What's your perspective on jealousy

[Honey_Tampa]

Having read the boards for 6 weeks now, there's something I've come to notice that is kinda of knawing at me. I wondered if you knowledgeable folks could explain it.

It seems like for some swingers, there is an insensitivity, disregard or even a flat out intolerance of talk of jealousy. And what I mean is ... the scenario discussed frequently of: I like to swing with men other than my husband but I am jealous of my husband swinging with other women. [or vice a versa]. In reply, some of the responses have been "you need to get over that -- that's selfish".

Now ... kicking cheaters in the shins--I get that. Those wankers need a good wallopin' and I love you guys for giving them a rash of crap but for people who can't move past jealousy? As Americans [that's the only nationality I can speak for] aren't we a monogamous society by definition? Doesn't that make it a "natural and normal" reaction to see your wife moaning underneath another man and want to pop the humping invader in the nose? And it is us swingers are the rare and unique exception?

I completely understand when a spouse is jealous even though they themselves are okay with swinging. You know where your own loyalties lie--no need to be concerned you're going to cheat because .. you're YOU.... You know you won't. But your spouse? You're not in their head. Where will their loyalties lie if they get a taste of someone else? It can be scarey. It can make you possessive.

I've learned to "get over it" but I can't hiss at people who haven't yet.

What about you? Are you the "encouraging empathizer"? Or are you the "smack 'em on the forehead whatsthematterwith you" person?

[sexyshelby]

Interesting observations.

I get a sense of arrogance from some of the posts related to jealousy. So I see what you mean.

~SS

[VanHlebar]

Honey_Tampa,

This is kind of funny because Mrs Van was firmly in the camp of there is no way I will let you be with another woman, but MMF encounter, hey she was all for that.

Now, after about a month of talking about things and reading this board daily she has changed her thoughts on this. I can speak for myself, I am the type that I would encourage the person to think about the effects on their respective spouse or SO. It would be very difficult for me personally to swing only letting MrsVan have the experience. I think I would encourage them to talk more with their spouse or SO because as Intuition says frequently here on the boards, jealousy is almost always self imposed.

Someone much wiser than I, has also posted on there somewhere that the vanilla couples could learn alot about basic communication and honesty from this lifestyle and I agree with that.

With that being said I can completely understand the new persons thoughts and feelings would be. I didn't know how I truely would react until it happended on Saturday, and now that is has happened.. look out because it was awesome!

-Van

[luvinit]

I know where you are coming from on this. We play with a couple where the female is not wanting to share her husband. We still have a great time. We have been seeing them for a year and she still hasnt changed her mind, the only time I touch him is when I am touching her and he just happens to be there. Her husband is okay with this because his thing is seeing her with another man, and my husband loves seeing me with another woman and he also gets to have sex with her which is like always having that elusive bi-female available.

It would be great is she changed her mind, but if she doesn't were okay with that too. When I posted about this before I was told we were not really swinging! We just went away together this weekend and shared a room, believe me, we were swinging.

We are always careful of everyones feelings and I always whisper in her ear "is that okay" to make sure I am not crossing a line. I guess that would make me an ENCOURAGING EMPATHIZER

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by Honey_Tampa

As Americans [that's the only nationality I can speak for] aren't we a monogamous society by definition? Doesn't that make it a "natural and normal" reaction to see your wife moaning underneath another man and want to pop the humping invader in the nose? And it is us swingers are the rare and unique exception?"

Well, as American (not from US but we like to say we are as much as Germans like to say they're Europeans), I'd say (the entire occidental jewish-shristians) we are a monogamous society "by definition", and that there are other societies that are poligamous... but where men are allowed to have more than one wyfe... and hardly otherwyse. The problem here is the "definition" Who defined it? more important, why?

The question is, maternity is something granted for sure: you have no doubt, in any case, about who's the mather for the kid just born, the kid came out from her body. For guys there is no grant at all (unless you supose DNA tests have some real effect on a culture that evloved for millons of years), it is a matter of faith: we have to believe blindly in our wyfe's word when she say the kid is ours... Or we have to look for ways to reasure we're the fathers without relying in the wyfe's words. So, we're monogamous because of a definition made to ultimatelly reasure us, as much as it can be done.

Monogamy then is the answer to avoid uncertanities, and that extends to the fears we may have about being loved, or stop being loved, about our identity, how "good" we are for others, and so forth.

Originally Posted by Honey_Tampa

I completely understand when a spouse is jealous even though they themselves are okay with swinging. You know where your own loyalties lie--no need to be concerned you're going to cheat because .. you're YOU.... You know you won't. But your spouse? You're not in their head. Where will their loyalties lie if they get a taste of someone else? It can be scarey. It can make you possessive.

Well, here you're using a definition for loyalties that comes from the monogamous setting. Even when for most couples their private definition for laoyalties fits the social ones, it may not be the case, and at last, along history, the social definition is the most restrictive one as to ensure any male have the right to feel confident about his paternity. But here the one accountable for is the private definition every couple have.

Jealousy is the name we give to our incertanities and fears when we put the burden for those in third ones.

I think swingers are, at least, aware of this, and we manage our fears and incertanities the best we can: by ignoring them if they bring up (for example, while watching another guy pleasing our wyfe), finding ways to work around them, emphatising other definitions for loyalties, and so forth.

Some swingers try to sell their own recipe about this, and this have the effect you're pointing out. But at last, we talk from the awareness of what the issue is about.

I am pretty sure that if you cannot deal with your jealous, you cannot be swinger, and that you can remain being swinger for as long as you can deal with them. Because of this, I believe the swinger's advice when the issue brings up is: learn to deal with it, or drop the swinging.

[LOL_OMG]

I'm really glad you posted this, because it's gnawed at me too. I've been tempted to post before when the subject comes up but didn't want to get into a pissing contest.

As far as jealousy goes it's a very real and normal reaction. You can't control it or "get over it". We've been in situations where we're with a couple we like, and something as simple as hearing a moan from the other one's spouse makes you flinch....wondering what feels so good and wishing that were you moaning. I can't judge others on the subject because I have felt it myself.

The selfish comments bother me as well. I would consider us selfish as a couple, looking to enhance our sexual relationship through a new adventure. When we've met up with others or go to a club, it's about us having a good time (selfish). If we're playing with another couple, and I want to see the other woman being pleased...that's selfish on my part. It's about our wants and pleasures....sounds kinna selfish to me

Mrs LOL

[Chicup]

The point is, that those of us who are no longer jealous of their spouses having sex with other people don't want the drama couples that are not totally comfortable with the idea can bring.

After you have been swinging for a while, you see what can happen with this, and you just want no part in it.

IMHO a couple where one party is still too jealous to allow their partner what they want for themselves has no business swinging yet.

[AZ Dreaming]

I am really glad that you started this thread Honey!

I am most definitely a "encouraging empathizer".

I was the one with the jealousy issues to work through. I could not just "get over it". I worked very hard at getting past it, so that we could be a more open, secure couple. Mostly it boiled down to my insecurities. I have worked through it all and just the other weekend we had our first "play date" in about a year. It was great!! No issues at all!

My husband was always fine with seeing me with another man. So, we did the MFM thing for a while. But for me it took years (yes years) for me to be ok with seeing him with another women. I think if I had found this board a few years ago it would not have taken so long. It has really helped me to read all those stories and situations that people go through.

I agree that sometimes the people are a little hard on those who have jealousy issues. I think we "encouraging empathizers" need to speak up on those threads more often.(myself included)

[ANGEDKY(mr)]

This may add some insight to jealousy, and how some work around it.

Jealousy...the green monster

[LOL_OMG]

Well, my point was...people come to this board and get the courage up to post something in order to get some help. Just saying "get over it" or "that's selfish" is not helping them at all....and a waste of time even reading it.

IMHO a couple where one party is still too jealous to allow their partner what they want for themselves has no business swinging yet.

I disagree here, there are many levels of swinging...no black and white just various shades of gray. Communication is the main ingredient in swinging and I would advise any new couple to take it slow and work together as a couple to get what they both want out of the experience. If one is feeling left out then maybe they need to take it down a notch, but just to label and pass judgement IMO is not helpful to them.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by LOL_OMG

I disagree here, there are many levels of swinging...no black and white just various shades of gray. Communication is the main ingredient in swinging and I would advise any new couple to take it slow and work together as a couple to get what they both want out of the experience. If one is feeling left out then maybe they need to take it down a notch, but just to label and pass judgement IMO is not helpful to them.

I've seen it ruin marriages, hence I'm not being judgmental, I'm giving words of wisdom.

Swinging is a hobby to most and there is no reason to risk your relationship over it. I can see how it could work out, but is it worth the risk?

[LOL_OMG]

Swinging is a hobby to most and there is no reason to risk your relationship over it. I can see how it could work out, but is it worth the risk?

Okay well I totally agree with this statement. My comments were meant to be more of a general nature when it comes to helping people who ask for it. I just don't care for the comments "that's selfish" or "get over it" without providing anything else.

[BodyScape02]

I would have to say I fall into both catagories at once... Yes, finally an issue were I can sit the fence...lol.

I encourage couples not to swing ... until they get that issue straightened out. Why? Because it can impact a couples relationship... someone will have resentment at not being in the loop. (That goes for all people concerned)

Therefore the point becomes... know thyself.... I had trouble with it at first... and at last... for entirely differant reasons.

When I did... we stopped and regrouped. So when someone says they are a full swap couple... and you make it clear you are not... they should not be comming down on you.

If you know they are full swap going in and didn't inform them... or you are a greedy individual who wants all the play for yourself and none for your mate ... when he asks to discuss and modify your set of play rules....then someone is going to feel frustrated and someone is going to get thier feelings hurt or feel left out... and no one wants thier relationship put in jepardy for something like that...

~Cat the fence sitter.

[Uomo]

I'd ... smack 'em in the head.

I can't stand double-standards.

My message to insecure spouses?

Suck it up ... and grow a pair (ladies included).

What's good for one ... is good for all.

[WesternSwing]

I'm very sympathetic to those with jealousy issues because I experienced them myself coming into to this. I never thought of myself as an insecure person, but swinging brought-up some old dragons dealing with my ex-wife cheating on me. So I had to overcome them.

I realized that jealousy was springing from two places:

1. I was insecure in this situation, and
2. I was not giving my spouse enough credit because of my insecurity

I worked hard on this. I didn't like the feeling, or the belief that I was insecure, and also I was really short-changing Mrs. WS and her feelings about me. Neither was fair to either of us. I realized that with or without swinging, our relationship could never be whole and fully beneficial to both of us until I overcame this issue. As I paraphrase Havelock Ellis: "Jealousy is the dragon that slays love under the pretense of keeping it alive." Doesn't matter whether it is sex or just going out with friends away and out of the others control, I think jealousy has no place in a healthy relationship. Now, care and concern do, but jealousy, no.

So I am sypmathetic, but I will have a tendency to slap those on the forehead that are saying "I'm jealous and it's my spouse's problem, they can deal with it or not. It's my way or no way." It's okay to be jealous, it's not okay to say others have to deal with your jealousy for you to be okay. You being jealous is your problem to deal with, not theirs.

"The jealous are troublesome to others, but a torment to themselves." ~William Penn, Some Fruits of Solitude, 1693

Mr. WS