Dealing with a hint of jealousy

[Bigun]

I have no idea if I'm warped or this is normal,but here it goes.

Me and my wife are close... very close. We decided together to attemp to swing. We met a couple at a club and things went well and we went back to their house. We had discussed rules and we decided no full swap and nothing intimate, and also we would let each other know what was comfortable and what wasn't during the event. As the night progressed, she did something that made me uncomfortable. She touched the other man in his area and kissed him while the other woman was doing oral. He also touched my wife's breasts... as this may seem normal to most people, me and my wife discussed that this would be "girl play" only. When the roles were switched, the other woman... not even once.. touched me, this prompted me to leave her alone... her own husband had to *tell* me to touch his wife's breasts. I was so afraid that I would break rules or hurt my wife's feeling that I ended upfeeling left out and a bit hurt. Now I have to deal with this girl-play only session feeling like a threesome without me being involved. I have talked to my wife about this, but I'm writting to ask if my feeling are valid or childish in this particular situation? And also, how do I deal with this jealousy?

[littlebit54]

Originally Posted by Bigun

I have no idea if I'm warped or this is normal,but here it goes.

Me and my wife are close... very close. We decided together to attemp to swing. We met a couple at a club and things went well and we went back to their house. We had discussed rules and we decided no full swap and nothing intimate, and also we would let each other know what was comfortable and what wasn't during the event. As the night progressed, she did something that made me uncomfortable. She touched the other man in his area and kissed him while the other woman was doing oral. He also touched my wife's breasts... as this may seem normal to most people, me and my wife discussed that this would be "girl play" only. When the roles were switched, the other woman... not even once.. touched me, this prompted me to leave her alone... her own husband had to *tell* me to touch his wife's breasts. I was so afraid that I would break rules or hurt my wife's feeling that I ended upfeeling left out and a bit hurt. Now I have to deal with this girl-play only session feeling like a threesome without me being involved. I have talked to my wife about this, but I'm writting to ask if my feeling are valid or childish in this particular situation? And also, how do I deal with this jealousy?

Well, i'm not sure, but i think you had some valid reasons for feeling at least a twinge of jealousy, if not betrayal. You made some ground rules and it looks like your wife set them aside (for whatever reason).
You said you discussed this with your wife, but, that hasn't seemed to help. One of the primary rules that everyone talks about here is to go as slow as the slowest person.

If you are feeling the least bit apprehensive about the girl-play session you shouldn't have to endure it. Talk to your wife again and please explain to her all that you are feeling. Don't get left out of anything. After all another good assumption is that whatever you do in swinging is supposed to be for both of you, not just one. If you are not ready to be left out again then you shouldn't have to feel as if you are "not involved".
That's just mho and perhaps someone else will come along and give you better advice or another take on it.

littlebit54

[good times]

We have actually run across this type of problem from the perspective of the other couple and what follows are some thoughts from that perspective. I am not real sure if it will apply to your situation but we have run accross it often enough with new couples that even if it doesn't it may give you some food for thought for the future.

If this was supposed to be girl play only, with no mf contact at all, and you had all agreed to this before hand, then you have every right to be upset. If you weren't clear with the other couple then the fault may rest with both of you for not making your rules clear ahead of time.

This type of thing isn't uncommon for first timers though, and when you are new to it you are often reluctant to object out loud imediately when things are not going the way you had anticipated. Having no previous experiance it is hard to cover all possible scenarios that might crop up before hand. Talk it out with your wife, and if you both choose to continue, refine your rules so that their is less chance of a problem cropping up in the future. As littlebit54 said, go as slow as the slowest person and you should be fine.

Make sure next time that the couple you intend to play with clearly understands your boundries before you start though, from your brief description here it sounds to me like the other couple wasn't clear about your limitations. If they were clear ahead of time about your rules then what they did was wrong, in my opinion. We don't have very many boundries so we generally don't discuss it much with potential playmates which seems to be pretty common with experianced swingers. If the play goes in a direction we don't feel comfortable with we will just tell the one we are with that we don't do that and continue on. But if someone we hook up with has limitations they wish observed we have no problem with it and will either honor their wishes or decline to play with them based on what their limitations or rules are.

When we first started we had a whole book of rules but it quickly became apparent to both of us that many of them were unworkable and it turns out most were unnecessary so our rules got continually refined over time.

Remember this is supposed to be fun for everybody. If it isn't, then you need to sit back, slow down, or stop until you and your wife can talk it out and come to an understanding that makes it enjoyable for both of you. Good luck.

[LikeMinds321]

Originally Posted by Bigun

. . . As the night progressed, she did something that made me uncomfortable. She touched the other man in his area and kissed him while the other woman was doing oral. . . .

This statement was about your wife and was the first activity you mentioned that made you uncomfortable.

It was your wife that first broke the rules, probably because she was very comfortable with how the play was going and thought you were too. I'd imagine the other couple just followed her cue.

Don't beat yourself up about being uncomfortable with what transpired, it surprised you, you were probably more concerned about following "rules" than relaxing and enjoying the moment. This is normal for many new swingers.

Talk with your wife about the incident and decide how this miscommunication can be avoided in the future.

It's events like this that teach us about the dynamics of swinging and how we can learn from them.

LM

[WesternSwing]

Feelings valid? Yes. Childish? No. Puzzling to me ? Yes.

You are right that most of what happened is considered normal by most. Kissing and petting are probably the most basic activities in swinging. Some people may have a "no kissing", or a "no french kissing" rule, but petting is kind of part of the game. If this is not okay with where you are at now in regards to swinging, then that needed to be made very clear with the other couple so that they didn't step over that line either. Especially if you were only in it for the girl/girl play. The other couple's feelings are just as valid as yours, and if there was not to be any play other than watching his SO with your wife, then they needed to know that up front. Otherwise they may come away feeling cheated or very confused from the experience. From what you describe they didn't take it beyond petting with you and your wife, so they recognized, and were sensitive to, your slower pace then your wife's.

Are your feelings valid? Of course. It's how you feel. And if your wife was petting the other guy and you agreed not to... then she stepped over the line. It sounds from your post, however, that you two had only briefly talked about boundries and were more-or-less "winging it", feeling-out where those boundries are while it was happening.

As far as feeling left out, I can speak from experience that sometimes you just have to be more aggressive. I can understand wanting to stay inside whatever rules you and your wife set out. I can understand not being quite sure of where the other couple's boundries are if they weren't discussed, and especially if your basing theirs on your's. I can also understand it being kind of weird getting fresh with some other guy's wife, when for your whole life you've been told you shouldn't. But sometimes you just have to say, "WTF?"

Remember that you are all there for the same reason, and it's all just for fun. So lighten-up a little and have a good time. Communicate your boundries better with your spouse and with potential play partners. And in my opinion, expand your boundries a tad. Even in most soft swap situations - like what you experienced - there will be some petting and kissing with the members of the other couple.

You're in the very first stages and definitely testing the waters, but in my experience finding another guy that only wants to watch his wife get it on with yours, without any other type of interaction, is almost as rare as the elusive single bi-female. If you're not willing to accept maybe a little cross interaction, then in my opinion you need to step back a little and regroup before you wade in again.

Try not to be two timid and definitely try not to over-analyze things. Take it from someone that has, it can take all the fun out of it.

Mr. WS

[Bigun]

Thanks for your replies.

One of the reasons that I was timid is that she shown no interest in me whatsoever. And it was stated that she was ok with him getting 'head' from the other girl, touching etc. And that she had a no-below-the-waist rule for herself. In other words, she had more restrictions for herself than her own husband.... I'm trying to remember, but I believe she was even ok with another woman having sex with him... it was 'him' who had that restriction.

Now please don't get me wrong, if I had to do it over again, I would, I just would have covered some bases that we didn't cover. But as far as feeling left out, I was afraid of making contact with her in fear of pissing her off (since she had more rules for herself than her own husband). And coupled with the fact that she seemed to show no interest in me. Is this all in my mind? Do I just need to say 'fuck it' and attempt a little more foreplay? Also, the little incident keeps popping into my mind causing llittle jealous fits that are a certified pain-in-the-ass to deal with, any suggestions there?

[EvilMJ]

HI,

I completely understand your problem. I think you have a vaid concern. You set some rules and discussed your comfort level, and she left that zone. I think you both need to talk it over. As Good Times said, your rules will change and refine over time.

I think communication as always is the key. SHe may not realize she made you feel uncomfortable.

[WesternSwing]

Originally Posted by Bigun

Thanks for your replies.

One of the reasons that I was timid is that she shown no interest in me whatsoever. And it was stated that she was ok with him getting 'head' from the other girl, touching etc. And that she had a no-below-the-waist rule for herself. In other words, she had more restrictions for herself than her own husband.... I'm trying to remember, but I believe she was even ok with another woman having sex with him... it was 'him' who had that restriction.

Now please don't get me wrong, if I had to do it over again, I would, I just would have covered some bases that we didn't cover. But as far as feeling left out, I was afraid of making contact with her in fear of pissing her off (since she had more rules for herself than her own husband). And coupled with the fact that she seemed to show no interest in me. Is this all in my mind? Do I just need to say 'fuck it' and attempt a little more foreplay? Also, the little incident keeps popping into my mind causing llittle jealous fits that are a certified pain-in-the-ass to deal with, any suggestions there?

Wow. It seems you both had so many "rules" that this thing was doomed from the beginning. It sounds like all you could really do safely is sit and stare at each other from across the room. So don't beat yourself up over it at all.

What you need to do is talk it over with your wife, and then talk it over again. Get very comfortable with what you will be comfortable with. Expand your list a little, step out of your comfort zone just a little. And then discuss it with the other couple before the clothes come off.

As far as jealousy, are you feeling jealous because you feel your wife had a better time than you? Or is the idea of your wife and someone else causing the jealousy? The first is easy to fix because all you have to do is have a good experience. The second is a bit more difficult becuase you have to do a little self introspection. I'll repeat my favorite quotes regarding this, ones I repeat to myself when I get a tinge jealous: "A competent and self-confident person is incapable of jealousy in anything. Jealousy is invariably a symptom of neurotic insecurity." And "In jealousy there is more of self-love than love."

Hope that helps a bit.

Mr. WS

[Bigun]

Originally Posted by WesternSwing

Wow. It seems you both had so many "rules" that this thing was doomed from the beginning. It sounds like all you could really do safely is sit and stare at each other from across the room. So don't beat yourself up over it at all.

What you need to do is talk it over with your wife, and then talk it over again. Get very comfortable with what you will be comfortable with. Expand your list a little, step out of your comfort zone just a little. And then discuss it with the other couple before the clothes come off.

As far as jealousy, are you feeling jealous because you feel your wife had a better time than you? Or is the idea of your wife and someone else causing the jealousy? The first is easy to fix because all you have to do is have a good experience. The second is a bit more difficult becuase you have to do a little self introspection. I'll repeat my favorite quotes regarding this, ones I repeat to myself when I get a tinge jealous: "A competent and self-confident person is incapable of jealousy in anything. Jealousy is invariably a symptom of neurotic insecurity." And "In jealousy there is more of self-love than love."

Hope that helps a bit.

Mr. WS

Well, it was originally only supposed to be girl-on-girl play. I wouldn't mind expanding a bit out of my comfort zone, but what happened I wasn't expecting and was a bit of a shock. I didn't see it coming. But I'll give it a go next time around, we are seeing them again this Halloween.

Now, onto how I should deal with me and the other woman. Should I talk directly with her about it? Or maybe hint at what I'd like to do? I don't want to seem like a obnoxious-grabby pants.... but I also don't want to come out dull (like I think I may have last time). Like I know there's a no below-the-waist limit for her... but without having an extensive list... that is kind of a vauge rule. And to be honest, yes the jealousy came from a good bit of her having more 'fun' than me, but I think it's mostly due to the fact I stayed in my shell to keep from hurting anyone else. I also should have realised that the people we went to meet were in their mid-30's and halfway experienced with the lifestyle, I *should* have opened up more... I just don't know how.

[good times]

Don't beat yourself up over it to much, the things you are feeling aren't really unusuall. When we first started swinging I spent way to much time worrying about wether I had performed adequately. For the most part my concerns were a result of the same problem you are having in that you were naturally reluctant to voice your concerns with the other couple at the time. with more experiance two things will happen, one, you will be much more comfortable dealing with problems when they come up and two, the problems will come up much less often because you will go with the flow more and not spend so much time dwelling on possible problems.

For my part, when the couples aproached us to play again it finally dawned on me that I was worrying over nothing because if my performance had been substandard they surely wouldn't have wanted to repeat the experiance. As far as your experiance with the couples with lots of rules go, we wouldn't go there again personally. To many rules definitely takes the fun out of it, in my opinion.

[Bigun]

Originally Posted by good times

Don't beat yourself up over it to much, the things you are feeling aren't really unusuall. When we first started swinging I spent way to much time worrying about wether I had performed adequately. For the most part my concerns were a result of the same problem you are having in that you were naturally reluctant to voice your concerns with the other couple at the time. with more experiance two things will happen, one, you will be much more comfortable dealing with problems when they come up and two, the problems will come up much less often because you will go with the flow more and not spend so much time dwelling on possible problems.

For my part, when the couples aproached us to play again it finally dawned on me that I was worrying over nothing because if my performance had been substandard they surely wouldn't have wanted to repeat the experiance. As far as your experiance with the couples with lots of rules go, we wouldn't go there again personally. To many rules definitely takes the fun out of it, in my opinion.

I'm over the regrets. I'm moving on and learning from it. Just need a few tips how to handle next time.

As far as them having too many rules, I'm beginning to think it has to do with their comfortability level with us. It may or may not change, all I know is that we like them, they like us... and they won't be the only people we'll be seeing. So, I've decided to become more accepting, and just looking for general tips on how to approach the lady in question next time.

[Bigun]

Ok, found out a bit of news. We are meeting this couple yet again this Halloween. And I found out why she doesn't like other men to touch her below the waist: She was raped not too long ago and is emotionally scarred.

Her S/o was kind enough to tell my wife this, and she passed it on to me. Now don't get me wrong, I planned to be just a hair more assertive this time around, this bit of news will make it a bit harder and arises a few more fears.

To start with, I am about the last person you would ever see that would hurt or offend anyone on purpose. However, I don't want to show up and meet a couple and watch the three of them have fun and feel like the fourth person in a threesome. Is this selfish of me?

[biblonde]

This to me raises a whole new bunch of problems. Like why are they swinging with couples if she was just raped and doesnt like men down there?? If it was me I would have gotten out of swinging until I worked through that fear. Is the hubby pushing her into this? Something just doesnt sound right to me...And I personally dont think you are being selfish. When you are playing with couples it is suppose to be all four playing..unless all agree and feel comfy with one person not playing. Truthfully if I was you guys I wouldnt go there! It isnt fair to you to have to sit on the sidelines. She needs to get past what has happened and believe me it isnt easy...then when she is more comfy (if ever) they should go back into the lifestyle.

just my 2 cents for the day

[Bigun]

Originally Posted by biblonde

This to me raises a whole new bunch of problems. Like why are they swinging with couples if she was just raped and doesnt like men down there?? If it was me I would have gotten out of swinging until I worked through that fear. Is the hubby pushing her into this? Something just doesnt sound right to me...And I personally dont think you are being selfish. When you are playing with couples it is suppose to be all four playing..unless all agree and feel comfy with one person not playing. Truthfully if I was you guys I wouldnt go there! It isnt fair to you to have to sit on the sidelines. She needs to get past what has happened and believe me it isnt easy...then when she is more comfy (if ever) they should go back into the lifestyle.

just my 2 cents for the day

Hubby didn't push. It's more girl-on-girl thing than anything, and the guy get's to get in on my wife. And you see where that leaves me.

When I say "Not too long ago", I mean she's in her early 30's... this happened in her early 20's.

[biblonde]

Still I dont understand why she is swinging if she cant handle it yet. If it was only about the girl girl thing fine but it really isnt fair to allow her hubby to have your wife while you sit on the sidelines. After all we feel swinging is about everything being equal. If I play with the hubby ....hubby plays with the wife. If one of us doesnt play it doesnt happen. If it was about the girl girl thing only then the wives should stay only with their own SO...If I was you I would re-think this. To me playing with them is asking for trouble in your own relationship. It is going to cause hard feelings from you and I really dont think it would be worth it. But I cant tell you what to do...that has to be decided between you and your wife. I think you guys need to sit down and have a serious talk about all this. Let her know you are feeling left out.