What is the argument against successful swingers?

[DarkVoyuer]

I am a single person who has studied swinging for over 15 years. What I can not comprehend is how someone could morally object to swinging marriages that last over 10 years. If that marriage is happy and fulfilled, what is the valid objection? I know many couples on this board have dealt with objecting parents and close friends. When you tell them that your marriage is a success, how do they respond? I just don't get monogamists who uphold that monogamy is "the way" even when it requires discounting facts that contend otherwise. Can successful swingers who have dealt with objecting parents and friends provide me with some insight? Thanks.

[VegasLee]

It is easy for most people that have not experienced something to object to it. That is human nature.

Swinging is not for everyone. Honestly, it is not for most. I would say that 99.5% of Americans can not be in this Lifestyle and have their marriage last for a long period of time.

Just because it works for one couple does not mean it will work for the next.

We are one of those couples you are talking about. We have been together for a very long time. Six kids, Ten grandkids and counting. The Lifestyle has worked for us while we have watched most other couples we have known both in and out of the Lifestyle crash and burn. Being in the Lifestyle does not mean you are going to stay together.

I don't think there is a real answer to your question since in Today's Lifestyle I don't see it helping keep a couple together longer or better then those not in the Lifestyle.

You have doctors and counselors that tell people all the time that Swinging will not keep you together. Most of those have no personal experience in this Lifestyle so they object to it even if you show them a couple like us.

We know other couples that have been together 30, 40 or 50+ years that are swingers as we do couples that have only has sex with their spouse for all those years. How can someone object to someone not being in the Lifestyle and being married? It works for some and not for others.

It goes both ways.

"The Way" is what works for you and those you are involved with. There is no one "The Way" in todays world.

You are asking the same question about Swingers as many do about gays. How can that work? My best friend, who is gay just lost his "other" after them being together for 34 years. He died. Their way worked for them longer then most other couples in this country but many still to this day tell him it was best that JJ died because it was not "The Way" life is supposed to be. He just looks at them in amazement when they tell him that.

[JustAskJulie]

I haven't upheld it to objecting parents or family because it's none of their business. But, when it comes down to it people will object to what they don't understand no matter what you tell them. If you tell them that your relationship is rock solid they will try to poke holes in it, or convince themselves that surely there is something that is really tearing you apart and it will catch up to you in the long run. In the end, the bulk of the swinging marriages that part the divorce has nothing to do with swinging and if it does it's usually being one of the partners never wanted to swing to begin with. And that's part of the problem, outsiders never know what your true relationship is and they will always try to find a problem that doesn't exist.

[Chicup]

I think a part of the issue is you only hear of swingers as a vanilla vaguely or when it doesn't work.

So someone gets a divorce and you hear about how they were swingers, well obviously thats the reason......

You might not know your neighbors have been swingers for 30 years though.

[LikeMinds321]

Originally Posted by DarkVoyuer

Can successful swingers who have dealt with objecting parents and friends provide me with some insight? Thanks.

I don't think you'll have many replies from swingers who have told parents or friends that they swing.

Those who have reported that they were found out usually say it was by accident, without ever intending others to know.

Originally Posted by DarkVoyuer

What I can not comprehend is how someone could morally object to swinging marriages that last over 10 years.

Your time line makes no sense to me. If you are saying that after swinging for 10 years and remaining married, you become "successful" swingers, I don't see this as definitive of success. I think you're trying to say that if a couple stays married and swings for a set time then that is proof that swinging can be good for some couples and won't hurt a marriage. But I don't see it as a compelling argument or convincing anyone who opposes swinging. There is little point in trying to turn people to be pro swinging.

Couples can explore swinging early in a marriage or late into it, both can find that it doesn't work out or that they've had their fill of exploring that path and they quit within a few years. Does that mean it wasn't successful for them? I don't think so. Like other interests we explore, some we continue with for years, some we don't.

With swingers, marriages will fail just as they do with non-swingers. And the reasons likely have little or nothing to do with swinging.

I don't believe in trying to convince anyone that swinging is okay. If family or friends found out we were swingers, I'd try my best to avoid arguing about the subject. I have no interest in talking people into accepting swinging or accepting us as swingers.

What is the argument against successful swingers?

"It's not morally right. It's sinful. It's not what God wants. It will cause the end of your marriage."

Long ago I learned to stay away from discussions where people gave me the above reasons for anything they objected to.

LM

[DarkVoyuer]

Originally Posted by VegasLee

It is easy for most people that have not experienced something to object to it. That is human nature.

This is sad but true. However, how come the same principle does not apply to monogamy. Look how many people have failed in monogamous marriages repeatedly. Yet, those same people will boldly tell you that your lifestyle will not produce the level of love that a monogamous relationship will.

Swinging is not for everyone. Honestly, it is not for most. I would say that 99.5% of Americans can not be in this Lifestyle and have their marriage last for a long period of time.

Is this primarily because of their biology or is it because they refuse to control their feelings of sexual exclusivity?

We are one of those couples you are talking about. We have been together for a very long time. Six kids, Ten grandkids and counting. The Lifestyle has worked for us while we have watched most other couples we have known both in and out of the Lifestyle crash and burn. Being in the Lifestyle does not mean you are going to stay together.

I guess what I don't understand is how can anyone close to you have an objection toward what you do if you have long lasting and successful marriage. It is absolutely baffling to me.

You have doctors and counselors that tell people all the time that Swinging will not keep you together. Most of those have no personal experience in this Lifestyle so they object to it even if you show them a couple like us.

I can see this is part of the reason for their objection but I know several childless individuals who believe parenting is fulfilling. I just don't believe this reason primarily applies to the objection toward swinging.

We know other couples that have been together 30, 40 or 50+ years that are swingers as we do couples that have only has sex with their spouse for all those years. How can someone object to someone not being in the Lifestyle and being married? It works for some and not for others.

I agree.

[DarkVoyuer]

Originally Posted by LikeMinds321

I don't think you'll have many replies from swingers who have told parents or friends that they swing.

I think it is sad that most swingers feel they have to remain in the closet. I have heard so many stories of swingers going out of their way to conceal their lifestyle. Does this occassionally bother you? I know that you have to accept some things as they are but are there times where you are outraged by the brutal unfairness? I am not a swinger and I can see how some swingers with courage flatout rebel against the blind loyalty towards monogammy. Perhaps that is a reason why I probably would not consider swinging. I would feel that concealing this lifestyle is an insult to my pride. I don't know how you guys continue to put up with this non-sense from mainstream society.

Your time line makes no sense to me. If you are saying that after swinging for 10 years and remaining married, you become "successful" swingers, I don't see this as definitive of success.

My point in presenting this example is to refute the argument that swinging innnately puts a marriage at severe risk. Many people claim present horror stories of swingers falling in love with their playmates which ultimately leads to divorce in their marriages. I do agree that there is truly NO defintion of a successful marriage.

But I don't see it as a compelling argument or convincing anyone who opposes swinging. There is little point in trying to turn people to be pro swinging.

I guess you are trying to say there is NO reason which will convince anti-swingers even if you have a 25 year swinging marriage. I think their attitude makes no sense. How can someone arrogantly declare that your lifestyle is harmful when you have a successful marriage? I just find that attitude irritating.

What is the argument against successful swingers?

"It's not morally right. It's sinful. It's not what God wants. It will cause the end of your marriage.

I would look at them and ask WHY? Do they realize that their reasons are very shallow? If you are arguing with a secular monogamist, I don't see how they can look at themselves with intellectual self respect and maintain that position. Monogammy was invented to protect marriage. If it is not needed to protect marriages from falling apart, what is the moral purpose of it? These are questions that monogamists fail to ask themselves. It's sad that swingers feel the need to accomodate monogamists' disgust of the swinging lifestyle by hiding it.

[two4youinswva]

Originally Posted by DarkVoyuer

I think it is sad that most swingers feel they have to remain in the closet. I have heard so many stories of swingers going out of their way to conceal their lifestyle. Does this occassionally bother you? I know that you have to accept some things as they are but are there times where you are outraged by the brutal unfairness? I am not a swinger and I can see how some swingers with courage flatout rebel against the blind loyalty towards monogammy. Perhaps that is a reason why I probably would not consider swinging. I would feel that concealing this lifestyle is an insult to my pride. I don't know how you guys continue to put up with this non-sense from mainstream society.

Even prior to our swinging years, I wasn't one to discuss my sex life with others, nor did I really care to hear about theirs. So, not telling folks that we swing really isn't a thing for us. It's a very small part of who we are, so I don't feel the need to come out to the world.

I actually enjoy the concealment in a way. We've talked on here before about being part of a "Secret Society", for lack of a better description. It's fun to us to have this separate life that very few know about.

[DarkVoyuer]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

I haven't upheld it to objecting parents or family because it's none of their business. But, when it comes down to it people will object to what they don't understand no matter what you tell them.

If you tell them that your relationship is rock solid they will try to poke holes in it, or convince themselves that surely there is something that is really tearing you apart and it will catch up to you in the long run.

I absolutely agree with you. Can you please share some of ways where they attempt "to poke holes" in the credibility of your relationship. I am very curious. I am sure they are very comical? Please entertain me.

Like I said in a previous reply, I just find it extremely unfair that swingers feel the need to conceal their lifestyle to accomodate the moral revulsion towards swinging by large segments of mainstream society.

You mentioned that people will object to what they don't understand. Although heterosexism still exist, gays and lesbians have a significantly higher standing in mainstream society than swingers. However, most of the straight people who defend their rights have no interest in homosexuality. Thus, it could be argued that these people do not understand same sex desire. Why is this movement been significantly more successful than the swinging movement?




[qoute]In the end, the bulk of the swinging marriages that part the divorce has nothing to do with swinging and if it does it's usually being one of the partners never wanted to swing to begin with. And that's part of the problem, outsiders never know what your true relationship is and they will always try to find a problem that doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]

From my observation, I noticed that the divorce rate for swingers is around 10%. Is this accurate?

[socolais]

Originally Posted by DarkVoyuer

Like I said in a previous reply, I just find it extremely unfair that swingers feel the need to conceal their lifestyle to accomodate the moral revulsion towards swinging by large segments of mainstream society.

I don't really know about it being "unfair", but it's simply a path of least resistance for us. I'm open to discussion with anyone that wants my opinions and observations. But when they describe me as morally bankrupt, the conversation ends.

When we talk about marriage success among swingers, not only do we have to define success but we have to define swingers too. Mark Twain said, "there's lies, damn lies, and statistics". Given the general concealment of the swingers, meaningful numbers are near impossible.

If I'm willing to believe what I read on the internet, the societal default of strict monogamy traces back to the early days of the Catholic church - St. Augustine was an influential proponent of sexual aceticism. Behaviors that violate those puritanical values are quickly labeled immoral without analyzing their potential value.

I think cheaters sometimes get more forgiveness from general society than us misguided swingers.

[VegasLee]

Originally Posted by DarkVoyuer

Like I said in a previous reply, I just find it extremely unfair that swingers feel the need to conceal their lifestyle to accomodate the moral revulsion towards swinging by large segments of mainstream society.


From my observation, I noticed that the divorce rate for swingers is around 10%. Is this accurate?

First off, we don't hide from anyone. We are just as out as people that are not in the Lifestyle. We have never hidden it. Our children know and everyone else that knows us knows our Lifestyle. Many/Most will stay in the closet because they have their own reasons for doing so. I know 100's of Swingers that are "out" and have no problem with what anyone else thinks about their choices in life.

As in your other thread. please show a real source for your divorce rate. After thirty years in this Lifestyle and many more in Life I don't believe it is anywhere close to being that low. Once upon a time, many years ago it was lower but in the Lifestyle today I feel the divorce rate would be close to what the "regular" world is in America. I see 800 to 1000 people that claim to be swingers each week and I know for a fact that their rate of divorce is much higher then what you keep quoting.

[SW_PA_Couple]

Originally Posted by DarkVoyuer

I am a single person who has studied swinging for over 15 years. What I can not comprehend is how someone could morally object to swinging marriages that last over 10 years. If that marriage is happy and fulfilled, what is the valid objection? I know many couples on this board have dealt with objecting parents and close friends. When you tell them that your marriage is a success, how do they respond? I just don't get monogamists who uphold that monogamy is "the way" even when it requires discounting facts that contend otherwise. Can successful swingers who have dealt with objecting parents and friends provide me with some insight? Thanks.

I have no trouble comprehending the moral objections. They typically derive from religious and social traditions that go back thousands of years. I do not pretend to know better than they. Happily, we live within a system that is based upon the rule of law rather than moral behaviour.

I will not be able to provide insight on how to deal with the objections of parents or friends. Have never had to deal with it. Might be interesting to hear from people who have.

[DarkVoyuer]

Originally Posted by socolais

I don't really know about it being "unfair", but it's simply a path of least resistance for us. I'm open to discussion with anyone that wants my opinions and observations. But when they describe me as morally bankrupt, the conversation ends.

I find that judgement of you being "morally bankrupt" completely out of line! It is simply an incorrect perception of your lifestyle. These types of attitudes make no sense. What is the point of the moral code of sexual abstinence outside of marriage when swingers really have no need for it? Why should you be loyal to a moral ideal just for the sake of it? If I were a swinger I would have less of a thick skin.

[DarkVoyuer]

Originally Posted by VegasLee

First off, we don't hide from anyone. We are just as out as people that are not in the Lifestyle. We have never hidden it. Our children know and everyone else that knows us knows our Lifestyle. Many/Most will stay in the closet because they have their own reasons for doing so.

I think most swingers are in the closet because of society finds it morally revolting. Do you agree? I don't blame them for hiding their lifestyle. It is just a shame that it has to be that way.

Once upon a time, many years ago it was lower but in the Lifestyle today I feel the divorce rate would be close to what the "regular" world is in America. I see 800 to 1000 people that claim to be swingers each week and I know for a fact that their rate of divorce is much higher then what you keep quoting.

I have read several sources. From my understanding, all of the sources claim that the swingers' divorce rate is lower than traditional marriage. This is my personal research. Perhaps there is research that will contend otherwise.

Even if the divorce rate was equal to traditional marriage, it clearly proves that swinging can be effective for many people. If I were a swinger, I would not be as polite in responding to negative myths towards this lifestyle. I would take it extremely personal. It amazes me how many swingers seem to handle these attitudes.

[DarkVoyuer]

Originally Posted by two4youinswva

Even prior to our swinging years, I wasn't one to discuss my sex life with others, nor did I really care to hear about theirs. So, not telling folks that we swing really isn't a thing for us. It's a very small part of who we are, so I don't feel the need to come out to the world.

I actually enjoy the concealment in a way. We've talked on here before about being part of a "Secret Society", for lack of a better description. It's fun to us to have this separate life that very few know about.

I understand. Do you ever find it a burden to conceal your lifestyle? Is it a challenge to conceal it?