We gave in to temptation...

[DocWill]

Well, we gave in to temptation this weekend.

Some of you may remember the first post we made here, but if you don’t… let me bring you up to speed in the quickest possible way:

Prior to a couple of months ago we only had ONE sexual experience that involved another person besides ourselves. Long story short- it was a “limp experience” and our fantasy at the time (MFM) never went through to completion (on his part, not mine ). However, we’ve talked, fantasized, and fucked with the intention to “play” at some point if the situation presented its self long before we even got married. That being said, last summer we went to a beach house with a couple we’ve known for a little over five years. The second night there we all ended up naked on the beach and having sex with our respective partners. Later on, Mrs. Will mentioned how hot it would have been to have them in the room with us- and maybe even, well, you know. From that point on there had been A LOT of sexual tension between the four of us- mostly just wandering eyes, flirty comments, etc. Then, sometime this March what I like to call the “perfect storm” found us all together again, enjoying each other’s company and discussing sex. The other wife told me, and then told Mrs. Will, that she (known as “L”) and her husband (known as “N”) wanted to get naked in our bed. We did… and some things happened short of full swap- and it went well WHILE it was happening. After the encounter (maybe 2 days later), the other wife experienced some “buyer’s remorse” mostly related to her religious beliefs and apologized to us for her behavior. Over the next couple of weeks a lot of things happened:

1. Thanks to some sage advice we received on this forum, we decided that trying to repeat the experience was not worth risking their marriage- or ours for that matter.

2. The other wife said that she came to terms with her “remorse” and she invited us to have a foursome not once, but three times since the initial encounter. All three times we politely declined and went home.

3. Since the first encounter, my wife and I have met two other couples in the LS and have enjoyed ourselves completely.

4. The sexual tension between the four of us has been palpable. Since we are close friends we do see them at least once or twice during the weekend. There have been subtle glances, some touching (like “L” rubbing her leg on mine under a table), and some mild suggestive conversations.

So, here’s where the story starts. On the 4th a group of five couples came to our lake house for some boating and BBQ- of course “N” and “L” were there. Mind you, everyone there besides us is vanilla. Prior to the weekend, we all agreed to keep it an early day and end the evening at about 6:30 so everyone could get home and watch the fireworks. “N” and “L” had decided to stay with us, on the boat, for dinner and then fireworks on the lake. So we got to the dock and dropped everyone off, said our goodbyes, and pulled away from the doc to go to a calm cove for dinner. After dinner we sat around and started chatting- and then the sex talk came up. Now, these two are who we consider our best friends- so nothing’s off the table when it comes to conversation, and as you might have guessed, we started talking about our experience together during the initial encounter. “L” mentioned that she was surprised that we declined their invitations to play- to which we responded with, “We don’t think you two are ready to go in that direction, and we don’t want to be the reason you two end up having marital problems. Our friendship is too important to us.” That caught “L” by surprise because she thought we were just not attracted to them. We assured her that wasn’t the case, and that we could “feel” the sexual tension in the air, but chose legitimate concern over passion. “L” went on to explain, in a very light and non-pressuring way, that they had talked about it in detail, liked the experience, and had been having recurring fantasy’s ever since- that actually improved their sex-life.

During a break in the conversation Mrs. Will and I went top-deck to have a cigarette (Yes, I’m a doctor, but I only smoke when I drink… and I only drink when I’m not on call- which rarely happens, so don’t give me any shit ). During our conversation Mrs. Will says to me, “You know, we’re going to end up fucking them before the summer is over don’t you?” To which I responded, “Yeah, I see it getting there, but so many people in the LS look down on having sex with vanilla friends because of the relationship dynamics- and they have WAY more experience with this than we do.” We then went into a conversation about the two other couples we had been with and Mrs. Will made a comment that about something that I hadn’t even noticed until she said it, “Yes, it’s been a lot of fun- but there’s not really any connection there, and if we keep seeing these couples there’s eventually going to be some deeper connection- like true friendship. So tell me, what’s wrong with having the friendship first?” That blew my mind. While I was trying to find something intelligent to say back to her, “N” came top-deck to join us. Since he’s my best friend I asked him his thoughts. He explained that we were the only ones they would be willing to do this with- and that “L” really wanted it to happen because she finally realized that wanting to have sex with other people was something she WANTED to do. Then “L” joined us and Mrs. Will and I told them that we had three other experiences with two other couples since our first encounter. “L” was shocked- but in a good way. She jokingly pushed Mrs. Will and asked her if she (“L”) was so bad that she (Mrs. Will) went looking for alternatives. Mrs. Will pushed her back and said, “It’s not that- but you know Doc and I were looking to live out some fantasies. Just because you couldn’t handle it didn’t mean we were going to stop looking.” “L” was amazed at the laid back nature of Mrs. Will’s remark. She is, after all, one of the most conservative women we all know- and the ease and comfort she had with telling “L” that we had been swinging blew her away- in a good way. So we had a little more chit-chat about what it was like until “L” suggested that we go skinny dipping- enter giving in to temptation.

We had made no conscious decision to play with them, but after we were all in the water, “L” made directly for Mrs. Will. “N” and I just kind of tailed off away from the boat- out of ear shot. A few minutes later we see them kiss. I looked over to “N” and said, “Well, I don’t have any condoms- you?” He shook his head “no” and I said, “Well, what do you think?” He sat there treading water for a minute and said, “We’re both good with going bareback if you are.” Now I’m excited… and Mr. Happy pitched a tent in less than record time, but I’ll get to that later. Our conversation was interrupted when “L” told us they were going back to the boat and to the stateroom. I told “N” we should give them some time- so we took another 10-15 minutes to make our way back to the boat. When we go on board we could hear their moans. We toweled off and went below only to find Mrs. Will and “L” going at it in a semi-sideways 69. I lay down behind Mrs. Will and started kissing her neck- and quietly as I could I told her that there were no condoms on board. She whispered in my ear, “So, we’re clean, they’re clean… what’s the problem?” Both “N” and I are docs… so testing is mandatory- especially considering we both practice emergency care. I then whispered in her ear again that as long as she was okay with it- so was I. I stood up off the bed to get a better view. “N” joined me on the loveseat and I told him no need to worry about condoms- but I did ask him if they had any “rules” we needed to follow, and “N” said, with a dirty smile, “Don’t make her cum too quickly.” By this time “L” was on all fours sucking Mrs. Will with her perfect, and I do mean prefect ass, only a few feet away. I moved to her ass, and “N” moved to Mrs. Will’s mouth. Let the fun begin. After eating “L’s” pussy for about 15 minutes and taking full explorative feel of her ass, I stood up and slid my now raging cock into her pussy. She didn’t miss a lick on Mrs. Will and only moaned deeply as I began to stroke her. At the same time I noticed Mrs. Will sucking “N’s” manhood very willingly. At times like these, extraordinary events, I take a mental picture and put a little word to it- my word was “amazing!” I had wanted to fuck “L” ever since the first time I put my tongue in her pussy back in March. I gently grabbed her hips and pulled them back- sort of nudging her to get her back. Once there I slid on top of her, kissing her toes first as I pass, then her knees, the insides of her thighs, to just below her rib cage… followed by one slow long lick from her belly button to the crease in her neck- making sure to leave it very wet. By the time my face was level with hers I was inside her again- at that moment I blew on her chest where the wet mark was left to finish the chill of the sensation (this is a signature move- has never failed me). I said, “Hi, “L,” this has been a long time coming- and I’m glad to be here inside of you- you have no idea.” She simply threw her left leg over my shoulder and grinded her pussy as far up on my cock as it could go- then she told me to be still while she fucked me. I glanced over to look at Mrs. Will who was now riding “N”… and from time to time she would bend over to let those 36D’s and their nipples to find “N’s” lips and tongue. I took my left hand and grabbed her hair and pulled on it… thrusting her back straight, and got up off of “L” to give her a deep kiss. She smiled at me… and said, “You better get back to work.” With that, I took “L’s” other leg and put it on my shoulder. “L” has expressed to us on several occasions that “N” can’t make her cum with vaginal sex- but I said to myself, “Let’s give it a try.” I started slowly, and she moaned… and then I went quicker until I was pounding all the hate I have for everything out and into her pussy. She came in less than four minutes. The next comment “N” made finally set all of our minds at ease, “L, make sure you’re taking notes over there.” We all laughed. I rolled off of “L” so she could get her wits together- she was still babbling about that being only her second intercourse orgasm- ever. “N” was hitting Mrs. Will doggy style, so I slid my cock under her mouth and she began to get the full effects of a true MFM position. “N” then laid her on her side, facing me, and went from there for bit until “L” started licking both “N’s” dick and Mrs. Will’s clit. That was hot. Then the fun started. “L” suggested that the girls get on their knees with one man in the back and one man in the front- so we did it. I got the back first… and this was where I lost it. After about four changes from pussy to pussy, and trying to figure out their distinctive little inside shapes, temperatures, and level of wetness, I found myself pulling out of “L’s” pussy- only to have her quickly turn around to catch the first rope on her eye- but she didn’t miss the next four that came out and went straight to the back of her throat. She took my whole cock back and swallowed everything I had- and kept sucking. I managed to back away in time to see “N” take Mrs. Will’s ass from behind again- pumping harder and harder, while hearing her pant with passion, until he lost himself inside her (“N” is fixed BTW). They sat there for about a minute before they both lay down. That’s when “L” went in a got her husband’s load from inside my wife- who later admitted to me that she then experienced her third orgasm by having “L’s” tongue deep indie her pussy sucking his sperm out.

At that point we fell asleep for a few hours. At about 2Am we all woke up to another boat in our cove laying trout lines. Nothing to worry about- so I went top-deck to smoke. “N” cam up and joined me, and together we had another beer and gave each other a high-five. Our debrief was done- that’s all it took. A few minutes later the girls came up, wrapped in a bed sheet together, and we all talked about what had just happened. EVERYONE was laughing, touching, and completely caught up in the moment. The girls even gave each other a kiss or three. We decided to go back down and try for round two- and we did. And we did it again for round three. By 8am we all ready to head back to the slip, take a shower, and meet for breakfast at 1030am.

In the room, I asked Mrs. Will what she thought- and her response to me was, “Now, THAT’S what this is all about!” I agreed- having close friends who are emotionally tied into a friendship was 10X better than any of the experiences we had prior to finally hooking up with our friends. We all got changed and met for breakfast- and everything was NORMAL. They helped us get the boat on the slip lift, and then we decided to meet that night for a card game.

On the way home I mentioned to Mrs. Will that we missed all the fireworks. She promptly slapped me in the back of the head… and we both started laughing. As a side note, Mrs. Will’s birthday was on the 4th. I didn’t get the connection until about five seconds later. I asked her what she thought again, and she told me that she would much rather play with “N” and “L” than strangers because it just felt right. I had to agree. The flow, the humor, the ease of transition, the comfort level, and everything else was just 10 out of 10. There moments of quiet love making followed by animal fucking… each time we do this it just gets better.

Today we went and played cards at their house before dinner. It was all casual conversation- like nothing happed. When they left, I shook “N’s” hand and gave him a hug, and “L” hugged Mrs. Will and whispered something in her ear. Then they went home.

Of course I had to ask Mrs. Will what “L’s” comment was about. She then told me we were all going to Montana in ten days to their cabin- and not to worry. She loved it, and wants to do it again soon.

Well, there you have it. We did our best to keep the sexual tension at bay, but our best was not good enough. Now we’re “swinging” with our friends- who used to be vanilla. Any you know what? I don’t see too much wrong with that right now.

Your thoughts?

[slevin]

Glad it all worked out so well. Giving them time to figure this out for themselves seemed to have done the trick.

To answer your wife's question: what is the difference between swinging with a couple then developing a friendship, and taking friends and developing a sexual relationship?

When you take someone you are already friends with and try to change that to include sexual activities you run the risk of losing that friendship. If the sex doesn't work out there is a good chance your friendship will no longer be the same, if you're able to maintain that friendship at all.

When meeting a new couple and having sex with them, you are establishing that sexual part of your interactions with them up front. If you develop a friendship with them on top of that you already have the sexual activities in play. You build a friendship based on all the aspects of your interactions with them.

For us, we are not willing to risk our friendships to try and develop a sexual relationship. It works out for people, like it did for you, but we aren't willing to take the risk.

Glad you had such a great time and I hope you continue to enjoy this foursome for a long time!

[fun4Ds]

All four of you are awesome, thank you for sharing your experience with us.

If your comfort is in friendship, there is nothing wrong with that the way I see it. Everyone finds what they are looking for sometimes

Happy belated Birthday, MrsWill


fun4ds

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by DocWill

We did our best to keep the sexual tension at bay, but our best was not good enough. ... Your thoughts?

Damn teenagers! Kept me up all night with that moaning you can hear for MILES over the still water of the lake. Never heard of something called "restraint", have you. Boy if only your parents knew what you were doing...and on their boat!

---

Glad you had a great time! My wife and I would enjoy just such a couple, but none of our vanilla friends (save one) strike us as even REMOTELY a swinging couple. If we happen upon them in the lifestyle, then great. That one we mentioned is in the lifestyle, but we don't want to play with them.

[SecretAsianMan]

Thank you for sharing!

Sounds like y'all had a WONDERFUL experience.

Some might say that y'all are seeking more of a "polyamorous"-connection (which some say has more emotional ties to your partners than just "swinging" -which some say is merely about the physical/sexual connection) ... which is a great thing!

I wish y'all many more wonderful adventures together.

[DocWill]

Originally Posted by slevin

Glad it all worked out so well. Giving them time to figure this out for themselves seemed to have done the trick.

To answer your wife's question: what is the difference between swinging with a couple then developing a friendship, and taking friends and developing a sexual relationship?

When you take someone you are already friends with and try to change that to include sexual activities you run the risk of losing that friendship. If the sex doesn't work out there is a good chance your friendship will no longer be the same, if you're able to maintain that friendship at all.

When meeting a new couple and having sex with them, you are establishing that sexual part of your interactions with them up front. If you develop a friendship with them on top of that you already have the sexual activities in play. You build a friendship based on all the aspects of your interactions with them.

For us, we are not willing to risk our friendships to try and develop a sexual relationship. It works out for people, like it did for you, but we aren't willing to take the risk.

Glad you had such a great time and I hope you continue to enjoy this foursome for a long time!

Thanks for the responses- your feedback helps us both process the situation a little better and gives us some insight that we might otherwise overlook. This forum is awesome!

Slevin- what you said about the difference between the two situations is exactly what I was thinking after I reread my post. After you made your post, the Mrs. and I talked a little more about the possibility of damaging the friendship. What we came up with might not sound like sensitive or sound reasoning, but I think it’s based on a reasonable and realistic fact of life, and that fact is: everything must come to an end at some point. Trust me, our decision to sleep with our friends didn’t come lightly. We literally talked about it for months. Our decision to NOT sleep with them after the first encounter was sound and made a lot of sense, but things changed. It went from us sort of pursuing them, to the other wife having some normal “remorse,” to us putting them off limits, and then finally to them pursuing us after they processed the experience. Our primary struggle at that point was trying to determine if we were just being selfish because we wanted them so bad… and could never really get them out of our heads.

Another thing we considered is that, based on a lot of initial experiences we’ve read about on this forum, a majority of people here, had or started their first group sexual experiences with friends or close acquaintances- especially when it comes to MFM and FMF first time experiences. There’s got to be something there for it to happen so often- and I think it has everything to do with trust and the comfort level between all the parties involved- and that was Mrs. Will’s take on it. She explained it like this: yes, we are very open-minded when it comes to sex with other people… but not to the point that either of us would be willing to separate, or go on a “date” alone. Do we trust each other enough for that to happen? Yes we do, BUT, that’s not what gets us off. We enjoy watching the other give and receive pleasure- that’s OUR thing and the main reason we decided to get into the LS. It’s the trust with other couples that she’s talking about. With us (and we’re NOT trying to knock ANYONE here) meeting strangers in an adult setting to satisfy mutual lusts is little unnerving and takes a lot of work. Yes, we were VERY lucky when we met two other couples where the chemistry was right, but after reading so many horror stories about “taking one for the team” or “having a miserable experience” (think motorcycle philosophy where eventually you’re going to wreck it- your fault or not) it was only going to be a matter of time before our bubble burst. Some people can roll with that stuff, pick up the bike and motor on. With us, I’m not so sure we could do that if we had a bad experience.

With these particular friends (“N” and “L”) you have to understand that the basics for hooking up with them were laid out before we had sex. We repeatedly expressed our concerns to them, we told them several times that making this decision could negatively impact their relationship with each other, and much less, us. They key was when they both said that we were the ONLY ones they were willing to explore with- because they knew and trusted us and because of how tight our relationship has been, especially over the past two years. Part of our mutual trust (and all four of us agreed on this) is that we all trust each other enough that our sexual encounters WON’T ruin the relationship if they stop for some reason. This is most easily explained when former lovers remain close friends for years- shit, my first babysitter was a gal my father used to have sex with when he was in his 20’s. They’re both 75 today and STILL send Christmas cards to each other.

The key here was the communication process. We all talked openly about it, we all expressed a desire for it to happen, and we all agreed that anything that happens in the bedroom stays in the bedroom. Like I said in the original post- it’s the “perfect storm.” Four sexually attracted people willing to take their friendship to the next level in the name of sex because they know, trust, and respect each other is something worth exploring, and for us it seems to work- and I can’t even begin to explain the level of pure comfort and ease with which we all made love on Sunday, or how “normal” we felt later that night and the next day. It’s like our own little secret- and something five other close couples we hang around with know nothing about- so there’s excitement from that also.

If for some reason the relationship goes bad- then it probably would have gone bad anyway- sex or not. Risking a friendship means anything from telling your buddy that his wife’s been cheating on him, to having a “sit down” to discuss the “behavior” of their kids, to refusing to be the emotional pillar during a time of need. Hell, I’ve seen years long friendships end because a dog took a dump in the neighbor’s yard (not kidding). So to us, risking a friendship that’s been mutually desired, expressed, and acted upon with something so liberating and rewarding as sex, is at this time, worth it to ALL four of us. I guess this is a “swinger’s ethical issue,” and I think that by looking at it by its parts, and not the taboo as a whole, that we have the potential for an exception to the rule.

Again, thanks for your post! Please feel free to contribute to the debate (if there is one), that’s how we learn according Socrates.

[DocWill]

Originally Posted by fun4Ds

All four of you are awesome, thank you for sharing your experience with us.

If your comfort is in friendship, there is nothing wrong with that the way I see it. Everyone finds what they are looking for sometimes

Happy belated Birthday, MrsWill


fun4ds

Mrs. Will said, "Thanks for the b-day wish! It was a great one!"

[DocWill]

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

Damn teenagers! Kept me up all night with that moaning you can hear for MILES over the still water of the lake. Never heard of something called "restraint", have you. Boy if only your parents knew what you were doing...and on their boat!

---

Glad you had a great time! My wife and I would enjoy just such a couple, but none of our vanilla friends (save one) strike us as even REMOTELY a swinging couple. If we happen upon them in the lifestyle, then great. That one we mentioned is in the lifestyle, but we don't want to play with them.

Yeah, we never considered this couple until we saw them naked on the beach that night. Then it was like "poof!* they were all we could talk about when we were having sex. That died off until the night it came out that Mrs. Will got turned on by thinking about inviting them into our bed. Once "L" heard that- her fire was lit. The rest is history.

Oh, and we're NOT considering making this a habit. We've just known these two for so long, and there's such a high level of sexual attraction between us, that it couldn't be ignored any longer. Yes, the temptation for ALL of us was too much to avoid... and after the first encounter our relationship with them kind of suffered a little bit- but it wasn't because of what happened, it was because we kept turning them down. They thought we were turned off- and that was exactly the opposite of how we were feeling. Once we all talked about it and then did it- we went back to being normal friends in like five minutes and it was obviously noticeable to everyone that the "cloud" had been lifted.

[DocWill]

Originally Posted by SecretAsianMan

Thank you for sharing!

Sounds like y'all had a WONDERFUL experience.

Some might say that y'all are seeking more of a "polyamorous"-connection (which some say has more emotional ties to your partners than just "swinging" -which some say is merely about the physical/sexual connection) ... which is a great thing!

I wish y'all many more wonderful adventures together.

Yes, the "poly issue" has crossed our minds- but there are so many different definitions out there that we won't use it to describe our "thing."

You have to know us all to understand it a little better. As couples, we care for each other because we're friends- but that's where it stops. Mrs. Will and I could never, even under the most crazy circumstances or scenarios, see ourselves falling in love with either of them on our own. They are completely opposite from us for that to happen. I know, “opposites attract”- and that’s probably the reason we hooked up as couples, but individually (aside from their looks), they don't possess the things we find attractive- at all!

I just relayed this topic to Mrs. Will, these are her words exactly: “If I thought for one minute that you could fall for “L” this would have never happened.” Now she’s reminding me of an intern I had a few years ago who I adamantly refused to believe had a crush on me. Mrs. Will met her one time, told me the intern was smitten with me, forbid me from having and social contact with her, and told me that if I ever betrayed her trust that she’d walk out the door. I laughed at her. When the internship was over, the woman came up to me and told me that she loved me… and then offered to show me how much. I told Mrs. Will and she laughed her ass off for 15 minutes saying, “I told you so” the whole time. Needless to say, I trust her intuition. Mrs. Will is a possessive woman when it comes to protecting her emotional territory- and I’m the same way. I have no doubt that both of us would end this current situation if anything like that happened. To us, that’s not what this is about. Besides, we are so deeply in love with each other that we’ve agreed that we couldn’t live without the other… that’s an honest statement, and one we take very seriously.

No, this thing we have right now is based on sex and the ability to have sex with other people we can trust and feel comfortable with without having to worry about the potential threats “others” may pose to our relationship (or ours to theirs for that matter- “L” really thinks I’m an asshole- she just likes the way I look). Trust me; it’s just an opportunity that we had to take advantage of for those very reasons. Call it the “thousand year storm” if you will.

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by DocWill

my first babysitter was a gal my father used to have sex with when he was in his 20’s. They’re both 75 today and STILL send Christmas cards to each other.

...

The key here was the communication process.

...

I think that by looking at it by its parts, and not the taboo as a whole, that we have the potential for an exception to the rule.

There's no rule here to be an exception of from my perspective. There's no 'normal' in the swinging world. There are things that happen more frequently, things that happen less so, but each situation is different.

Some people lose contact with ex-girl/boyfriends. Some don't. You're right; it's quite possible to maintain a healthy, strong friendship with someone after the time period in your relationship in which you have sex with that person. I have a few such people in my life. Three of them were at my wedding.

I think you should be aware of (not wary of, but aware of) that being so close with this couple, and now engaging in very satisfying sexual play with them, there is I think a strong potential for developing a polyamorous quad.

I know you said...

Originally Posted by DocWill

we care for each other because we're friends- but that's where it stops. Mrs. Will and I could never, even under the most crazy circumstances or scenarios, see ourselves falling in love with either of them on our own. They are completely opposite from us for that to happen. I know, “opposites attract”- and that’s probably the reason we hooked up as couples, but individually (aside from their looks), they don't possess the things we find attractive- at all!

You're in uncharted territory here. A poly quad is not a typical relationship. You may find yourselves gaining things from being in love with your opposite in the quad, and find it comfortable as coming from a 'secondary'. You might find yourself logically refusing to believe you could fall in love with your opposite in this scenario, but feelings have little to do with logic.

I think you should tool yourself for that possibility; research it (there's plenty of poly resources on the web), discuss it with your wife, and certainly with the other couple if it appears there is a poly scenario developing. You've approached your swinging relationship with N and L in a very mature and responsible way. Continue that. Do not assume in any respect that the waters are smooth sailing. Just as with any good, solid marriage you will need to work on this relationship and ensure the stability of it, whether it becomes a poly quad or not.

You have an opportunity here for a wonderful, decades long relationship. If so, the trickiest part will be the next year.

Originally Posted by DocWill

Oh, and we're NOT considering making this a habit. We've just known these two for so long, and there's such a high level of sexual attraction between us, that it couldn't be ignored any longer.

Obviously I don't know much about your relationship with them but the words you have written here. That said, I would be very, very surprised if this did not develop. I don't know that I would call it a 'habit', but I think you will find yourselves enjoying the sexual company of this couple many times over the next few months. There's a bunch of energy here, and containing it would be very difficult (and I think not desirable).

Originally Posted by DocWill

Once we all talked about it and then did it- we went back to being normal friends in like five minutes and it was obviously noticeable to everyone that the "cloud" had been lifted.

Sometimes the hardest things in friendships and relationships are the things that aren't said, aren't understood. In the scenario you find yourself in, I would make sure you maintain open lines of communication. There's a lot of balls to be juggled here, but that does not mean it's fraught with danger. It will take time and attention.

I'm sure I speak for many here that we're curious to see how this develops over the next few months. Keep us posted please!

[DocWill]

B, you made a good point when you said that we should consider the possibility of this turning into a poly quad relationship- if it isn’t one already.

After a little reflection I think we already had a closer than usual relationship with N and L prior to any sexual activity occurring. When N and I were in Iraq together the girls got really close. Even though they don’t have a lot in common, they spent weeks at a time living together over the course of 15 months (nothing sexual happened between them, but I think that’s where their mutual attraction started). Of course N and I have known each other for well over 10 years now. We were enlisted together, went to med-school together, and we went to war together. We’ve been through a lot of crazy times and know each other’s darkest secrets. We’re probably as close as two guys can get without having been brothers. That’s why I think there was little, if any, issue with us being so open about having a foursome and sharing our wives- because we trust each other that much. With the girls I think it’s a little different. They were actually the catalysts that got the ball rolling in the first place. Both of them are bi-curious, if not all together bisexual (even though I doubt either one of them would opt for a same sex relationship if they were single). Mrs. Will had told me on several occasions that she found L incredibly attractive- and after our beach experience, she let it out that she wanted to have sex with L. When L heard about that, she was the one who initiated our first experience as a group and her focus was on Mrs. Will. We think things just went a little too quickly for her when the guys got involved. I don’t really think L fully considered how she felt about having another male sexual partner, or how she would feel if N had sex with Mrs. Will. The result was a lot of confusion- most of it due to a lack of forward thinking on her part, and a lack of communication prior to jumping into bed on their part.

What really got me thinking about your comment about the poly quad issue was that our relationship kind of took a hit after L had “remorse” issues… and AFTER we politely refused to sleep with them. N and I were fine, but the girls put up a little wall between each other. After talking about it as a group, we found out that the girl’s feelings were hurt- L because she thought Mrs. Will didn’t fully appreciate the situation or wasn’t attracted, and Mrs. Will because she thought L held us responsible for involving her with something she wasn’t completely comfortable with. Once we cleared the air and had sex, that all went away. We all really do enjoy being around each other- and we spend so much time together, have such open minds about sex, and have discussed so many intimate details that it was almost a foregone conclusion that we would all end up in bed together. Again, it’s the “perfect storm” which is why I think we kind of find ourselves in relative uncharted territory. I don’t doubt that this has happened before with a lot of other couples- in fact, I’m quite certain it has, I just don’t think it’s really talked about because those relationships are exclusive and don’t necessarily fit the “swinger’s mold.” Where I have my doubts is that individually (meaning guy/girl emotional dynamics), there’s really no common ground. While we do find each other sexually attractive, there’s not really any kind of nurturing overtone with our interests. Perhaps a better explanation is that I don’t think any of us (male to female or vice-versa) wants to take from the other something that’s individually personal for ourselves. With the girls, I again think it’s something different. I think they have a bond that’s both emotional and sexual- and the sexual relationship we now have is being driven by them. With me and N, we’re just happy to have different sexual partners who happen to be extremely attractive and open about sex.

Wow, how many revelations can I have in the course of one afternoon?

As for my “not making it a habit” comment. I was talking about getting involved with vanilla friends. I think our “habit” of having sex with N and L will continue. We’ve already set aside Saturday night as a quick getaway to the city- and booked one suite, and we’re heading to Montana for our annual vacation on Tuesday. The girls have not stopped talking about this past weekend- and they’ve been shopping on-line at Victoria’s Secret together. I think these next two weeks will be pretty interesting.

[SecretAsianMan]

Originally Posted by DocWill

Yes, the "poly issue" has crossed our minds- but there are so many different definitions out there that we won't use it to describe our "thing."

You have to know us all to understand it a little better. As couples, we care for each other because we're friends- but that's where it stops. Mrs. Will and I could never, even under the most crazy circumstances or scenarios, see ourselves falling in love with either of them on our own. They are completely opposite from us for that to happen. I know, “opposites attract”- and that’s probably the reason we hooked up as couples, but individually (aside from their looks), they don't possess the things we find attractive- at all!

I just relayed this topic to Mrs. Will, these are her words exactly: “If I thought for one minute that you could fall for “L” this would have never happened.” Now she’s reminding me of an intern I had a few years ago who I adamantly refused to believe had a crush on me. Mrs. Will met her one time, told me the intern was smitten with me, forbid me from having and social contact with her, and told me that if I ever betrayed her trust that she’d walk out the door. I laughed at her. When the internship was over, the woman came up to me and told me that she loved me… and then offered to show me how much. I told Mrs. Will and she laughed her ass off for 15 minutes saying, “I told you so” the whole time. Needless to say, I trust her intuition. Mrs. Will is a possessive woman when it comes to protecting her emotional territory- and I’m the same way. I have no doubt that both of us would end this current situation if anything like that happened. To us, that’s not what this is about. Besides, we are so deeply in love with each other that we’ve agreed that we couldn’t live without the other… that’s an honest statement, and one we take very seriously.

No, this thing we have right now is based on sex and the ability to have sex with other people we can trust and feel comfortable with without having to worry about the potential threats “others” may pose to our relationship (or ours to theirs for that matter- “L” really thinks I’m an asshole- she just likes the way I look). Trust me; it’s just an opportunity that we had to take advantage of for those very reasons. Call it the “thousand year storm” if you will.

Yeah... it's a semantic definition -thing at this point.

However y'all choose to do this "swinging"-thing, I'm glad to hear y'all had a wonderful time

[DocWill]

Originally Posted by SecretAsianMan

Yeah... it's a semantic definition -thing at this point.

However y'all choose to do this "swinging"-thing, I'm glad to hear y'all had a wonderful time

Thanks, SAM. We both appreciate the feedback. This site and everyone's comments have helped us mature a little faster (and avoid mistakes) than we would have on our own.

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by DocWill

Thanks, SAM. We both appreciate the feedback. This site and everyone's comments have helped us mature a little faster (and avoid mistakes) than we would have on our own.

And that's my concern vis-a-vis a poly quad scenario developing. There is no set definition of what a poly arrangement is. In one sense, you're already in a poly quad. You indicated that your wife and L have an emotional bond. So, you love your wife. N loves his wife L. Your wife and L love each other? Is that the "emotional bond"? I agree with SAM that it's semantics.

I'm not interested in attempting to label this arrangement as poly. I am interested in making sure that you're aware of the possibility of it developing, if it hasn't already, and being properly tooled to manage that situation. There are potential pitfalls here.

Both your wife and L are, as you state, bi-curious or bi period. I infer from that this is the first same sex experience for both of them. Tied into this is an emotional bond between them. There is a relationship. That will need attention to properly, sanely maintain.

There's potential concerns of where you want this to be a year from now. I've your vested in only the here and now, with no consideration of what the future portends with this arrangement, you may be disappointed with how things go. With a standard swinging relationship with multiple encounters with the same couple or single, if things sour you just move on. This isn't that sort of relationship. The tools you already have at your disposal for maintaining strong friendships and strong relationships are most likely more appropriate. I'm not suggesting setting up rules, or anything silly like that. I'm saying approaching this as a relationship may be more beneficial, even if it's not by any definition poly, than approaching it as a swinging encounter.

You and N having served together overseas, along with the years spent going to medical school together serves as a very strong basis for a bond between the two of you. I know well of what you speak. I have had the pleasure of two friends who I considered in some respects closer to me than my siblings. One is a former girlfriend. We are extremely close, and the relationship is much like a sister-brother one now. There's no 'spark' between us now (we even tried to see if there was one, a year before I met my now wife). But the friends bond is very strong. It's been 20 years since we broke up, but the bond we have has grown stronger if anything.

The natural trust you share with N alone makes this an unusual (not saying not normal) situation. Add on that your wife and L spent considerable time together while both of you were overseas. There's emotional bonds galore here. Saying there's no poly situation here when there's no particular emotional bond between yourself and L and your wife and N I think is missing reality to some degree.

Again, I'm not after a label, but after a recognition that this is something more comprehensive than a roll in the hay with a swing partner. It's far, far deeper than that. Attempting to separate the great sex you have all enjoyed with each other as a sexual fling separate from your deep friendships I think is problematic. It's integral to you as a double couple, not a separate, containable thing.

Regardless, at this point it all sounds fantastically wonderful! I hope that this weekend and Montana all go very well indeed, and that you all have a terrific time together.

Also, Victoria's Secret may not be the best place for everything your wives might like. There's some wonderful online outlets for some very romantic lingerie. Secrets in Lace comes to mind as one example. My wife finds VS a pale shadow of SiL. We've ordered things from them before, and have always been very satisfied with their products and service.

[DocWill]

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

And that's my concern vis-a-vis a poly quad scenario developing. There is no set definition of what a poly arrangement is. In one sense, you're already in a poly quad. You indicated that your wife and L have an emotional bond. So, you love your wife. N loves his wife L. Your wife and L love each other? Is that the "emotional bond"? I agree with SAM that it's semantics.

So semantics it is. Here's the best breakdown Mrs. Will and I can give to you:

(Mrs. Will.) N and Doc's relationship is tied together because they are close friends- very close. Friendship love- yes, physical sex love- not in a million years. They do everything together, fix shit, consult on cases, and party. They tell each other the hard truth and they can push the buttons that they know will motivate the other, but it's not a competition thing- it's done to get the other up to speed so they are never lacking or falling behind. They want to share the glory together- and have been doing that for well over 10 years. If either were to lose the other, it would be a pretty damn dark time- and one I won't think about here.

As for me and "L", it's kind of the same but on a much smaller scale. We come from two different backgrounds. She was the super small-town beauty queen with some esteem issues, so she's bright and fun and bubbly, but she's also very unsure of herself when it comes to being a woman (caught between small town values and her own emotions, wants, and desires). She loves to be the center of attention even when that attention is not really the best attention she should be getting. She's calmed down a a lot- and she is such a breath of fresh new air. I, on the other hand, am very demure (as Doc likes to say). I had a pretty boring life until I met, and then married, Doc. College, marriage, kids... something like that. I had been attracted to other women before; I just never WANTED to touch any of them in the way I wanted to touch her. So I told Doc what I was thinking and he let the cat out of the bag (which I knew he would). The next week we all ended up in a soft swap... even though it was more about us- the girls. When we talked about it that night, we got each other hot while holding hands and looking into each other's eyes. "L" was simply the perfect (though not the best thought out) woman for me to see just how Bi I would be willing to go. Well, we went Bi... and it was fun. When the guys joined it, L made a B-Line to Doc... and I told him to eat her. After that, she asked me if she could fuck him. Both Doc and I politely said, "Not this time- it's too quick, and we don't want to have too many issues to sort through in the AM." So the night ended. We think "L's" feelings got hurt- and that was not my intention. I wanted a well thought out set of scenarios... and what we were doing to that point had me turned on enough as it was without losing control. Yes, L and I have a love thing going on here- but it's more about being close friends like Doc and N. However, where the guys are not sensitive to their feelings, we are to our own. I care that she actually wants to explore with us- and enjoy us- and enjoy me. I care that I hope this "thing" doesn't contribute to a decline in the group's relationship. I also care that she cares... and you get my point. Do I wonder what it would be like to be with her alone? Yes, and last night we took care of that- and it was excellent. So, if a gun was held to my head, I'd have to say that I have an emotional bond with her- but that bond has NOTHING to do with hurting our relationships we have with our men. We shop, we talk, we hang out like any couple of women you know- only now we're doing together FOR something we can DO together- if you get my point. The tell tale here is that we're both doing this for our boys... and for us. And if all four can't be around- nothing happens. (Rule I, unless the 3rd party agrees to it),

(Doc Will again) I think she hit that nail on the head, so to speak. My relationship with L is one based purely on sex. Yes, I like her as a person, but when she's wearing clothes and doing "normal" things- she's really just an afterthought to me- something like; "Yeah, when she bends over, I love to hit that ass." I'm not thinking about getting her alone, or trying to "figure her out." I like her, she's nice, fun, and sexy as hell- but outside of those things- she lacks almost every trait I would need to build a relationship. I tease her quite a bit (she was a trophy wife after all), mostly about her lack of culture, and I know it pisses her off. She may like me, and she may fuck me (and it does get hot) but again, I think we just fuck the dislike we have for the other out- and there, there we get mutual respect from the other.

Leaving N and Mrs. Will for last was no mistake. N likes sex and so does Mrs. Will. N's had a thing for Mrs. Will for a while (she's a smokin' hot Asian woman with 36D's) and I don't really blame him. But that's where it stops. N could not tolerate Mrs. Will- she's driven, she's successful, she's got a great education, and she gets super sex from me whenever she wants it. N on the other hand, while very smart, can't carry on a conversation to save his life. He's good looking, but has no idea about sports, fighting, or really any masculine hobby- and that's a big NO NO with Mrs. Will. Long story short- he wants to fuck her, and she fucks him because she likes to fuck. Make sense?

Together we make a perfect storm. We all love to fuck the others. We're comfortable when fuckin’ because there's no reason to be uncomfortable. We all know what we have with our true partners- and NONE of us could picture a "life swap." Maybe if we had two or three pointing in the same directions, but we only have one, the girls, and that's a shallow one at that. Besides, if the girls decided to leave us... N and I would be in Thailand so quick that you wouldn't hear the door close before we were on our way to the airport.

Nope- we'll let this ride itself out. Maybe another month, a year, 10 years... who knows. If it gets complicated, and deeper feeling come up, we'll talk about it. But for now, we're in shallow, and I mean SHALLOW water right now.

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

I'm not interested in attempting to label this arrangement as poly. I am interested in making sure that you're aware of the possibility of it developing, if it hasn't already, and being properly tooled to manage that situation. There are potential pitfalls here.

We are aware, even talked about it quite openly last night. We all seem to agree that we'll become VERY "close friends" who can explore and swing when the four of us agree to do so, but more importantly- make that swinging much more fun than trying to hook-up with people who don't have those combined 25 years worth of actual history in their back pockets. This weekend was a good example:

Texts:

L to Mrs. Will- "Do you guys want to go up to the city on Saturday? We were thinking good food, good wine, nice suit (with one bed).

Mrs. Will to L: "Yeah, that sounds like fun. Depends on the time they end shift. You should come over and see what we can buy from VS so we can knock their socks off,

L to Mrs. Will- “LOL... great idea. I'm thinking a see through teddy, thong, and 5" platforms under that blue dress I wore at the wedding.

Mrs. Will to L- "Yes, they'll love that. I need a new bra to match my shoes. Not going to wear panties- just a dark summer dress.

L to Mrs. Will- "Okay, what time?

Mrs. Will to L- "As soon as you get of work, the quicker we order it, the sooner we can try it on together."

You get the picture.

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

Both your wife and L are, as you state, bi-curious or bi period. I infer from that this is the first same sex experience for both of them. Tied into this is an emotional bond between them. There is a relationship. That will need attention to properly, sanely maintain.

L has had many FMF's with her old BFF and her husband before L got married. That stopped, and she got the fever again when she found out Mrs. Will wanted to have sex with her. Being with another woman has always been a thing Mrs. Will has wanted to do. Perfect storm, like I said. If Saturday tells us anything, their hook-ups are for them to get a little freaky and to put on a show for the guys. Once we got there, and in the mix, they were happy to swap and play together during the rest of the night when certain positions and/or ideas were presented to them. It this is an issue... it's not a bad one yet. Again, we all talked about it (thanks to your post), and we all agreed that the girls are exploring their wants just like we are with them. No harm, no foul.

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

There's potential concerns of where you want this to be a year from now. I've your vested in only the here and now, with no consideration of what the future portends with this arrangement, you may be disappointed with how things go. With a standard swinging relationship with multiple encounters with the same couple or single, if things sour you just move on. This isn't that sort of relationship. The tools you already have at your disposal for maintaining strong friendships and strong relationships are most likely more appropriate. I'm not suggesting setting up rules, or anything silly like that. I'm saying approaching this as a relationship may be more beneficial, even if it's not by any definition poly, than approaching it as a swinging encounter.

Yes, we do call this a "relationship" now- no doubt about it. However, the relationship is based on sex and hanging out. We're not doing each other's house work or taking turns with the kids' issues. We're also not dropping work related, or even close family issues, down on our friend's backs. It's VERY normal before the kids are in bed... and it's even normal while we're hanging out. But when someone says,"You guys up for some sex?" We switch into fucking mode- the fun begins, and then it ends. Then Mrs. Will and I go home and fuck some more. In the morning I cut the grass, and she cleans up the house. We cook dinner and go to bed until the next weekend comes around. Yes, the sex and the lives have a very separate place in all of our lives.

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

You and N having served together overseas, along with the years spent going to medical school together serves as a very strong basis for a bond between the two of you. I know well of what you speak. I have had the pleasure of two friends who I considered in some respects closer to me than my siblings. One is a former girlfriend. We are extremely close, and the relationship is much like a sister-brother one now. There's no 'spark' between us now (we even tried to see if there was one, a year before I met my now wife). But the friends bond is very strong. It's been 20 years since we broke up, but the bond we have has grown stronger if anything.

The natural trust you share with N alone makes this an unusual (not saying not normal) situation. Add on that your wife and L spent considerable time together while both of you were overseas. There's emotional bonds galore here. Saying there's no poly situation here when there's no particular emotional bond between yourself and L and your wife and N I think is missing reality to some degree.

All very true. But this is a new generation where sex is not as taboo today as it was 20 years ago. We're all attracted, we're all VERY open minded, we have great trust and RESPECT for the other- and so far, we can handle it. Yes there are emotional bonds- there have to be just to get that trust and to earn that respect. We care for each other, but not in a way where we're going to cross some boundaries that could ruin any number of the relationships we have here. If you thought reading ONE person before you had sex was tough- try reading three. Trust me; we're all on the same sheet of music or what can happen and what certainly can't happen. If it does, we walk away and see what's left. However, I think we're getting this down to a real understanding at this point. N and L are N and L- and we are us. It's Occam’s Razor, my friend- and I'm a true believer in that.

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

Again, I'm not after a label, but after a recognition that this is something more comprehensive than a roll in the hay with a swing partner. It's far, far deeper than that. Attempting to separate the great sex you have all enjoyed with each other as a sexual fling separate from your deep friendships I think is problematic. It's integral to you as a double couple, not a separate, containable thing.

Regardless, at this point it all sounds fantastically wonderful! I hope that this weekend and Montana all go very well indeed, and that you all have a terrific time together.

Also, Victoria's Secret may not be the best place for everything your wives might like. There's some wonderful online outlets for some very romantic lingerie. Secrets in Lace comes to mind as one example. My wife finds VS a pale shadow of SiL. We've ordered things from them before, and have always been very satisfied with their products and service.

Yes, it's been a blast so far. You have no idea.

The separating thing could be a problem if we didn't talk about it. I don't see a separation being needed if the sex is part of the friendship. THAT would make things more confusing. No, we have our "red flags" out and they're agreed on by all four of us. Remember, we've known each other for five years and have gone through bad times and good times together. We just flow. We could have a party and speak no words... and STILL not feel uncomfortable because we know each other so well. We flow... there are no hidden agendas, or saved feelings... we actually WANT to do this- all of us. While we know it's not "normal" by society's standards, things like this have happened since before the written word. Maybe we're a little odd, but for us it just FEELS right.

In a year... it could be odd, but N and L will be leaving soon so we're agreed to do this as much as a possible until we can't.


Have a good night.