Dealing With Guilt

[OhioCouple]

quote:

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Originally posted by L & D:
Boy, sounds like you all think the deck is stacked against us! I sincerely hope that you are not right. I thought I stated rather imfatactly at the beginning of my post that NEITHER of us want to end the swinging and I guess I should also add that BOTH of us are commented to making it work. Perhaps I over stated the problem or perhaps I understated our commitment to each other. Ding and I are in a committed relationship! we have been married seventeen years and we are more in love and more turned on by each other than at the beginning. In seventeen years she and I have never went to bed angry or ever parted without a kiss.

That said there are the jealousy and guilt issues, but I find it hard to imagine that these aren't issues for all couples in varying degrees! Do you really mean to say that you have never questioned the ethics of your actions and never had any feelings of jealousy? Not even in the beginning?

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L&D,

I tried to be really kind and helpful in my original posting believing in your sincerity, but let me tell ya pal...I have a very low tolerance level right now. I am calling a *spade a spade*.

All the folks on this board have done nothing more than offer advice based on their own experiences and how they got started after much discussion before plunging into the lifesytle. (I do realize that this post doesn't reflect all of the comments posted by L&D and If I knew how to place mulitiple posts on the same page I would do so).

Your original post addressed two issues, with a concentration on guilt. Excuse us please for not BEING ABLE TO IDENTIFY what your FIRST AND FOREMOST CONCERN WAS, hmmm does the word human come to mind?

Lori ~ I'm a Libra....Could you be a Gemini?

[ 08-16-2002, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: OhioCouple ]

[ciscosv]

One thing seems to be redundant here. Handle the fact that you feel guilt. Guilt is usually something that is felt when you know something that someone else does not. Atleast to me it does. Maybe I would need a dictionary for the definition. Guilt is what you have to focus on. What is causing the guilt? Once you know what is causing your guilt, then it can be time to overcome the issue.

[Alura]

quote:

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Originally posted by L & D:
You know I read both of these books a long, long time ago. (Probably before many of you were born) I don't remember that they dealt with the issue of Sex.
Guess I should read them again.

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As we said, be sure to get the unexpurgated version. You probably read the expurgated version which cut out all the sex. Without it, "Stranger in a Strange Land" loses a lot of its meaning.

[JustAskJulie]

quote:

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Originally posted by L & D:
Boy, sounds like you all think the deck is stacked against us! I sincerely hope that you are not right. I thought I stated rather imfatactly at the beginning of my post that NEITHER of us want to end the swinging and I guess I should also add that BOTH of us are commented to making it work. Perhaps I over stated the problem or perhaps I understated our commitment to each other. Ding and I are in a committed relationship! we have been married seventeen years and we are more in love and more turned on by each other than at the beginning. In seventeen years she and I have never went to bed angry or ever parted without a kiss.

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I'm going to jump in here now. I didn't feel the need to before since what I would have said was already said.

Based on what we know of your swinging experience (which is a lot) you guys probably did jump in too fast and probably should back off and do more talking than playing at this point (sounds like maybe you are doing too much playing).

No one here has said you need to QUIT swinging, just that perhaps you should take a break until you get these issues sorted out. Issues which really should have been sorted out before you ever jumped in the sack with your first couple.

You came here asking for advice but once again it seems that when the advice you recieve is not what you hoped/wanted it to be you get mad and don't want to listen to it. If the only advice you want to receive is what you are hoping to hear then why bother asking?

[Quin]

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Sex was not considered a sin until Saul of Tarsus renamed himself Saint Paul and took it upon himself to deride it. It was not because he was particularly against sex, just that he felt the end was near and anything distracting from religious devotion was to be avoided. The power-hungry "Bloody Popes" of the Middle Ages added to the attitude that sex was sinful.

Jesus never spoke against sex. Some historians believe he had a lasting relationship with Mary Magdelene. Who knows? Sex didn't seem to be an important issue with him.

The bible was assembled under Constantine when he declared Christianity the official Roman religion, some 200 years after Jesus' death.

If you'd like to explore a different take on the subject of spiritual sexuality, you might consider reading the novel "Stranger in a Strange Land." (How do you underline, Julie?) You'll probably have to find it in a used book store. It's a wonderful read, even if you decide in the end that it's ridiculous. Be sure to get the unexpurgated version.

Neither of us is a history major. We'll call upon Quin to jump in here and add to or correct what we have written.

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Well, St Paul was celibate and preached celibacy. Never went too deep into him...what I do know and my conclusion on his celibacy was that maybe it wasn't something he particularly chose. Reports of St Paul's appearance have him deformed, bowlegged, blind in one eye, possibly a midget (definitely on the short side) and he was also prone to what sounds like epileptic seizures and was thought by many religious historians and historians to possibly be schizophrenic as there are many, many reports on his having hallucinations/hearing voices and not just when he was on the road to Damascus and experienced the perverbial light. Not quite someone, during any era, that would appeal much to the opposite sex. He was considered very zealous in his beliefs, to the point of being run out of many towns because of his preaching and if I'm not mistaken this was the reason for his eventual arrest 50something AD and his probable execution in 60 or 62 A.D. (depends upon which story you believe...some have him escaping imprisionment...most have him beheaded/executed).

There are probably many more historians (notice I didn't include the religious historians..tho some of them believe, but not many) that believe there is much more to Jesus and Mary Magedeline than there are not. That relationship was never as clearly defined as some of the other relationships that Jesus had. Many, many unanswered questions there especially for it to be such a monumental relationship at the end of his life. And no, Jesus never spoke about sex itself...he did speak of love, but in the context in which he spoke of, it could not lead one to believe it included anything sexual in nature (tho there are those zealots who would disagree as they believe sex to be love).

I could go into a long diatribe on history/eras/cultures/religion that have led to the guilt that people experience with sex, more particularly females, but this is not the thread for that.

Quin

[Quin]

quote:

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I'm going to jump in here now. I didn't feel the need to before since what I would have said was already said.

Based on what we know of your swinging experience (which is a lot) you guys probably did jump in too fast and probably should back off and do more talking than playing at this point (sounds like maybe you are doing too much playing).

No one here has said you need to QUIT swinging, just that perhaps you should take a break until you get these issues sorted out. Issues which really should have been sorted out before you ever jumped in the sack with your first couple.

You came here asking for advice but once again it seems that when the advice you recieve is not what you hoped/wanted it to be you get mad and don't want to listen to it. If the only advice you want to receive is what you are hoping to hear then why bother asking?

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Maybe kspartycple or leftcoast9 will pop up with some *good*, *constructive* advice for them...ya think? I'm sure many get the feeling of that head (the one that houses the brain) repeatedily banging against the wall. OUCH!

Just couldn't resist. I had ignored this thread (as I have all threads started by L&D) but then read it tonight and darn Alura for pulling me in.

Lambchops for dinner again, Lori?

Quin - who will now patiently await the 'Quin, you bitch' posts

[OhioCouple]

quote:

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Originally posted by Quin:
[QB][QUOTE]
Lambchops for dinner again, Lori?

QB]

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Not gonna be tonight! Gene and I can't agree on how to baste it! Looks like it is just going to be good old chicken.

Lori ~ Truly

[ 08-16-2002, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: OhioCouple ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Quin:
[QUOTE]
Just couldn't resist. I had ignored this thread (as I have all threads started by L&D) ...

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I just don't understand what I have done to alienate folks here but apparently I have.. Funny thing I really have respected people like Quinn, Julie, and most of the rest of you but since I am obviously not liked or wanted I promise never to post here again if Julie will be kind enough to remove my profile. The irony of it all is that it was the encouragement of Julie that helped us to try swinging. Now apearently even she has turned on me. I entend to only send one mor message on this board,a private message to Julie requesting that all my posts and my profile be removed from this site. If you don't hear from me again, you will know she complied with my wishes.

The really sad thing is that I once thought this was a wonderful group. Go back and read my first posts from three months ago. I am so disappointed to find that the people I originally respected and yes, even liked have turned on me. Oh well this is only a cyber community and unthankful all I have to do to make it disappear is to remove the URL from my computer. I shall do that just as soon as I am convinced that my profile and my posts here have been deleted.

[OhioCouple]

quote:

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Originally posted by L & D:

quote:

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Originally posted by Quin:
[QUOTE]
Just couldn't resist. I had ignored this thread (as I have all threads started by L&D) ...

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I just don't understand what I have done to alienate folks here but apparently I have.. Funny thing I really have respected people like Quinn, Julie, and most of the rest of you but since I am obviously not liked or wanted I promise never to post here again if Julie will be kind enough to remove my profile. The irony of it all is that it was the encouragement of Julie that helped us to try swinging. Now apearently even she has turned on me. I entend to only send one mor message on this board,a private message to Julie requesting that all my posts and my profile be removed from this site. If you don't hear from me again, you will know she complied with my wishes.

The really sad thing is that I once thought this was a wonderful group. Go back and read my first posts from three months ago. I am so disappointed to find that the people I originally respected and yes, even liked have turned on me. Oh well this is only a cyber community and unthankful all I have to do to make it disappear is to remove the URL from my computer. I shall do that just as soon as I am convinced that my profile and my posts here have been deleted.

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L&D,

You two really need to take a few steps back before considering ANY other swing activity the same as any potential swing partners should be aware of your insecurities and unresolved issues which are a set up for disaster.

I am sorry that you feel the way you do. All we were trying to do was give opinions based on what had worked for us in our lives. As for going back and reading your previous posts...hmm I wonder how much time it took you to delete them?

Once again tho you are stomping your feet like a 4 year old who doesn't get his way. I am not a very tolerant woman these days and ya really don't want to tick me off. If you need confirmation of it e-mail me with your phone number and I'll let you talk to my husband. He will be the first to tell ya.

And since I am on a roll here, the pity party thing just ain't gonna get it this time and didn't sit well with me the first time. Geez you burn me up...I suppose tho, I should be glad for the diversion.

Lori

[ 08-16-2002, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: OhioCouple ]

[Quin]

quote:

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Originally posted by L & D:

quote:

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Originally posted by Quin:
[QUOTE]
Just couldn't resist. I had ignored this thread (as I have all threads started by L&D) ...

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I just don't understand what I have done to alienate folks here but apparently I have.. Funny thing I really have respected people like Quinn, Julie, and most of the rest of you but since I am obviously not liked or wanted I promise never to post here again if Julie will be kind enough to remove my profile. The irony of it all is that it was the encouragement of Julie that helped us to try swinging. Now apearently even she has turned on me. I entend to only send one mor message on this board,a private message to Julie requesting that all my posts and my profile be removed from this site. If you don't hear from me again, you will know she complied with my wishes.

The really sad thing is that I once thought this was a wonderful group. Go back and read my first posts from three months ago. I am so disappointed to find that the people I originally respected and yes, even liked have turned on me. Oh well this is only a cyber community and unthankful all I have to do to make it disappear is to remove the URL from my computer. I shall do that just as soon as I am convinced that my profile and my posts here have been deleted.

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Geez, I had written a response and I got booted just as I hit 'add reply'. It's not my night. I'll try to remember it.

L&D the choice is yours to leave. But you need to sit back and review ALL your posts, including the ones you deleted in that one thread that I never got to read. OBJECTIVELY There are swinger couples here who have been swinging longer than you and your spouse have been married. You start a thread, asking some advice about some very serious, or what could become very serious, problems that you and/or your spouse are experiencing. People respond, giving you advice that you solicit and because it's not what you want to hear or it's an opinion that you may not agree with (such as the swinging friendship post) you get angry and begin attacking the posters, in a roundabout kind of way, and their years of experience in something that you've only recently became familiar with. They have seen marriages strengthened by swinging and I'm sure they've seen marriages destroyed by swinging. I, myself, have seen it over the years and you don't have to married to see what's right in front of your face.

People have told you over and over and over that you jumped in, head first, without testing the waters. And they are obviously correct for if you hadn't, you/your spouse wouldn't be experiencing the guilt and/or jealousy that you post of. They suggest you pull back, do some serious talking, some serious thinking, some serious inner searching as individuals and as a couple, and attempt to get past these problems (and they are problems or you wouldn't be experiencing them) before indulging any further. Ignoring them will only make them fester and can not be healthy for your marriage. Very, very sound advice from seasoned swingers...but it's not what you want to hear like Julie said. So you turn it on those that gave the advice that you asked for.

As for myself, I'm not ignorant to your posting. I've read all your posts, except those deleted of course. Why would I want to entangle myself and set myself up for how you treat those who only offer you sound good advice that have come from years of experience, observations and personal knowledge? Why, I'd be a fool. So, yes, I did pass over the threads that you began this time around. And to be truthful, I was SHOCKED...shocked, I tell you, to find that you weren't some young twenty something couple but that you were older than me!!! No one has *turned* on you...it's quite the opposite...no one can offer their advice without you turning it on them because you don't like what you read or it isn't what you want to hear.

Yes, L&D, it is possible for couples/person to indulge in great sex with mulitiple people and arrive back home feeling pretty darn great about the experience forever. Many, many people/couples do it quite frequently. Why would you blatantly question the advice given to you about something as serious as the two subjects you mentioned by people who may have been there, done that? Why would anyone want to indulge in something that they can't purely and totally enjoy? Swinging can bring many great experiences and friendships.

And yes, I agree with Lori. Your post above is nothing more than a ploy to invoke pity and we're all grown adults here and won't fall for that tactic. If you wish to leave, then leave. Don't return, REGARDLESS of whether Julie pulls your profile or not. If you wish to stay, then stay and open yourself up to the advice you so readily solicit. Whatever your decision, I wish you and your wife the best.

Quin


[ 08-16-2002, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Quin ]

[frisson]

quote:

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Originally posted by L & D:
[QBOh but buy the way. I thought this thread was about "dealing with guilt". Everybody seems to want to comment on the jealousy issue. I asked about the guilt question because it is much harder for me to deal with. I can prove my devotion to Ding and therefore alleviate her jealousy but how do you deal with guilt?

<small>[ 08-15-2002, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: L & D ]</small>[/QB]

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L,

I think the reason everybody is focussing on the jealousy issue is that jealousy will ruin a relationship (yes even a strong one) if it is not dealt with. Guilt, on the other hand, may cause one partner some sleepless nights, but it probably won't threaten the marriage by itself.

You don't say exactly what it is you are guilty about. Without knowing that, it's hard to give any advice on how to deal with it. Are you guilty about doing something that society and most religions consider taboo? If so, then you are just running into the effects of five decades of social shaping. It's to be expected, especially when you plunge into the lifestyle at warp speed. (Not saying that disapprovingly).

Best of luck.

[walrus0115]

quote:

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Originally posted by Quin:
[QUOTE]I could go into a long diatribe on history/eras/cultures/religion that have led to the guilt that people experience with sex, more particularly females, but this is not the thread for that.

Quin

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I think that you SHOULD start a thread about exactly that. It seems that we have brushed a lot of tender nerves on the guilt subject. A topic about how our culture has conditioned us to feel guilty about sexual pleasure is essential. I look forward to reading educated views on the subject.

I think that my wife and I are lucky as we were both over-educated as scientists. Over time science has a tendency to allow you to dismiss any guilt or regret associated with a departure from our dogma. We're so used to disagreeing (with Christian dogma) on other subjects, sex just seems to fall in line. (I think that's why I've kinda stayed away from this thread until now, I had my identity crisis long ago and ain't lookin' back or feelin' guilty for anybody or anything! )

[Quin]

quote:

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I think that you SHOULD start a thread about exactly that. It seems that we have brushed a lot of tender nerves on the guilt subject. A topic about how our culture has conditioned us to feel guilty about sexual pleasure is essential. I look forward to reading educated views on the subject.

I think that my wife and I are lucky as we were both over-educated as scientists. Over time science has a tendency to allow you to dismiss any guilt or regret associated with a departure from our dogma. We're so used to disagreeing (with Christian dogma) on other subjects, sex just seems to fall in line. (I think that's why I've kinda stayed away from this thread until now, I had my identity crisis long ago and ain't lookin' back or feelin' guilty for anybody or anything!)

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Maybe I'll take some time and write a post on just that! My daughter left today for college and I'm probably going to find myself with a LOT of time on my hands and instead of sitting around weeping and being depressed because my one and only has left (which I'll probably do anyhow), I can try to write a brief (LOL I don't know that it could be brief in any way!!) post and begin a thread.

Scientists? YIKES. I have a saying, 'Ask me no science or math and I'll tell you no lies'. I can tolerate science stuff much longer than I can math before I get a headache.

In just sitting here thinking, the post on guilt could really start a great discussion...especially with me being a woman and my recognizing the guilt that have been hammered into women from day one...the treatment of women in history which only led to the reinforcement of the guilt not to mention the shame...lots of shame involved with that guilt. One can't argue that women have much more guilt than men overall. And I think that leds to one of the reason why there aren't more couples and even single females within the lifestyle. And then talk about being a Catholic woman...YIKES!!! Guilt city!!

Quin

[JustAskJulie]

quote:

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Originally posted by L & D:
I just don't understand what I have done to alienate folks here but apparently I have.. Funny thing I really have respected people like Quinn, Julie, and most of the rest of you but since I am obviously not liked or wanted I promise never to post here again if Julie will be kind enough to remove my profile. The irony of it all is that it was the encouragement of Julie that helped us to try swinging. Now apearently even she has turned on me. I entend to only send one mor message on this board,a private message to Julie requesting that all my posts and my profile be removed from this site. If you don't hear from me again, you will know she complied with my wishes.

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You think I turned on you just because the advice I gave you wasn't what you wanted to hear? Because my advice concurred with many other more experienced swingers on this board (some with more experience than myself)? No, I haven't turned on you. I have spoken the truth and you just don't want to hear it AGAIN.

If you choose to leave that is up to you, but I will not remove your previous posts. Hopefully, some other newbies will come along at a later date and learn something from both your posts and the responses to them.

[OhioCouple]

Julie,

I am glad that you are not going to remove the posts as it does make it difficult to understand a thread when they have been deleted. There was much advice given here that many people can utilize, whether they be a newbie or an "oldie"....(not meant to be a slam here to those that have been in this lifesyle for a while). Jealousy and Guilt are BOTH very powerful emotions and all couples should have them in "check" before venturing into the swinging world and when those issues come up they should be addressed immediately!

Lori ~ Geez.... hope I don't need to edit! (Sorry couldn't resist)