Isn't Vanilla Hunting Bad?

[Adam-n-Eve]

I was writing a comment to a woman who was upset by the fact that she'd been approached, along with her husband, a number of times by vanilla hunting swingers. She had a very negative view of swingers, and I was defending the community in general without really addressing the vanilla hunting.

Some of the things I talked about included the ideas we all hold so dear: that you must be in a stable relationship and talk about things before you get into swinging. But it was at this point when I realized just how wrong vanilla hunting is; how it goes against everything we as a community say we value about the process of getting into the lifestyle. People on this board tend to bring up the importance of things like communication and making sure the both partners are comfortable before taking such a big step, even when it's not exactly relevant to the actual topic. We tell people here that you shouldn't rush into things and that you need to make sure you're both ready, etc.

So then why is it OK to go out, find a couple and thrust them into the lifestyle without all those important considerations? Why is OK to grab some random couple and put their relationship in jeopardy in order to gratify ourselves?

I don't think I've ever heard anyone speak out against vanilla hunting. We've never done it, but yet we never really thought about its consequence for a vanilla couple before either. I think people can be forgiven for not thinking it through, but after having given it some thought, it appears to be a wholly unacceptable practice.

I have to say the the woman I had been writing to had every right to be upset that someone would endanger her marriage for their own short-term sexual gratification.

What do you think? Is vanilla hunting wrong? If not, why not?

If this has been discussed in detail, please forgive me. I did a search, but since you can't search a multi-word term like "vanilla hunting" I ended up with a billion results for "vanilla," which is so common I might as well have been looking through the entire forum

[LikeMinds321]

Originally Posted by Adam-n-Eve

I was writing a comment to a woman who was upset by the fact that she'd been approached, along with her husband, a number of times by vanilla hunting swingers...

Do you have more information on these approaches? Such as where did they occur, and how soon after meeting the couple did the swingers ask them for sex?



Great topic for discussion, btw, thanks.

LM

[exploringRM]

If we were to vanilla hunt I think we would look for the ones that are swingers but don't know it yet. We all were vanilla at some point and I bet many might have entered the l/s sooner if we were "hunted". If we were to hunt such prey we would take some time to see if there are any clues if the couple might be interested in playing.

But if a hunted couple needs convincing or is reluctant, then it should stop there. And that realization should occur well before the prey knew what was going on.

[Adam-n-Eve]

Originally Posted by exploringRM

If we were to vanilla hunt I think we would look for the ones that are swingers but don't know it yet. We all were vanilla at some point and I bet many might have entered the l/s sooner if we were "hunted". If we were to hunt such prey we would take some time to see if there are any clues if the couple might be interested in playing.

But if a hunted couple needs convincing or is reluctant, then it should stop there. And that realization should occur well before the prey knew what was going on.

But, is anyone really ready if they haven't talked about it? Sure, many couples would have entered into the lifestyle sooner if they'd been hunted, but how many would have had big fights the next morning because one of them did something that hurt the other?

How many people on this site would offered the advice: "don't think about, just hookup with the first couple you like!" Ready or or not, if they haven't talked about it, there's just too much danger that they're going to regret it. I don't think it's fair.

[Adam-n-Eve]

Originally Posted by LikeMinds321

Do you have more information on these approaches? Such as where did they occur, and how soon after meeting the couple did the swingers ask them for sex?



Great topic for discussion, btw, thanks.

LM

Honestly, both of the approaches seemed pretty clumsy. She only described two: one was a couple they met in a hotel bar, and the other had been friends for a couple of years.

Actually, the strangers weren't as clumsy as the friends. The strangers asked them up to their room and then the wife suggested that the woman writing the article have sex with her husband. Probably pretty typical vanilla hunting methods, I would guess.

The friends were pretty bad as she described it. The friends invited them over to play cards and had porn playing when they walked in. She says she went to the bathroom and went she come out the couple was already engaging in some oral. I think that would freak me out, to be honest.

She claims to have been approached seven times. If that's true, they must give off some swinger vibes. We were at a July 4th event back in Michigan and met a couple who worked with my mom. I remember thinking that the woman was a swinger. It was like she was at a lifestyles meeting and greet instead of a family picnic. It wasn't anything over the top, but it was obvious enough that Eve came up to me later and told me she thought they could be swingers. Who knows, but they could have been just really friendly vanillas.

[Adam-n-Eve]

By the way, I think there are some circumstances where having sex with a vanilla couple is acceptable. Let's say you meet a vanilla couple and tell them you're swingers. If their reaction is one of curiosity, and they start talking to you about it and asking questions, and they talk to each other -- if it becomes very clear that the idea is a turn on and they seem really ready to try it -- no one is going to expect you to walk away from that. I still don't think it's in their best interest, but I understand it.

[exploringRM]

Originally Posted by Adam-n-Eve

By the way, I think there are some circumstances where having sex with a vanilla couple is acceptable. Let's say you meet a vanilla couple and tell them you're swingers. If their reaction is one of curiosity, and they start talking to you about it and asking questions, and they talk to each other -- if it becomes very clear that the idea is a turn on and they seem really ready to try it -- no one is going to expect you to walk away from that. I still don't think it's in their best interest, but I understand it.

That's what I meant by a couple that are swingers but don't know it yet. Perhaps they've talked before. Perhaps have both had private thoughts about it. If things are out in the open and they are game...

And regarding couples regret the next day, how many posts are on here from newbie couples that had issues after their first experience.

I wasn't advocating trying to convert or coerce, just that if the opportunity presented itself and the other couple is truly game, then why not.

That being said, we have a hard enough time meeting a couple "cold" at a swing club much less a vanilla bar/vanilla couple.

[Adam-n-Eve]

Originally Posted by exploringRM

That's what I meant by a couple that are swingers but don't know it yet. Perhaps they've talked before. Perhaps have both had private thoughts about it. If things are out in the open and they are game...

And regarding couples regret the next day, how many posts are on here from newbie couples that had issues after their first experience.

I wasn't advocating trying to convert or coerce, just that if the opportunity presented itself and the other couple is truly game, then why not.

That being said, we have a hard enough time meeting a couple "cold" at a swing club much less a vanilla bar/vanilla couple.

I understand what you're saying, it's just that I think it's a pretty thin line that's easy to cross, to the possible detriment of the vanilla couple.

And I'm not trying to say that vanilla hunters are bad people. I'm against sleeping with a cheater, but I'm positive that if she's hot enough I'd forget all about my concerns for her husband. Sex does that to you. But, after thinking about this from a new perspective, I think I have to say I'm against it and would generally speak out against the practice on the grounds that it's unfair to the vanilla couple and their relationship. At the same time I can't say I'd walk away from a really hot couple that's just become fascinated with our lifestyle.

[slevin]

Originally Posted by Adam-n-Eve

But, is anyone really ready if they haven't talked about it? Sure, many couples would have entered into the lifestyle sooner if they'd been hunted, but how many would have had big fights the next morning because one of them did something that hurt the other?

How many people on this site would offered the advice: "don't think about, just hookup with the first couple you like!" Ready or or not, if they haven't talked about it, there's just too much danger that they're going to regret it. I don't think it's fair.

Why is it up to me to make sure that they have approached this in the proper way or not? It is their relationship, not ours. We make sure that we are good, we evaluate the situations to make sure we are comfortable, but the other couple has to do that for themselves. It isn't our responsibility.

I don't see anything wrong with approaching a vanilla couple and escalating to sex. They'd be making the decision to follow through with that. If they asked us questions and advice etc. then we'd be happy to offer up what we consider to be wisdom. If they are happy to "go with the flow" then we'd be ok with that.

We don't approach vanilla couples though, but we don't see anything wrong with it.

[Adam-n-Eve]

Originally Posted by slevin

Why is it up to me to make sure that they have approached this in the proper way or not? It is their relationship, not ours. We make sure that we are good, we evaluate the situations to make sure we are comfortable, but the other couple has to do that for themselves. It isn't our responsibility.

I don't see anything wrong with approaching a vanilla couple and escalating to sex. They'd be making the decision to follow through with that. If they asked us questions and advice etc. then we'd be happy to offer up what we consider to be wisdom. If they are happy to "go with the flow" then we'd be ok with that.

We don't approach vanilla couples though, but we don't see anything wrong with it.

OK, so you don't care if you ruin a couple's marriage. Fine. My point was that most people here will say you shouldn't swing until you've worked out the details. If you're one of these, and you go vanilla hunting, you're not being consistent in your lifestyles values.

Of course, to suggest that they should have prepared for your advances in advance of you advancing is just a cope out that allows you to feel better about not taking responsibility for the damage you visit upon an unsuspecting couple while you satisfy your sexual urges at their expense, but that's a whole other issue for another thread.

[DocWill]

In our experience (which isn’t so vast) we seem to notice that some of our vanilla friends have actually hunted us. I know… crazy, right? Mrs. Will and I have always been pretty sexual… and we’ve made no bones about how much we like to have sex with each other in the company of close friends. No, we’re not trashy, we don’t talk about our LS adventures, and no, we don’t have ANY kind of sex in front of vanilla couples or singles… but yet we both seem to give off this vibe that we’re open to sexual adventures. Mrs. Will has been approached by several of our single female vanilla friends over the past 10 years for anything from joining a husband and wife threesome (2X) or just girl on girl (5X), to straight out wanting to get it on with both of us (3X). Mrs. Will suffers from what I like to call the “girl’s girl” façade- where women who are bi-curious somehow think she’ll make the perfect experiment. I’ve tried not to read into this and just concluded that it was because Mrs. Will is VERY demure, very good looking, and knows how to act like a lady even when she’s feeling very sensuous. I, on the other hand, have been approached no less than 7 or 8 times to be one of the M’s in a MFM with vanilla married couples. Mrs. Will says it’s because I’m not threatening, also attractive, and somewhat mysterious. The kicker is, rarely anyone ever goes after us for one-on-one sex (well, it’s happened, but nowhere near the number of times we’ve been “seduced” by vanilla couples or singles). We both think that has to do with a rule we had long before we started swing- which was/is: bars, clubs, girl/guy nights out are not an option unless we go together. That may seem like a silly rule- especially in a relationship where having sex with other people is something we’re both okay with, but it works for us- and I believe it makes us appear solid as a couple rather than just one part of a couple who is “away to play.” That’s another post all together though because I digress.

Anyway, being that we both really like to analyze people and situations to the extreme, we’ve come to the conclusion that we, as an open, sexually charged, secure, confident, successful, couple, seem to be the best “option” for people who want to explore their kink- and as a result, have found ourselves in positions where weaker couples would have just jumped into bed and let the chips fall where they may. The only time we ever gave in was to one vanilla couple that had known for years. The wife in that situation instigated it (again, so the “girls” could do a little of “this” and a little of “that”) and we all ended up in bed together. The next few days were rough because the same wife that wanted it actually ended up regretting it. However, about a month later, and after A LOT of communication, we’ve now found ourselves (all four of us) engaged in some pretty hot sessions. So yes, we were hunted and seduced by a vanilla couple and we gave in without much thought. Had it been different, had the other wife not had an “Ah Ha” moment about her own sexuality, things could have been messy.

So, to answer the OP- we don’t hunt anyone unless we’re in the mood for a MFM or FMF where the third is single, professional, and attractive (and that happens a lot when we go out together because Mrs. Will gets hit on non-stop, by both sexes, even when I just get up to go to the bathroom). Couples are simply off limits unless they’ve said that they have had some good experiences and all four of us feel the itch- which will probably never happen. Although- the four of us believe that one of our own neighbors is starting to take notice… and she (of course) has started asking “those” kinds of questions to see where Mrs. Will and I’s “freak level” is at. Don’t worry, we’ll down play it like we always do… but damn, is it possible for THREE couples to get all mixed up in this? I don’t even want to think about it (yes I do).

If we want to play, we know with who and where to go to do it. Vanillas are often a fledgling swinger’s first experience because of the comfort level- at least that’s what we’ve been able to take away from this site anyway. What’s unknown is who is starting the ball rolling towards sex.

So to end (because I just got off a 26hr shift and I’m very loopy), I think both vanilla and those of us in the LS are guilty of “hunting.” I liken it to being a 15 year-old boy and going after the class slut for sexual exploration- he knows he can get some if he plays his cards right. That’s us… that’s how we appear to vanilla couples- as the “sure things” that can help them explore. Yes, THAT is dangerous, but I still think hunting for vanilla couples is worse.

Damn, I start typing and can’t stop. Sorry for the long read, just wanted to put our $0.02 in.

[socolais]

We haven't converted a vanilla couple yet, so my thoughts on this are just that - thoughts. I think vanilla hunters have a responsibility to their prey and that responsibility takes the form of respect for their relationship just as the hunter couple have respect for each other. We've known couples that pursue the "fresh meat" and describe a really fun excitement leading the vanilla couple into their first exciting swing encounter. The hunting and conversion can be done well, or it can be done poorly and when it's done poorly somebody gets hurt and this game gets a bad reputation. I do know that swinging with good hunters is a fun thing to do and I think that's because they have a well honed intuition and respect for others is as natural as breathing.

The whole concept of swinging is based on "using" another couple for our benefit. And they, likewise "use" us. When the benefits balance, everyone goes home happy. When someone gets much more than they give, someone most likely feels abused.

[sexcupid]

Originally Posted by Adam-n-Eve

OK, so you don't care if you ruin a couple's marriage. Fine. My point was that most people here will say you shouldn't swing until you've worked out the details. If you're one of these, and you go vanilla hunting, you're not being consistent in your lifestyles values.

Of course, to suggest that they should have prepared for your advances in advance of you advancing is just a cope out that allows you to feel better about not taking responsibility for the damage you visit upon an unsuspecting couple while you satisfy your sexual urges at their expense, but that's a whole other issue for another thread.

That was a bit harsh...so maybe you should actually read what slevin wrote. They stated that they do not approach vanilla couples, but do not have a problem with swingers who do.

When slevin said: "Why is it up to me to make sure that they have approached this in the proper way or not? It is their relationship, not ours. We make sure that we are good, we evaluate the situations to make sure we are comfortable, but the other couple has to do that for themselves. It isn't our responsibility."

Basically what I think they were getting at with that statement is that if a couple (vanilla or swinger) finds themselves in a situation...it is not up to me to police them...if they are majorly flirty and we all end up in a pile at someone's house they made that choice to participate...they weren't forced by the immoral swingers to have sex with them. Its called taking responsibility for your actions. My sweetie and I can only make sure we are cool with each other...the other couple is responsible for making sure they are cool with what's happening and if they aren't to call a halt to activities.

And I believe the term you were looking for is "cop out" to "cope" with what you are doing. Sorry...my inner grammar picker won't be quiet tonight.

We have hung out with some very uptight "swingers" and some very permissive "vanillas"...so while we've never tried to pick up someone from a vanilla establishment, I can see how it happens and is (or is not) successful.

[Playful1]

I dont agree with it or "get it" but that is mostly because I tend to see, from my experience, that people who like "vanilla hunting" are the ones who want to be the most 'out there" or wild couple/people in the room. They want to show how open minded and out there they are (or at least want to feel that way) and most of them, if put in a room with what I consider and know as swingers, would be the total opposite.

if that is your thing, fine, but I generally don't have a good opinion of it. Just go find what you are looking for within the swinging community. It has gotten wide/open enough that i am sure you can find something/someone that fits without going after vanilla folks.

[Adam-n-Eve]

Originally Posted by sexcupid

That was a bit harsh...

Yeah, it was harsh, but not too harsh. The suggestion that couples are supposed to be prepared for a swinger couple to come on to them and have thought through the consequences of their actions is absurd at face value. It's also callous. "I don't care if we ruin your marriage, you should have thought about that before you gave in to temptation. Of course, we tempted you, but you should talked about this long ago!" It's complete BS.

"Why is it up to me to make sure that they have approached this in the proper way or not?

They didn't approach anyone. In this fictional scenario, Slevin approach them. But they were supposed to have made sure they were prepared for Slevin's advances so that they didn't ruin their marriage? That's idiotic. Are you prepared for your husband to walk in the door in a dress and say that he wants a sex change? I hope you are, otherwise if you don't handle it well it's your fault for not approaching it in the proper way! Stupid, right? Right!

By the way, if you're going to throw out the grammar crap you should make sure your own house is in order. Your use of the ellipsis is totally out of control. The very phrase, "Sorry...my inner grammar picker won't be quiet tonight" is a shambles. You would use a comma there, never an ellipsis. Your use of an ellipsis instead of em dashes is also wrong. Also, by putting "swingers" and "vanillas" in quotes you are suggesting that they aren't really swingers or vanillas. Trust me, you don't want to correct me on grammar. I may not be the world's foremost authority, but you're not even close to being in my league. I make the occasional typo (many, actually), but I can see that I have a much better grasp on the rules of the English language than you do. For example, you need a comma after "basically" in the third paragraph. Another would be correct after "house." I literally could go on.

EDIT: Now to be honest, that was a little harsh. Sorry, it's just that this whole "vanillas beware" attitude kind of pisses me off. And it disappoints me. I'd like to think we're better than that -- we're not animals who can't control ourselves. And we all know that when it comes to sex and alcohol humans don't always make the right decisions. But hey, if it takes preying on the weak to get laid, I suppose that's the tack some would take.