society.

Now to Tadahiko, the finla piece. The quoted statement hits what I feel are two points that confict heavily in this whole thread. I myself am colflicted by it. First is the part of leaving out the toys. I myself have personal issues with this. I have a hard time with the idea of sharing to much of my personal sex life with kids. I just feel that it is not appropriate. I then read the second half of the paragraph and then begin to wonder how much we still demonize sex in relation to our actionds involving it. In other words, do we talk the talk but not walk the walk when dealing with kids. One thing to remember kids are not stupid. They may lack judgement and life experience but they are not stupid. If they hear us saying one thing and then see us doing another, what message do we send?

To finalize and put together what I am saying here I think we all can agree that we are all more open than our parents on the issue of educating our kids about sex. What we need to remember is that 40 years ago even that would have been demonized and possibly considered abuse. Today it just starts arguements but no lasting problems. The point being this is all new ground we are treading even in something as simple as talking to our kids. And even that is outdated as society is changing at such a rapid pace. Up until a few years ago I had no idea there was even a Polyamorous segment of society. I must quote some earlier posters to this thread that thank god their children are already grown. So its new ground we tread every day and we have little to base our decisions on but the minimal or complete lack of talk we got from our parents. (yes that is a generalization that doesnt fit all but one that I feel works here) Until and unless social scientists can get good data that is unbiased by older and religious ideals we are on our own trying to figure out what works best. We just have to do it realizing our own fears and making sure we stay away from that line of incest and abuse. We also must realize we are all different and a one size all approach will not work. I will not call Lovinher and LFM2 old fasioned or closed minded because they most likely have a method of parenting that just would not work with some of the others are willing to do. In fact it might hurt hurt the relationship with their kids by showing inconsistancies. I also ask those who are on that side of this uneeded fence to not be so quick to judge and use terms like sickend to my stomach. The parents who are willing to go beyond where you are willing to go need you to be there to ensure they dont go to far and go into that ground that is incest. Sort of like a mission control for the frontier explorers. If you accuse or act in a hysterical manner they will ignore you, But if you express concern and explain the full reason for your concern they will hopefully listen and evaluate what they are doing. But leave the judgements out of it. Be uncomfortable, that is your right, but remember what works for you may completely fail with someone else. Our own topic of swinging is a perfect example. It is not for everyone, some are more adventurous than others in the lifestyle, and none of us appreciate judgements form those who dont agree. That doesnt mean we dont need advise and a bit of a moral compass now and then.

My one and only issue is leaving sex toys out in plain site for young children or teenagers to see as the OP admitted. I said several times sex should be discussed when the parent is asked and not one poster said otherwise. One poster mentioned she showed her daughter how to use various toys-that could be construed as incest. Is it? I don't know. But IMO-yep...Fuck'd up. We even had a poster ask for details! I certainly don't believe the original question had any incestual connotations and I never accused her of that. The op did not ask at what age was it appropriate to talk about sex-as this thread has evolved into. She asked if giving a 15 year old sex toys was acceptable. I ask you to re-read it. She had her doubts and didn't like some of the answers. It seems the original question was forgotten by some.

on the other hand, this seems a bit too much encouragement for her to explore her sexuality too fully at too young an age. i dont for the life of me know how i feel about this even tho i knew this sort of thing was on the horizon.

Guess some of us agree with her after all.

[Sunswept]

Originally Posted by Tadahiko

As for how long is the "long time" my daughter has known about my sex toys, you would have to ask her. I didn't hide them when she and her brother were infants, which i doubt any of you would have a problem with. I just never hit that day when i suddenly said, "now all this stuff has to be under lock in key, or i will be hurting my children's development." the opposite would be teaching my kids that sex is a scary, secret thing they should fear. now THAT would be hurting my kids. Sex is probably the greatest human pleasure we have in life. i want my kids to see it that way as adults without having to try and dump a bunch of frightening dogmatic, dishonest noise about it later in life.

Wow! What an interesting thread this has become, and on so many levels.

Tadahiko, what a superb, sincere post.

I am thinking aloud here, but I feel above is at the heart of many of the disagreements in this thread, as far as I can tell. It appears that some think as Tadahiko does, and she has rationally, and patiently communicated the basis for her thinking as well as her experience. Ed and Bunny also have provided a calm and well communicated expositions of their thoughts and examples from their experience.

I see and respect that there is disagreement. Many acknowledge that "talking" about sex is a good thing but they object to going beyond talking and actually either providing a sex toy if asked, or showing how it's used, etc. And that is a reasonable line to draw. But does that mean the lines other's draw are "wrong"?

Will there be agreement? No. Can there be understanding? Yes.

The considerations so far appear to fall into three broad catagories.

The first consideration is that the law and the culture disapproves, or the culture has done so traditionally.

The second consideration is "That is just wrong", with no comprehensive explanations why being that sexually open would intrinsically be "just wrong" ("You've got to be kidding" is somewhat dismissive and I don't think it adds to the the quality of communication) so far that I have seen. But that makes this not so much a real consideration but makes it a judgement. I have no problems with people expressing their judgements, as long as they "own" their judgements for themselves and theirs. But judging others with scant knowledge of other peoples circumstances is crossing a line.

I think LFM2 did a REALLY GOOD JOB of setting forth her thoughts and judgements, owning them for herself, and telling us how and why she makes those judgements, all without impuning others. WonderWhat JUST provided the beginning of a more comprehensive explanation of why going further than talking could be unwise, what I have put in bold being a key:

Originally Posted by Wonderwhat

That line starts to impinge on incest taboos or molestation, simply because the mere association of something having to do with sexual arousal with something having to do with family members might be misinterpreted by outsiders, or simply misinterpreted by the teenagers themselves (Freud would have a lot to say about that, though that doesn't necessarily mean I agree with Freud).

This brings us to a third set of considerations: For a child or teen that is still physically and emotionally developing, what is appropriate? Could a developing teen (or adult) for that matter be physically harmed by a vibrator?? I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but I think it is an important consideration. A less clear cut consideration is: The law defines the line between child/adult in different ways, usually the ages 16, 18 and 21 being major markers. But in terms of sexuality, when is a person an adult? Most states assert the age of consent is 16. But are teens, or any young person that is sexually mature, tha5t demonstrates good choice, shows respect for others and themselves, have demonstrated personal agency and the ability to foresee and deal with the consequences of their actions -children? Or are they young adults in terms of sexuality -age not withstanding? Has anyone seen adults do things that would appall us -like robbery, rape or murder- if our children/teens did such things? Does everyone hide media from their kids that portray adults (or teens for that matter) doing criminal, violent, cruel, mysognyist or just plain stupid things ???

The Law. TheLorax pointed out to me that a Supreme Court decision nullified most of the sex laws that were on the books up to 2003. (Thank you TheLorax!) Under those newly old laws, much of what Swingers did and do now do would be illegal, and could be used in criminal, custody, court, divorce, abuse and neglect proceedings.

That decision DID NOT universally apply to Military sex related laws... just saying. Many people still think that changing those old laws was a bad idea and would love to see them come back, AND THAT IS WHY SWINGERS are looked upon as perverts.

This thread has had zilch effect on that fact and I feel any claim it does is beyond a stretch. Swingers are suspect in the eyes of the general public because of what they do -suck, fuck, DP, gangbang etc., with people outside their marrages etc., as Miss Sunshine enumerated. "Thats is just wrong!" Not only that, no matter HOW a swinger raises their kids, many in the general public WILL assume the worst no matter what.

An element of conflict in any discussion is a very good thing.
Shows everybody's taking part, and nobody's left out. I like that. -Elwood P. Dowd

This thread has touched on so many important issues of sex in relation to boundaries, I think to suggest it does not belong on this forum sort of makes me wonder if swingers have issues with examining boundaries. Yes, this topic pushes peoples comfort levels, but somehow we are muddling through. I just hope that members that have struggled with the same questions as Tadahiko will not be too intimidated by all the judgements here to post, no matter where they think the lines are drawn.

Originally Posted by luckycple

Be prepared, she asked me to show her how each was used and help her with them. It was an interesting experience.

Anyone here besides Miss Sunshine and myself curious about luckycple's experience? Was the "interesting experience" a "bad" one? A "good" one? Anyone want to know what luckycple learned or felt? Could cut either way you know if you set aside your assumptions preconcieved conclusions and just listen to luckycple's story ... just saying.

[Ed & Bunny]

Originally Posted by lovinher

My one and only issue is leaving sex toys out in plain site for young children or teenagers to see as the OP admitted. I said several times sex should be discussed when the parent is asked and not one poster said otherwise. One poster mentioned she showed her daughter how to use various toys-that could be construed as incest. Is it? I don't know. But IMO-yep...Fuck'd up. We even had a poster ask for details! I certainly don't believe the original question had any incestual connotations and I never accused her of that. The op did not ask at what age was it appropriate to talk about sex-as this thread has evolved into. She asked if giving a 15 year old sex toys was acceptable. I ask you to re-read it. She had her doubts and didn't like some of the answers. It seems the original question was forgotten by some.



Guess some of us agree with her after all.

This is the point I am making. Neither of us really disagree on the points you make here. I have already stated my position on leaving out the toys , and while I doubt the vibrator demonstration is incest it does fall into what I called shakey ground.

Now here is where we differ and where I think the whole thread went off. I quote you as saying "IMO-fucked up. Now there are topics here that need that kind of response. Particularly the poster that wanted details. That response deserved him getting pounded. But not the first. How would you feel if told something you did with your kids was Fucked up? I am sure you have made mistakes and I know we did when raising ours, but being told that would have put us on the defensive and we likely wouldnt have listened to a thing you said afterwards no matter how important or necessary. So I guess what i am saying is that there is a way to express your concerns in a manner that will get your veiw across without making the other person defensive and give them a chance to honestly evaluate what they are doing.

I think for the first post a simple " I have issues with leaving toys out and or giving anyone under 18 a vibrator" is an easy statement that puts out your point of view that you can add your reasoning to if needed or wanted. Nothing conrtoversial or inflamitory there. i feel this question is more of a persolan value/comfort one. Being able to read opinions of others and why they have them should allow them to make the decission that is best for their family whether we agree or not with what the final one is. I will always listen to someone taking the attitude of agreeing to disagree. With someone like that i am willing to really listen to and evalute what they are saying.

The second is a lot more touchy. Yes my personal opinion is right along with yours on this one, but that fact that it is ...well fucked up, requires a better answer. It is an action that should be reviewed carefully and not repeated. To go for it I would probobly stay away from bringing up incest but instead ask why it was necessary. I would even go to the point of stating that the daughter may have pulled one over on mom. Lets face it masterbation is a personal thing in that all women respond in different ways to different stimulations. It is an experimental process that each woman needs to do on her own. Getting mom to demonstrate was a fun game. By putting it that way i would hope that the mom would realize her error and anyone else reading it would avoid the same pitfall. And it was all said leaving any judgement out.

So its not just what we are saying but also how we are saying it That is causing this whole thread to blow way out of proportion. As I said this is an important topic and while the venue may be outside the normal for this subject, it doesnt mean that people out there dont need good advise. And by good advise I mean all veiwpoints.

Now having said that please dont think I am just picking on you. Its more that we happen to both be in the front row on this one and its easier this way. All of what I said here applies to all here in the forum if we want to be able to have civil discourse and be the good advice givers we strive to be.

[N8ture Girl]

Originally Posted by Tadahiko

for the record, i posted this question on this forum because i thought i would get honest, intelligent, informed, balanced responses from people who were not afraid to frankly discuss sex. such a place is rare, and i am glad to know that i did receive some well thought out answers. thanks.

BUT to those of you who say that my parenting is abusive turns your stomach and makes you "throw up a little" wow, that is pretty offensive and hurtful to me. i want what is best for my daughter just like every other parent. but hey, guess what, i am her mom and you aren't. raise your kids the way you think is best and i will feel free to do the same.

Ok, I feel the need to speak my mind. You have received many opinions regarding your question, isnt that what you wanted? Granted some may not be what you wanted to hear but its just that, their opionions.

I have a problem with the next pagaraph. As best I saw (read) NO ONE accused you of abusive parenting. Although some in society will veiw it as such. It was only stated that offering, showing your underage kids how to use sex toys etc COULD be a borderline issue that could involve Child Protective Services. Thats it. To me it is no different than a parent spanking a child. Some see it as abuse, others see it as a form of disipline. But in todays society it is consider abuse more times than not. A whole nother topic, but can you understand the logic here?
I also think that in reading other's opinions you may have preceived it as them telling you how to raise your kids. Dont let the heat of the thread distort what is actually intended.

I think teaching kids about sex is a good idea. It should be something that should be able to be bought up with out the fear of embarassment, punishment, or whatever. There is nothing wrong with being open about sex. However in my house, I would not be telling my kids how to use sex toys or let them watch porn (I mean they are rated X for a reason just like some movies are rated R).
To me porn is a far cry from reality. Can kids understand this? Do they, or will the be able to differentiate between porn sex and passionate sex with their spouse?

Lay down the foundation and let them explore on their own. <-- thats my opinion.

[xxoticangel]

I have followed this thread since the first post and have delayed responding mainly because I honestly don't know what to say without being hypocritical.

It does seem to me that a lot of "adults" have forgotten what it was like to be a young teen with horemones and emotions raging. I know that I began using a battery operated tooth brush and hairbrush handle in an attempt to extinguish my desires. If my mother had owned a vibe or dildo I would have used that too. I also know that I don't know how I would respond if my 14 yo daughter asked me to buy her one.

[luckycple]

I don't think this is the right place to share more of the experience. I was just making a point that it may not just stop at providing her with a toy.

[Alura]

Originally Posted by luckycple

I don't think this is the right place to share more of the experience. I was just making a point that it may not just stop at providing her with a toy.

Really? Why? It seems to me it needn't go farther.

Mr. Alura

[Tadahiko]

just a few quick clarifications:
1- if i thought EVERYTHING was appropriate for a young girl, i wouldnt of asked the original question. i do struggle to find boundaries just like everybody else.

2- no, i would never masturbate in front of my daughter, or watch her masturbate. that was never part of my question.

3- do i think my daughter is fully mature enough to deal with all the issues of sex? no. sexuality is an awesomely powerful drive and requires great care and responsibility. but i cant control the rate at which her sex drive matures. i need to address where she is. and if she is anything like her mother, i was all about sex at 14 an 15.

4- i will not do anything that makes my daughter scared of sex. do i want her to be scared of unwanted pregnancy? yes. do i want her to be scared of STDs? yes. do i want her to be scared of all the twisted people who will use sex as a weapon to harm others? yes. i dont want her to panic irrationally about them, but i do want her to have a healthy knowledge of the dangers. but i sincerely believe that i can do that without making her scared of her own sexuality. since sex toys really dont have anything to do with pregnancy, disease, or sexual predators, so i dont see what the harm is in being open about them.

5- yes, i do wonder about the physiological and developmental aspects of vibrators for a still maturing, virginal girl. that was part of the reason i asked my original question.

6- we think all sorts of things are "just plain wrong" just because we dont question what we have been taught. in the past, things people didnt understand were usually attributed to "god." people saw that those who had sex got painful, deadly diseases and came to the conclusion that god was punishing those with more than one sex partner. i like to think that we have adequate knowledge nowadays to stop preaching about what god approves of when it comes to sex. if there IS a god, he/she/it wired up every single human with a drive to go out and fuck with gusto so god is obviously pro-sex. why dont the moralists ever bring up that particular fact?

7- thank you for the considerations about the legal aspects of vibrators in the home. i frankly never thought about it as an issue that could possibly have legal concequences - never would have occurred to me.

8- i didnt GIVE my daughter porn. i did not know that she had watched them until she confided in me. (our porn DVDs don't lay out around the house, nor are they in a safe - they are on the top shelf of a bookcase in our bedroom.) i did not come down on her because i value her ability to confide in me more than whether or not she watches porn at 15. We later had a long talk about porn, the porn industry, sexual fantasy vs reality, sexual liberation vs exploitation, why some women agree to do unhealthy things sexually, and the fact that there is a lot of pretty twisted, disturbing porn other than the stuff her her parents enjoy, which we would never watch or approve of.

9- if the issue is one of "what will society say" rather than personal disapproval of my parenting choices, i have only two words: civil disobedience. society never changes voluntarily. someone has to make it change for the better.

[TheLorax]

An excellent reply, Mrs. Tad.

The one question I haven't seen answered that is relevant to your original question: will a vibrator cause physiological harm. The answer is; probably not. If you buy her the most powerful plug in model out there and she uses it excessively then it can, but battery operated ones don't generally put out enough to cause harm.

I can attest that spending the weekend running a rock drill and jackhammer will make your muscles sore, and occasionally when the handle was at crotch level it would make you aware that there is such a thing as too much vibration

[fun4Ds]

We had a feeling MrsTadahiko, that there was a good person behind your original post. Now we are certain !

Mrsfun and I both noticed many jumped on the worst of what could be going on. But the truth is good parenting isn't easy.

I too thought... where is this good advice from parents who understand ?

A few things we didn't see offered was HOW to talk and what to talk about.

Things like hygiene, excessiveness, privacy(our children's and ours).. What about peer pressure alone from TV, the websites and school. School is one of the best places to learn the wrong things about sex.

For any parent who thinks the high school prom is all about their first kiss and be home by midnight. Well I think you left your kids clueless, you failed them if thats your idea.

Take a look at the hotels in your area on "Prom night" Drive through a few parking lots.... Our daughter had enough trust in us to call at midnight and ask for a ride home..... She went with a well respected high school foot ball player, don't think you can't be fooled. You would have PUKED seeing what we saw.

How many parents didn't know their 16 year old kids were there ? THAT, makes us want to throw up a little in our mouths.

How about a rave party ? Ever seen what high school kids are doing these days ?

Have you seen the flyer's for how and where kids meet ? Your lucky if you have, they don't want you to know.... Ours did, they trusted us because they didn't trust those around them in the real world. The peer pressure is tremendous even more so today.
Ya know, people can think what ever they want to about us because we had to talk to our kids about masturbation many years ago. Perhaps we were before our time, perhaps we were Just in time !!

[couplers]

Not having any children, I have only one thing to contibute and that is whether using a vibrator is a good thing at all. My older sister uses them and got to the point while she was still young (maybe around 20) of not being able to orgasm without it. I come easily from regular sex and oral (although sometimes the guys use a non-vibrating dildo while licking me) and I want to keep it that way. I don't know if my sister's problem is common or not, but she wishes she could come just with her husband's dick.

[Tadahiko]

Originally Posted by couplers

Not having any children, I have only one thing to contibute and that is whether using a vibrator is a good thing at all. My older sister uses them and got to the point while she was still young (maybe around 20) of not being able to orgasm without it. I come easily from regular sex and oral (although sometimes the guys use a non-vibrating dildo while licking me) and I want to keep it that way. I don't know if my sister's problem is common or not, but she wishes she could come just with her husband's dick.

i have the same concern. my experience is similar, but i've come to the exact opposite conclusion. i have NEVER been able to cum easily by penetration or a tongue alone. dont get me wrong, i LOVE both of those, but they just dont get me off very well. from the time i first masturbated on, i have needed at the very least a couple of very busy fingers working directly on my clit to cum. i will admit that self-pleasure is my favorite sexual activity, but i don't think that it would be any different if vibrators never existed. i would just have forearms the size of an arm wrestler and arthritic fingers. discovering vibes was a godsend to me. i believe i can now enjoy the sensations of fucking and sucking much more for what they are, rather than working to 'get over the top.' when i reach the point i want to cum, i just reach for my 'magic wand.' fortunately, my dear husband is not threatened by this, in fact he thinks its sexy as hell (he calls me a 'toy whore' ...which is a complement in his book). the fact that Anna cums easily during sex and much prefers deep thrusting to toys means he's not missing out on anythng!

well i have now steered this thead completely off track.
we now return you to your previous discussion, all ready in progress.

[BiloxiCouple]

I don't know if this answer has been given yet. When she can legally go buy it own her own. I don't profess to know the laws. But I bet it's around 18.

Besides like boys they'll figure it out. What else is a shower massage used for? Ya'll don't buy your boys AstroGlide to help them do you?

Common sense has to take over some how. You teach them about it when appropriate. You don't introduce them to it.

[Ed & Bunny]

Originally Posted by BiloxiCouple

I don't know if this answer has been given yet. When she can legally go buy it own her own. I don't profess to know the laws. But I bet it's around 18.

Besides like boys they'll figure it out. What else is a shower massage used for? Ya'll don't buy your boys AstroGlide to help them do you?

Common sense has to take over some how. You teach them about it when appropriate. You don't introduce them to it.

Yes your right it is 18. But they could buy other things. Bunny's all time favorite does not come from an adult store. It is a norelco thing that is designed for hand care. Anyone, even kids can buy one.

Common sense is not the same for everyone. For some it is "they are kids, should not be having sex, and it will not be discussed in our house." For me common sense is to take a look at what fun4Ds says above and realize that something needs to be done to combat the peer pressure kids face and that we might need to be creative.

It all still comes down to the fact that they are your kids, and you are the only one to judge what you are comfortable with and what is right for your kids and the environment they are in.

[Tadahiko]

mrs tad here again.

sorry for reopening an ancient post but i had to share something amazing my daughter shared with me last night which i think lends some significant insight to this discussion and i think vindicates my position on NOT hiding things from our kids.

it turns out that the thing that prompted her to ask for a vibrator had nothing to do with me leaving mine on the nightstand. a classmate of hers at school discovered HER mothers vibrator a couple months back (in its supposedly secret hiding place i must assume!) she quickly found an opportunity to take it out for a clandestine little "test drive" while she was home alone one afternoon and was soon raving to all the girls in the freshman class what a mindblowing experience it was.

to those of you who want to blame my daughters desire for a sex toy on my parenting, how do you explain that my vibes out in the open were almost completely ignored by my daughter for years. it took some mother and daughter sneaking around behind both of each others backs to get her interested.

that is EXACTLY what i am unwilling to let happen as a mom.

and for the record she still doesnt have a vibrator at this point. but im still considering it.