At what point is a vibrator okay for a teen girl?

[NCfuncouple98]

Originally Posted by LFM2

This thread makes me very glad my kids are grown!

Our kids are not grown, and I may get slammed for this but I have been reading this thread and to be perfectly honest it turns my stomach.

I don't think it's safe to assume that swinger parents are that much different. While I may educate my children more when it comes to sex because, unlike most parents, we're not ashamed or embarrassed to say just say the word in front of our kids.

However, to answer the OP, At what point is a vibrator okay for a teen girl? When she's 18 and out on her own and wants to experiment. Will I coach her then or give her advice? Maybe, quite possibly. But at 14? No way.

We have a 17 year old boy that was sexually active with his last girlfriend. We were open to discussions, but we're not going to discuss positions, toys, or anything of the sort. IMO, they're still figuring out how to get tab A into slot B. And some things they do need to learn and figure out on their own.

And to be clear, I do not think this thread belongs on this board whatsoever, and agree with an earlier opinion that these types of discussions can give swingers a bad rep. Do you watch porn with your 14 year old children? On second thought, don't answer that, I'd rather not know. But I sure will not.

Mrs. NC

[prometheius]

Originally Posted by NCfuncouple98

And to be clear, I do not think this thread belongs on this board whatsoever, and agree with an earlier opinion that these types of discussions can give swingers a bad rep. Do you watch porn with your 14 year old children? On second thought, don't answer that, I'd rather not know. But I sure will not.

Mrs. NC

We don't have children but still feel the same way. Parents need to set examples, let the children make thier choices. Parents are parents, not friends.

[SW_PA_Couple]

Originally Posted by prometheius

We don't have children but still feel the same way. Parents need to set examples, let the children make their choices. Parents are parents, not friends.

Exactly. I might add. The point is not adolescent auto-erotica as much as it is the proper role of a parent.

~Michael

[lovinher]

I really, really hate saying this because I like this site and 99% of the people who regularly post.

I think there are those out there who were or are afraid to post their opinion on this subject, fearing they may ruffle some feathers and be marked-I could care less. We all know that it happens. Iv' e been here long enough to see it. It's one reason the little dots are BS-IMO.

In no way am I sorry if I offended anyone because I'm pissed! I have my reasons for feeling so strong about this and it's nobodies business but my own as to why.

I think this thread has hurt this site more than most realize. Think of the newbies, somebody exploring or vanilla folks who come here to learn something. What do they see? Swingers advocating giving young teens sex toys! Jesus Christ think about that! I wonder how many of you who think it's OK have actually given their 13-14 year old daughter a vibrator. How about a dildo? Lets here it.
How many of you have actually been in that position? This is how swinging is to be accepted in real world as many of us would like?

Nowhere in this thread did anybody state that is was wrong to talk to kids about sex when they asked, at any age.
Everybody seems to agree on that-repeatedly.
Our kids started asking at about 12-13 and they were given real life truthful answers. The original subject was about giving a vibrator to a teenager.


So I'm done with this one but I'll be back to ruffle some more feathers. You can count on that. Dots or no dots. How about some red ones?

[ArousedInterest]

Well I am sorry to say it, but for as little as I post I truly wish i had not posted in this one.
To heated for my taste I was hoping it would stay calmer.
So I say I surrender... Cause truthfully I refuse to tell others how to parent.

[Ed & Bunny]

Originally Posted by lovinher

\
In no way am I sorry if I offended anyone because I'm pissed! I have my reasons for feeling so strong about this and it's nobodies business but my own as to why.

Lovinher, I am not offended in the least. I may not agree completely with you, but there is nothing wrong with that. This is all new territory for our society and all of us have opinions. We have both stated ours. In time after tons of studies have been done mine may prove correct or may prove to be total crap. But its just my opinion.

And as for your reasons or how you choose to handle this issue with your own kids, you are right, that is your business. You know your kids best and what will work for them.

Originally Posted by ArousedInterest

Well I am sorry to say it, but for as little as I post I truly wish i had not posted in this one.
To heated for my taste I was hoping it would stay calmer.
So I say I surrender... Cause truthfully I refuse to tell others how to parent.

Yes unfortunately too heated. I doubt any of us want to tell others how to parent. The origional post I made here was in response to a person asking advice. Thats all I can give because I cannot know all the details of any family situation. I also dont feel one answer is right for everyone either. Every child is different and every living environment is different and only the parent can decide whats right based on those factors.

[Ed & Bunny]

Originally Posted by NCfuncouple98

Our kids are not grown, and I may get slammed for this but I have been reading this thread and to be perfectly honest it turns my stomach.

I don't think it's safe to assume that swinger parents are that much different. While I may educate my children more when it comes to sex because, unlike most parents, we're not ashamed or embarrassed to say just say the word in front of our kids.

I am going to put one last word in and let this thread be.

I think we are different in how comfortable we are to giving our kids good sex education. As you say we arent ashamed or embarrassed. But in too many household there is nothing. I do agree with your assumtion in that I doubt any parent wants to see their children sexualy active before they even leave high school and have some life experience.

This thread has gotten heated, and I am just as guilty as any other. We all come from different backgrounds and experiences and see things from that perspective, so no you shouldnt be slammed for how you percieve things. But since I have been in the middle of this mess I want to share our background and experiences and how we responded to them in dealing with our daughter.

Both my wife and I have worked in hospitals for many years. The thing that sickened us the most was watching 12,13, and 14 year old girls comming into the hospital to give birth. This wasnt a once in a blue moon occurence, it was at least one every month. So when it comes to a question of how old should they be for sex ed, you can guess where I get my answer. So we made the decision to do our best to see that our daughter would not end up like the ones we were seeing in the hospital. Our approach was made under the assumption that the parents did not have good talks with their kids for whatever reason, fear, lack of knowledge, or religious beliefs. We didnt assume lack of supervision, because unless you lock them up, kids can always find a way around even watchfull eyes if they are determined enough. We did do the same thing this whole thread is about. At 16 our daughter was given a vibrator. I cant say what discutions were involved with that gift because that was best left to my wife to handle. Our thinking on the issue: If she felt the need to experiment we felt it better that she did it alone in her own bedroom rather than in some boys room or his backseat.

Most importantly we didnt want to see her end up like all those young girls we saw comming into the hospital. It wasnt an easy decision, but when she startedhaving serious intrest in boys we gave her the option to go on birth control. We told her no questions and no lectures, but if she thought she needed it we would take her to the doctor. In all reality the no questions and no lectures promise would have been broken but we would have gotten her birth control. I am sure the stomach turning is happening for some of you at this point. It doesnt matter. We had the reality of the fact that children as young as 12 were having sex thrown in our face at work on a regular basis and had no illusions that we could watch our daughter 24 hours a day to ensure she wouldnt be able to do the same. Yes we could make it difficult, but not impossible. As I said it wasnt an easy decission. We did stress in solid terms that this was not our approval for her to start having sex and we wouldnt be happy with that choice, but just that we couldnt bear having to see her end up pregnant like those other girls. Bunny also drug out her nursing texts and made sure that our daughter got a good look at all the pictures of how fun STD's can be.

To end this story I dont know if it was our approach to the issue or just plain luck, our daughter waited till she was 18 before saying she was ready to go on birth control. I am pretty sure it was at least 6 months more till she had sex. Again that was more mom information I wasnt involved in.

So this is where my veiwpoint comes from. Experiences from work, followed by our sucess due to either luck or good parenting decisisions. Of course I hope it was the good parent decissions part, but dont we all when things turn out right. Would I recomend this approach? Yes. Do I think it is a good idea for everyone? No. Every child is diiferent and every parent is going to have their own comfort level of what they are willing to do. It all comes down to as long as your giving good advise and education on sex and relationships, the parent knows whats best for their child.

My only unbending statement I have on this topic: Avoiding or giving minimal or no education on sex and relationshonships to your children starting at around 12 years old is a good way to become a grandparent before your kid is halfway through highschool.

[Alura]

Great post, Ed, well thought out and delivered without anger or dogma! Well done!

Mr. Alura

[TheLorax]

I too was not upset or angry, but I chose to stop responding substantively to the folks who were getting heated. I respect that this subject trips some folks emotions to a pretty high degree, and in spite of what Lovinher may think, I, for one, don't think badly of him for it. I'm also not going to discuss it further with him. I'm perfectly happy to discuss other things with him or anyone else who felt and expressed themselves strongly. But I'm also not going to continue to try to have a calm discussion with people who get that heated about any subject. I have to do that enough in my job, here I can choose not to

[LFM2]

Originally Posted by NCfuncouple98

When she's 18 and out on her own and wants to experiment. Will I coach her then or give her advice? Maybe, quite possibly. But at 14? No way.
Mrs. NC

I'll preface this by saying I'm an opinionated old hide. It's just the way I am. So, remember, this is only my opinion and what I'd do and why.

I have always prided myself with being the kind of mother that my kids felt free and safe enough they could talk to me anything. We've always talked about sex, love and the emotions, and I don't know if it was because my upbringing was so subjugated when it came to sex or if I was damned sure I was not going to raise my kids in the authoritarian type household in which I was raised.

The word ‘sex’ could not be mentioned in our house. No talk whatsoever of sex or sexuality and we got our education on the playground, just like the other children.

Here is where I draw the line. If any of my children, younger than the age of 18 asked me for a sex toy, I'd not only say no, but Hell No. To me, it almost rings of child abuse.

Since I won't share my adult videos with them, why would I share adult toys with them? Talking about sex and sexuality and introducing or contributing to their wants and wishes is another matter, altogether. I am still their parent along with being their friend, but in the end, parenthood always trumps -- even to this day. It's my job as that responsible parent to make sure they are kept safe, fed, clothed, and loved. Nothing says I have to give them everything they want. That's not what parenthood is about. If I thought something was NOT in their best interest, I vetoed that action.

I am proud to say that my kids waited until their early twenties to have sex. In addition to that, it's protected sex -- even with their long-time partners.

I lost my virginity at 15, and no matter how mature and cool (I need to emphasize cool, cuz I thought was all that and a bag of chips!) I thought I was -- I wasn't. I'd feel they are not emotionally mature enough to handle it. I'm not painting all kids as immature or unable to handle the repercussions of this, only guessing that most kids are. Heck, kids are only kids for a little while. Don't let 'em grow up so fast.

I know others won't agree with this, and that's OK. It's what I feel I'M comfortable doing. In this case, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Tadahiko]

as the op, let me say this: i have been reading this and i was not intending to respond, but feel i must.

for the record, i posted this question on this forum because i thought i would get honest, intelligent, informed, balanced responses from people who were not afraid to frankly discuss sex. such a place is rare, and i am glad to know that i did receive some well thought out answers. thanks.

BUT to those of you who say that my parenting is abusive turns your stomach and makes you "throw up a little" wow, that is pretty offensive and hurtful to me. i want what is best for my daughter just like every other parent. but hey, guess what, i am her mom and you aren't. raise your kids the way you think is best and i will feel free to do the same.

i grew up with a very liberal, free-spirited single mom...ok a hippy. she never was ashamed of her body and she never pretended that she was not sexually active with her boyfriends. i grew up in a "sex-positive" environment without really knowing it, long before the term was invented. my dear husband, on the other hand, grew up in a dogmatic, legalistic home with parents who were so sexually and emotionally repressed and suppressive that i truly believe HE was the one who was in the abusive environment. i first had sex when i was 14. my husband first had sex at nearly 18. Is he more sexually well-adjusted than me because of it? i don't see how that connection makes any sense at all. if you ask him, my husband will say he is the one with the sexual demons to slay.

As for how long is the "long time" my daughter has known about my sex toys, you would have to ask her. I didn't hide them when she and her brother were infants, which i doubt any of you would have a problem with. I just never hit that day when i suddenly said, "now all this stuff has to be under lock in key, or i will be hurting my children's development." the opposite would be teaching my kids that sex is a scary, secret thing they should fear. now THAT would be hurting my kids. Sex is probably the greatest human pleasure we have in life. i want my kids to see it that way as adults without having to try and dump a bunch of frightening dogmatic, dishonest noise about it later in life.

i have always answered their questions about sex, war, politics, nature, etc as simply honestly and completely as they needed to be satisfied, and never volunteered more details about "adult" topics than they requested.
when my son asked us if Santa was real, my husband said "yes, but he's a spirit, not a physical person." our son replied "like an angel?" and he said "yes, like an angel." our son was fine with that. my mother in law was furious because we were "robbing" him of a special childhood experience. i was like, "what experience? realizing you can't trust what your parents because they deliberately duped you with a charade that went on for years and years?" i am guessing some of you would side with her on THIS topic, too!

as for the first time my daughter asked me about my toys, I believe she picked up a vibrator off my nightstand and said, "do you and daddy use this during sex?" and I said "yes." she put it down again and went off to something else. that was the end of it. she was probably 10 or 11. if you want to report me to the authorities for abuse, i will gladly send you my address. it should make an interesting court case perhaps i can establish a precedent.

i am trying to be calm and civil here, but you know what's REALLY "f'ked*" in MY opinion? a toddler can run nude at the beach, but when they start kindergarten parents suddenly scold them for nudity. thats downright cruel and hurtful to change the rules of the game of life like that. we have 'the talk' and give them the whole schpiel about love is a wonderful beautiful thing, then we keep any sign of our sexuality under lock and key. yea, THATS consistent parenting! (a little sarcasm, there)

the whole idea that that somehow sexuality is horribly dangerous from the age of 6 or 8 until 18, (then is somehow, magically, perfectly okay again) is just ludicrous. for most of human history in huts or teepees or igloos, children slept in the same room, often the same physical bed, as their parents throughout their married life, so they probably had a pretty decent exposure to their parents sexuality. and civilization didnt collapse.

i will continue to believe, no matter what many of you say, that honesty is the best policy. that goes for sexuality just as it does the "innocent" subjects. (case in point: who decided that sex isn't an "innocent" subject, anyway? i guess we do still harbor those boogy-man perceptions of sex as adults, huh?). there are no breasts fetishists in societies where women are free to expose their breasts...even to children (gasp!) the highest per-capita prostitution rate in history? victorian england, where women couldnt show their ankles and you could get in trouble for saying "thigh" in polite company, yet they had the saying that london had more whores than horses. i think there are more social ills from sexual dishonestly and deception and secretiveness than from getting it all out in the open. and if every parent is unwilling to raise their child outside of the screwed-up social norms, our messed up love/hate/obsessive sociological attitudes toward sex won't change.

Sorry if some of you disagree.

------
*i am quoting another poster. i would never ordinarily use this word in this context. why is it that something screwed up is said to be "fucked?" Oh, yea, i forgot, fucking is a bad thing. AND whats with the contraction? can't we spell out "fucked" on a swingers board of all places? Oh yea, I forgot, it's a BAD WORD and we might OFFEND someone! Nevermind that we will outline in vivid detail last nights double penetration threesome in the next thread. again, i find it funny, the rules our society has...

[Alura]

Right on, Kari!!! This all boils down to one thing, in my opinion... that honest communication between parent and child is as important as it is between spouses.

Kari wrote:

case in point: who decided that sex isn't an "innocent" subject, anyway?

I think most historians will agree that it was Constantine, the Roman Emperor who decreed that Christianity would be the official religion of the Empire. He assembled a group of scribes who compiled the Bible and included way too many (in my opinion) of Saul of Tarsus' letters. It was Saul (who later became known as "St. Paul") who introduced "badness" to sex, a subject that Jesus pretty much left alone in his teachings.

You go girl!
Mr. Alura

[lovinher]

As for how long is the "long time" my daughter has known about my sex toys, you would have to ask her. I didn't hide them when she and her brother were infants, which i doubt any of you would have a problem with.

Im sorry you seem like a good mother but have you and some of the other members actualy read what myself and others have a problem with and in what context? Your above statement says it all-since infants? THEE issue some here have has been about leaving out, giving and even demostrating the use of sex toys at such a young age. That, is the issue. But some seem to think this thread is about at what age it is OK to talk your kids about sex in general. That was not the question but it turned into the subject of the thread for the most part.
Not one single poster said it was wrong to talk to their kids about sex when they asked-at any age. Everybody seems to agree on that. But because it has been repeated over and over it seems some members think otherwise and the subject of the thread seems to have been completly changed.

[WonderWhat]

Kari,

I, for one, don't judge you. I think you're doing things the right way in general. Nevertheless, since I'm pretty much scared of what could happen if a pig-headed, repressed person in authority could do if he or she found out my wife gave her 14+ daughter a small, discrete vibe, I would be against it.

In our case, and just like you, we haven't flaunted our sexuality in front of the kids. They have sometimes seen us when they get up at night since they were small (awkward, though not embarassing), and they know that part of the life of mommy and daddy includes sex.

They have seen the toys when they've gone into our personal drawers in the bedroom, and once in a while a toy under the bed has been found. Since they've been about 10 or 11, they have known the toys somehow have something to do about sex between mommy and daddy, and they know it's something they will eventually know about when they grow up, just like many other grownup topics.

For most of us here, the line is drawn between the kids knowing about the existence of sex between responsible adults, and actively showing them tools or even techniques.

That line starts to impinge on incest taboos or molestation, simply because the mere association of something having to do with sexual arousal with something having to do with family members might be misinterpreted by outsiders, or simply misinterpreted by the teenagers themselves (Freud would have a lot to say about that, though that doesn't necessarily mean I agree with Freud).

I personally agree with honesty being the best policy, but hesitate to have the policy go beyond age-appropriate talk. And note that age-appropriate talk can include topics such as the comparison of current teenagers' value judgments regarding blowjobs vs. kissing (for 16 and 17 year-olds). If that conversation turns into a comparison of BJ techniques, or recommendations of lubes for handjobs, that's where we draw the line.

[Ed & Bunny]

Originally Posted by LFM2

Here is where I draw the line. If any of my children, younger than the age of 18 asked me for a sex toy, I'd not only say no, but Hell No. To me, it almost rings of child abuse.

Originally Posted by Tadahiko

As for how long is the "long time" my daughter has known about my sex toys, you would have to ask her. I didn't hide them when she and her brother were infants, which i doubt any of you would have a problem with. I just never hit that day when i suddenly said, "now all this stuff has to be under lock in key, or i will be hurting my children's development." the opposite would be teaching my kids that sex is a scary, secret thing they should fear. now THAT would be hurting my kids. Sex is probably the greatest human pleasure we have in life. i want my kids to see it that way as adults without having to try and dump a bunch of frightening dogmatic, dishonest noise about it later in life.

Originally Posted by lovinher

Im sorry you seem like a good mother but have you and some of the other members actualy read what myself and others have a problem with and in what context? Your above statement says it all-since infants? THEE issue some here have has been about leaving out, giving and even demostrating the use of sex toys at such a young age. That, is the issue. But some seem to think this thread is about at what age it is OK to talk your kids about sex in general. That was not the question but it turned into the subject of the thread for the most part.
Not one single poster said it was wrong to talk to their kids about sex when they asked-at any age. Everybody seems to agree on that. But because it has been repeated over and over it seems some members think otherwise and the subject of the thread seems to have been completly changed.

Originally Posted by WonderWhat

That line starts to impinge on incest taboos or molestation, simply because the mere association of something having to do with sexual arousal with something having to do with family members might be misinterpreted by outsiders, or simply misinterpreted by the teenagers themselves (Freud would have a lot to say about that, though that doesn't necessarily mean I agree with Freud).

Ok, I was going to leave this alone, but all the above statements are important. Since I seem to have been able to drop the heat and be somewhat non partizan about this I will take another shot at trying to get more of us to agree to disagree without hating each other.

I am going to start with Lovinher, not because I am picking on them but because they are they best start to my point. Education in general takes many forms other than talk or lecture, it includes visual aids, field trips, demonstrations, experiments, and on and on. So I dont think the topic of this thread has changed in that manner. It has become about what level above talk is correct for sex ed for our kids. Yes we all agree that a pretty comprehensive verbal education is necessary but its when it goes beyond that that the flames unfortunately start.

LFM2 States her position on where she draws the line and mentions the word that brings out more flames. ABUSE

I think the above by WonderWhat finalises the cause for most of all the fire here. Incest and the fear of those who are far more conservative and what they will percieve and what they will do about it. I really hope we are all in agreement on our thoughts on incest, and if you are not I will be the first to state I dont want to hear about it. Incest is a line I dont want to ever see crossed and I think is where Lovinher and LFM2 are worried whether they thought it conciously or not. Because yes, incest is abuse. I must say, thinking about it there is some shakey ground even before crossing that line.

As for the fear of what others may think or do, I myself do my best to try not to worry about it as just being a swinger is enough for some to label me as unfit for being a parent. But does that mean that the fear is invalid? No. We each have to deal with it based on what is in our own lives. I will admit it is easier for me as I doubt they coulod do much to me, but I know others have alot to lose if they came under attack by the more repressive members of society.

Now to Tadahiko, the final piece. The quoted statement hits what I feel are two points that confict heavily in this whole thread. I myself am colflicted by it. First is the part of leaving out the toys. I myself have personal issues with this. I have a hard time with the idea of sharing to much of my personal sex life with kids. I just feel that it is not appropriate. I then read the second half of the paragraph and then begin to wonder how much we still demonize sex in relation to our actionds involving it. In other words, do we talk the talk but not walk the walk when dealing with kids. One thing to remember kids are not stupid. They may lack judgement and life experience but they are not stupid. If they hear us saying one thing and then see us doing another, what message do we send?

To finalize and put together what I am saying here I think we all can agree that we are all more open than our parents on the issue of educating our kids about sex. What we need to remember is that 40 years ago even that would have been demonized and possibly considered abuse. Today it just starts arguements but no lasting problems. The point being this is all new ground we are treading even in something as simple as talking to our kids. And even that is outdated as society is changing at such a rapid pace. Up until a few years ago I had no idea there was even a Polyamorous segment of society. I must quote some earlier posters to this thread that thank god their children are already grown. So its new ground we tread every day and we have little to base our decisions on but the minimal or complete lack of talk we got from our parents. (yes that is a generalization that doesnt fit all but one that I feel works here) Until and unless social scientists can get good data that is unbiased by older and religious ideals we are on our own trying to figure out what works best. We just have to do it realizing our own fears and making sure we stay away from that line of incest and abuse. We also must realize we are all different and a one size all approach will not work. I will not call Lovinher and LFM2 old fasioned or closed minded because they most likely have a method of parenting that just would not work with some of the others are willing to do. In fact it might hurt hurt the relationship with their kids by showing inconsistancies. I also ask those who are on that side of this uneeded fence to not be so quick to judge and use terms like sickend to my stomach. The parents who are willing to go beyond where you are willing to go need you to be there to ensure they dont go to far and go into that ground that is incest. Sort of like a mission control for the frontier explorers. If you accuse or act in a hysterical manner they will ignore you, But if you express concern and explain the full reason for your concern they will hopefully listen and evaluate what they are doing. But leave the judgements out of it. Be uncomfortable, that is your right, but remember what works for you may completely fail with someone else. Our own topic of swinging is a perfect example. It is not for everyone, some are more adventurous than others in the lifestyle, and none of us appreciate judgements form those who dont agree. That doesnt mean we dont need advise and a bit of a moral compass now and then.

I may be beating my head against the wall by posting again, but for the reasons I stated in my story in the last post this topic is very important to me. If we as swingers and polyamorous (the most sexualy open segment of society)cannot find a way discuss this issue in a productive civil manner I feel all hope is lost for dealing with our future generations. I see the continuing long line of teen pregnancies and rising STD rates going on while the supposed adults bicker and fight like the kids we need to be helping. They see us fighting and go do their own thing without the advise they need to make good decisions. The children of those of us here do have an advantage but the rest dont.