At what point is a vibrator okay for a teen girl?

[PB&J]

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

There were some things in this thread about underage kids that made me throw up in my mouth a little.

I agree with Tybee Swing on this.

[lovinher]

Mrs tad here with a sticky question.

i have never hidden my vibrators at home. (i have a LOT of them). my 15 year old daughter has known what they are for and how they get used for a long time.

I gave my daughter (who lives with her mother) a pocket rocket when she was just 14. Had amazon mail it to her with a gift note, in which I referenced the scarlet teen website.

A couple of months later she asked me about rechargeable batteries for her "device" (as her brother had prepossessed his charger), so it was getting use.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I have a problem with this and I hope the reason is obvious.

Great topic for the SWINGERS BOARD.

[PB&J]

I don't think that you're old-fashioned, lovinher, I think that your response is reasonable. As a professional who is in contact with adolescents, I have to say that in my opinion some of the things that have been discussed in this thread are issues that I would be required by law to report if the adolescent in question was under the age of 16. If I became aware that a child under my care was exposed to an abusive situation, and did not report it, I would be liable. Sexual abuse can be defined as "exposing a child to any sexual activity or behaviour." Certainly if investigators came to a home and found vibrators and porn tapes not securely hidden away from children, there would be a big problem.

And in this case, I agree with the law. I've tried writing a response to this thread several times, and don't know how to do it without sounding uptight or offensive to other board members, because this really bothers me.

[Additude]

PB&J,

I think you should just do it. I would personally like to hear a more conserative view on this subject.

These people are adults here and should be able to absorb any words anyone has to say.....they are after all, just words....and a point of view, non-threatning and nothing more.

[TheLorax]

Originally Posted by Additude

PB&J,

I think you should just do it. I would personally like to hear a more conserative view on this subject.

These people are adults here and should be able to absorb any words anyone has to say.....they are after all, just words....and a point of view, non-threatning and nothing more.

I agree. I would like to hear your point of view too. I've worked with sex and sexuality education and crisis intervention for teens and abuse victims and I note two most common themes (there are several that I note but these are most relevant). The first is when the victim was kept in or had a total ignorance about sex and sexuality and the abuser(s) made the victim feel that what they were the ones instigating the "wrong" things or were made to feel it was their "duty." This could be abusers who were either in positions of trust or authority with the victim, or who were involved in the victim's own explorations of their sexuality (peer pressure sex). The other common theme was under the guise of "educating" the victim by a person or persons who were in positions of authority over the victim.

The latter point is where there are both fine line and fuzzy area distinctions that I think make the most people uncomfortable. I think the former is one where most people can agree there's some pretty clear cut lines.

As a healthcare provider I too have the same legal obligation to report suspected abuse, but there are no clear cut guidelines for the gray areas, and I think that overreactions can cause just as much harm as underreactions.

Developing sexuality in adolescents is an extremely powerful drive and it is not an area of human growth that is to be taken lightly as it has repercussions that resonate down through time. I think like many areas of parenting, you can't have clear cut answers because each situation is completely unique and what can harm one child can be the exact right thing for another. So I'm always interested to hear well reasoned thoughts on the topic, even if they may not agree with my own.

[PB&J]

The problem is that I don't know how to express this with seeming uptight I guess. I was raised by a dear, sweet wonderful woman who is horrified by any type of sexual expression, not for religious reasons but just out of a very deep and innate modesty. I learned the facts of life from a pamphlet handed to me by my older sister when I was 11. Obviously I would have appreciated a more liberated sex education myself. I think that it is the responsibility of parents to give their children a healthy attitude towards sex, and I have certainly tried to do that for my sons. Without a doubt my attitude towards sex is not the same as my mother's, or I wouldn't have my current hobby.

Porn is not part of a healthy sex education for children. And I don't care how mature they think they are, a 15-year-old is still a child. Porn is fantasy, not reality, and it helps to have a knowledge of the reality of sex before being exposed to the fantasy. Otherwise, a child is going to end up with a pretty extreme view of what sex is. Yes, we all sneaked peeks at the magazines and read the dirty bits in the books, but there's a difference between that and being able to watch porn whenever you want, absorbing those images and attitudes without the balance of knowing what the reality is. And certainly teenage girls have enough body image issues to deal without adding in the standards set by porn actresses. While it is readily available these days in the wide wide world in a way we could never have imagined when we were kids, does that mean that as parents we give up and relax the standards in our own home as well? Do we leave graphic sexual images, or the evidence of sexual activity such as vibrators, where children can't escape it, or do we create a space where children don't have to deal with sexuality all the time?

While I did have intense curiosity about sex, and not enough outlets to explore it, at least I was able to go into my first sexual experience with a sense that this was something new and exciting and fresh, and not something that I already developed too jaded a palate for through too much exposure. SHOULD adolescent sexual exploration and expression have that much input from parents? After all, isn't the start of one's sexual adventures, no matter how tame, part of growing up and away from your parents and becoming an independent human being?

While it is great to be able to discuss issues like this with a parent, this whole vibrator thing seems a bit much. They're sex toys, right? A mother helping her 15 yr old daughter use a sex toy? A father sending his 14 yr old daughter a sex toy? How does that sound? If a child under my care mentioned one of these things, I would think twice, probably ask the advice of someone else, maybe do nothing out of the fear of overreacting but still be uneasy about it. There are others who would report it. And they would justify it by pointing to cases where such actions had been "grooming" of the child for sexual exploitation (I have a male friend who was abused by a female relative in that way). Even if your motives are as pure as the driven snow, the rest of the world may not be as impressed.

We can all agree that sex is a wonderful thing, I think. and we would all agree that we want our children to grow up with a healthy attitude towards sex. The question is how we help them develop that healthy attitude without going too far.

[realcplub2]

Let me ask you all a question, what the date down in the corner?

Hello? Is this thing ON??? Umm.. are you browsing this via a PHONE or a PC, or a laptop?

Its 2009, We can act "shocked" at some of the things that have come up in this thread, but reality is, its not the 60's, 70's or 80's... its 2009.. Look over to CNN, or google, and search out what the "new" good night kiss is..

We live in a society where yes, pre teens and early teenagers are sexually active.. is it right, NO.. But its happening, the best defense is a good offense.. a 15 yr old, asking about a vibrator.. let me ask this question, would prefer that question or one asking about what to do IF her monthly friend didnt make its usual appearance, because,"everybody else is doing IT"? We are lucky, in one respect, the older two, were/ are virgins until after the age of 19.. the 14 yr old is way ahead of his time..

Now As i just explained, we are the parents of three, and let me tell you one fact that is being missed.. Regardless of how under lock and key somethings are.. if they want to, "snoop" they will. Ours found our locked toy box not long after we began in the lifestyle when we had just added some new ones.. And during dinner we were asked about the fake pee pees in the box under our bed.. After being pissed that they were snooping and they got the lock open.. It was a old footlocker with a dub little lock on it, with the mrs' birthday as the combo.. we dealt with it.


Again this is 2009, The now 19 yr old, that asked the question way back when, went to a adult toy party with her mother... And then asked us to place the order for herm So yes we bougght her her first Vibe.... The youngest is however our chief protagonist..Snooping, and between friends, locker room talk, MySpace, and every other media outlet that is in thier faces.. surfing porn is a few mouse clicks away, and a class or two in school defeats net nanny, or whatever software you are running.. trying a new one right now, from Norton.. Our 14 yr old, got caught just last night, studying biology.. ala YouTube

Now one final point, go with a pocket rocket, or another EXTERNAL vibrator.. the last thing you need is to hand her her new friend, only a few hours later to hear a scream and a locked bedroom door.. thanks to natures screen door still inplace.. or worse, after she comes in and asks if BLOOD down there is normal..

[xxxboxy]

I would certainly hope that a teen asking for a vibe would know enough about her body to know that she has a hymen wouldn't you? If not then all parties should give up any hope, she'll be knocked up in six months and not understand how the hell it happened.

[Ed & Bunny]

Originally Posted by PB&J

The problem is that I don't know how to express this with seeming uptight I guess. I was raised by a dear, sweet wonderful woman who is horrified by any type of sexual expression, not for religious reasons but just out of a very deep and innate modesty. I learned the facts of life from a pamphlet handed to me by my older sister when I was 11. Obviously I would have appreciated a more liberated sex education myself. I think that it is the responsibility of parents to give their children a healthy attitude towards sex, and I have certainly tried to do that for my sons. Without a doubt my attitude towards sex is not the same as my mother's, or I wouldn't have my current hobby.

I wouldnt say uptight or even old fasioned as Lovinher stated. There have been a few things stated in this thread thatI have not been thrilled by. But as many have probobly the same level of sex education from their parents as you and I did, we are on new greound having to make the rules up as we go.

[/QUOTE]Porn is not part of a healthy sex education for children. And I don't care how mature they think they are, a 15-year-old is still a child. Porn is fantasy, not reality, and it helps to have a knowledge of the reality of sex before being exposed to the fantasy. Otherwise, a child is going to end up with a pretty extreme view of what sex is. Yes, we all sneaked peeks at the magazines and read the dirty bits in the books, but there's a difference between that and being able to watch porn whenever you want, absorbing those images and attitudes without the balance of knowing what the reality is. And certainly teenage girls have enough body image issues to deal without adding in the standards set by porn actresses. While it is readily available these days in the wide wide world in a way we could never have imagined when we were kids, does that mean that as parents we give up and relax the standards in our own home as well? Do we leave graphic sexual images, or the evidence of sexual activity such as vibrators, where children can't escape it, or do we create a space where children don't have to deal with sexuality all the time? [/QUOTE]

I have to agree with the porn. As a teen I gained accesss to adult materials which I thought were wonderful. Today with experience I know how little porn has to do with reality, so it it is something to be discussed and discouraged until age and maturity come along to fully understand and appreciate whatt is has to offer. As for it being easily available to the OP's daughter, I would guess it might have been hidden away like the magazines were in our day. Porno movie collections are still somewhat a newer thing. They do need to be put away better now. Now as for the leaving of vibrators out, I cant say I am thrilled. Kids do snoop and find things, but to just leave them out in the open is tacky.

[/QUOTE]While I did have intense curiosity about sex, and not enough outlets to explore it, at least I was able to go into my first sexual experience with a sense that this was something new and exciting and fresh, and not something that I already developed too jaded a palate for through too much exposure. SHOULD adolescent sexual exploration and expression have that much input from parents? After all, isn't the start of one's sexual adventures, no matter how tame, part of growing up and away from your parents and becoming an independent human being?[/QUOTE]

I think in this case you dont give many of our teens enough credit. Reading or hearing about it shouldnt detract from the actual experience and in all likelyhood may help them deal with that first experience by knowing whats right and wrong and to know somewhat what to expect. I know that reading tons of posts here on this site did not diminish the level of exitement for my wife and I when we finaly had our first swinging experience.

Now as for bombardment I agree totaly. Todays media is just too overloaded and doesnt give a good perspective on sex and the emotions that go with it. That is why it is the job of parents to get involved.

[/QUOTE]While it is great to be able to discuss issues like this with a parent, this whole vibrator thing seems a bit much. They're sex toys, right? A mother helping her 15 yr old daughter use a sex toy? A father sending his 14 yr old daughter a sex toy? How does that sound? If a child under my care mentioned one of these things, I would think twice, probably ask the advice of someone else, maybe do nothing out of the fear of overreacting but still be uneasy about it. There are others who would report it. And they would justify it by pointing to cases where such actions had been "grooming" of the child for sexual exploitation (I have a male friend who was abused by a female relative in that way). Even if your motives are as pure as the driven snow, the rest of the world may not be as impressed.[/QUOTE]

This is the part of this whole thread that scares me the most. I really think even bringing up the word abuse in any of thes circumstances is WAY WAY WAY out of line. I think the words questionable, not the best way, or just simply innapropriate is the best way to describe them. Bunny is an RN with all the reporting guidelines you have plus a few more. She gave her daughter a vibrator when she was about 16. Notice though I said she. As her stepfather I approved but had nothing to do with the giving or any questiones asked after. Had I done otherwise would have been inapropriate. Was what she did wrong? No. We must remember that 50 years ago many children of that age were still getting married and 100 years prior to that most did. Society has changed not biology, so we need to find ways to deal with it. As for not impressing the rest of the world, if they are still using the failed abstinance idea, (my uncles sex talk came down to keep it in your pants) I dont care. I feel that not giving teens good education is more abusive and sets them up for to many problems the way our media and their peers bombard them with questionable information. The hormones and desires are there and they will seek knowledge. It is the dutyof parents to make sure they get the right information.

Now as for being uneasy, there is nothing wrong with that. In your position ( hell just on a personal level) there is reason for greater scrutiny when a father give a 14 year old a toy or a mom actualy gives a demonstration. But making a report for these might be going to far. Causing a situation where the kids are removed from a home for a parents lack of good common sense is not a good thing. The damage caused could be enourmous to those involved, so keep that in mind. But there are other signs to tell if there is more involved and those should be watched for and reported if seen. Remember we have no good model to go off of for teaching our kids about sex. Lets not demonize Parents who make mistakes as they try to figure it out.

[/QUOTE]We can all agree that sex is a wonderful thing, I think. and we would all agree that we want our children to grow up with a healthy attitude towards sex. The question is how we help them develop that healthy attitude without going too far.[/QUOTE]

This is an exelent statement and question. And it is one that will be debated for many years to come. It will be a hard one because there are so many groups out there that want no discution on the issue. Keep it in your pants is a perfect idea of sex ed for them. Also most of us in the age group of 40 to 60's have to contend with what we were taught when we were young versus any liberalized view we may hold today. This all makes for a lively debate to come.

[PB&J]

Originally Posted by Ed & Bunny

This is the part of this whole thread that scares me the most. I really think even bringing up the word abuse in any of thes circumstances is WAY WAY WAY out of line. I think the words questionable, not the best way, or just simply innapropriate is the best way to describe them.

If you read carefully, Ed, the only incident that I actually refer to as "abuse" was the case involving my friend. What I SAID was that the rest of the world would probably not be as understanding as people on this forum, and that could create problems for the parents and children involved.

[Alura]

I'm just a hick Okie, and I don't have any daughters, but it seems to me that an ability to communicate without fear is as important a need between a parent and a child as between spouses. I hope I'm never embarrassed by any question one of my sons might ask. I'll never avoid helping him learn what he needs to know. I really can't imagine circumstances in which demonstration might be necessary, though.

Mr. Alura

[LagniappeDC]

With two young children - including one daughter - I'm finding this a fascinating conversation -- and applaud the fact that it can be so thoughtful and respectful. I can only imagine what a similar thread would look like on another board!!

We agree that there are two different "questions" on the table, one with vibrators and one with porn.

On the porn question, I have to agree that kids pre-teens & teens are better off not exposed to it or allowed to watch it. We are, however, in a day in age when misspelling a URL turns up pretty explicit material. I also know from friends and relatives who are in education that middle school and high school are a whole new world where giving blowjobs are as common as making out. Now this isn't a sex is bad commentary, its equating sex with a respect.

If you discover that your kids are watching porn, then I think its fair to have an open discussion about it. We actually don't watch porn at our house because quite frankly, it's boring. We do subscribe to the playboy channel (we only watch it for the articles, I swear!!). It does have hardcore porn, though without cum shots which always leaves me a bit mystified, but we primarily watch it for the 'reality' programs like sexcetera which tend to show real people doing real things. We also lock it so it can't be stumbled upon. But I don't kid myself, I'm sure my boy will know about porn much quicker than I ever did.

As for the vibrator, I agree with the original post that maturity has to be much more central than age. It does sound as if the 15 yo was pretty mature, and the fact that she brought it up twice, and asked to wait till she was 16 says that the issue isn't going away. You can ask yourself whether the fact that the vibrators were kept out in the open created a cause and effect situation. The fact that she talked openly about masturbation, however, probably makes that question moot. So, yes, in this case, if this was our situation we'd probably try and make the request work with some sort of boundaries. Because, honestly, what really is the difference between using a vibrator and using your fingers?

Ultimately, if we had more well-informed, self confident, empowered women, this world would be a much better place. These traits are the basis for good decisions. The NY Times did a special on a topic related to this broader point which I would encourage everyone to read: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/ma...en-t.html?_r=1


This starts with parents who actively demonstrate this at home and pass it on to our children on a daily basis. Yes, there is a time and a place for everything -- but as kids begin to reach a certain level of maturity you need to be more open and trusting (with boundaries!). I firmly believe that more often than not you will be rewarded with kids who respect themselves, respect others, and make good decisions. Let's hope time proves me right...lol.

[Ed & Bunny]

Originally Posted by PB&J

I don't think that you're old-fashioned, lovinher, I think that your response is reasonable. As a professional who is in contact with adolescents, I have to say that in my opinion some of the things that have been discussed in this thread are issues that I would be required by law to report if the adolescent in question was under the age of 16. If I became aware that a child under my care was exposed to an abusive situation, and did not report it, I would be liable. Sexual abuse can be defined as "exposing a child to any sexual activity or behaviour." Certainly if investigators came to a home and found vibrators and porn tapes not securely hidden away from children, there would be a big problem.

And in this case, I agree with the law. I've tried writing a response to this thread several times, and don't know how to do it without sounding uptight or offensive to other board members, because this really bothers me.

Originally Posted by PB&J

If you read carefully, Ed, the only incident that I actually refer to as "abuse" was the case involving my friend. What I SAID was that the rest of the world would probably not be as understanding as people on this forum, and that could create problems for the parents and children involved.

PB&J, I gave rational arguments both for and against many of the things you have said in this thread. If you have a rational response to any of what I have said I am more than willing to listen. I know I am not perfect and if you have a good enough argument you can sway my thinking.

I have no idea how you can justify your last response though. As shown in the top quoted post here, you were the first one to bring the topic of abuse and while you never directly say they abused their kids you infer it by stating it is something you would have to report by law, meaning that you felt abuse was present. If it wasnt on your mind why even bring it up? The only thing I can hope is that you were doing it as a warning and didnt word it quite right. Yes there are closed minded poeple who could care less about a family being torn apart for no more reason than feeling offended by how a situation was handled even if no abuse was ever present. And yes there were two posts here that could set someone off like that. And yes we sometimes need to be reminded of that fact. But it has nothing to do with law and justice.

Dant get me wrong, I know abuse is out there and if a child is being abused, molested, or what happened to your freind, I will be the first to contact the authorities and see that there is something done to protect that child. But it needs to be real abuse, not just a moral issue or a question of bad judgement. Remember, if the so called moral majority had their way, as swingers we would be lucky if we could keep our children if not spend many years in jail.

[PB&J]

Originally Posted by Ed & Bunny

I have no idea how you can justify your last response though. As shown in the top quoted post here, you were the first one to bring the topic of abuse and while you never directly say they abused their kids you infer it by stating it is something you would have to report by law, meaning that you felt abuse was present. If it wasnt on your mind why even bring it up? The only thing I can hope is that you were doing it as a warning and didnt word it quite right. Yes there are closed minded poeple who could care less about a family being torn apart for no more reason than feeling offended by how a situation was handled even if no abuse was ever present. And yes there were two posts here that could set someone off like that. And yes we sometimes need to be reminded of that fact. But it has nothing to do with law and justice.

I am not trying to argue with you, I was just trying to clarify a point. Obviously we are in agreement on many of the points that I had made. My quoted definition (from a Gov't of Canada website) shows clearly where the law stands on the issue. What I was saying was that if I go by the letter of the law, that would be my obligation, and those two posts certainly skirt the edges of what I would be comfortable with personally. However, I made a point of saying that I would not report them, and therefore you should be able to conclude that I would not define them as abuse, even if I thought that they were "inappropriate".

[Sunswept]

Originally Posted by Ed & Bunny

I have no idea how you can justify your last response though.

Ed & Bunny, both you AND PB&J make good points... just sayin...

Good posts all, important question and topic, LagniappeDC comes the closest to what I think so far, however everyone has provided good input and perspective.

Setting aside the current question for a wee moment, it may be illuminating to consider how contentious sex, sexual education, sex acts, sexual behavior and even sexual abuse is between just adults, never mind anyone under 18, or even 21. In many states oral sex is considered sodomy, and a crime between adults. In some states, it is a crime for an adult to own a sex toy. It is still not unusual that in cases of rape, the rape victim is ultimately blamed -"They were asking for it."

It has been and is still popular for people to tell other people what an individual of any age can or cannot do with their body. Some that would protect (law, church..) do that, but those that would sexually abuse (rapist, pedophile) do that too.

So, with that said, I am hoping we can apply to this topic what I have fondly come to call "The Alura Principle" of discussions.

I am hoping this important discussion can be as OPEN as possible and that EVERYONE WILL GIVE EVERYONE ELSE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT!

If we disagree, I am hoping it is sufficent to state our disagreement -as opposed to arguing about disagreements.

I want to hear what everyone thinks, even if it differs radically from my own thoughts... I will make my own judgements.