Sex with friends

[IvoryTowers]

Over and over I've seen people say that sex with friends is a bad idea, especially with vanilla friends. I'm wondering if I'm the only person who has had successful sexual encounters with friends?

Before we were officially swinging, Mr. Ivory and I had 3 threesomes, 2 of which were completely successful and fun, and one of which was okay. None of these resulted in any problems, although the fact that all 3 people lived fairly far away and therefore we don't see them often might be a factor.

I (Mrs. Ivory) also had a foursome with my best friend, her then boyfriend, and my other best friend. This was, gads, at least a decade ago, and we are all still close. There's no question of the sexual encounter being repeated, as the then boyfriend, now husband is very monogamy driven.

In each case, the play was fairly spontaneous, arising out of a specific context and it was clear from the start that this was just for fun. After it was over, we all went back to being friends.

Is this really so unusual or have other people had one offs that didn't damage the friendship? And have people actually had sex ruin friendships or is this more of an assumed result?

[Chicup]

The reason for not bringing existing vanilla friends into swinging is not because of what happens when it works but when it doesn't work.

Swinging can be a high stress activity for some people, especially new people. Most of the swinging with vanilla friends people, either one or both couples are swinging virgins, so the chance for that initial drama is high.

If everyone is on the same page and turns out to be 'swinger mindset' then its fine, its great, congratulations for all.

But when it doesn't work it will often not only kill that friendship but can bring other vanilla life aspects into play and other parties.

I'm going to give an example of this from a couple we know who this turned into a minor disaster for them.

They went on a vacation on a cruise with a vanilla couple they have known for years, long prior to them swinging. It turns out that the vanilla wife wasn't 100% happy with her sex life and long had the hots for the swinger husband. These people are all drinkers and most likely spent most of the cruise inebriated. Well one night they all go back to one room and start to get frisky. The non-swinger husband pretty much falls asleep from the long day + alcohol and the swinger couple and the wife continue play. Well the next morning he regrets the whole thing but they plan on doing a swap that night so he is involved. Well he can't handle it and nothing happens, they almost get divorced, he tells people he knows who are mutual vanilla friends of the swinger couple and the shit hits the fan so to speak.

Now you can say that alcohol was a major factor in the screw up, but this is just the one story about this kind of thing I know. I have seen couples go into swinging perfectly sober and open to the idea and then they have the major first time drama bomb explode, but at least when it does it only takes them out, and doesn't bring in others you know, work with, or family.

What playing with friends does is bring in a lot of potential collateral damage, and I just can't recommend it as a way for newbies because it might be so much worse than typical swinger drama.

[shymxcpl]

Well stated Chicup.

It's not that it can't be done. It's just that it might be riskier and so you have to take certain precautions.

For us the question is "How do we feel about loosing the relationship with our vanilla friend(s)?" If we can take it and it's no big deal, then by all means try it. However if your VF(s) are important to you then you might not want to stir up a dangerous proposal like swinging unless you are really sure of what their reaction would be.

We've done it several times. The first case was with a male friend. We became distanced and then he got a divorce

Second time was with a single female friend.... distanced.

Third was with another SFF, who went along with it somewhat but is still unsure of what to think. And she is VERY LIBERAL.

Now we try to stick to our Swinger friends... it's just easier.

[TNT]

We've had quite a few foursomes and threesomes with vanilla friends. However, it's still something that we don't recommend nor is it something that we pursue.

In all cases, we had been friends for a lot of years and still remain friends to this day. None of the relationships were weird afterward and they continue pretty much like they always have, with just a new dimension added to the friendship. Some we still play with, some we don't. Those that we don't play with, the friendship has continued on leaving playing out of it.

I think it is very unusual for swingers to play with vanilla friends and still have the relationship remain intact.

Due to the feelings/emotional part of a vanilla friendship being involved, it takes even more communication than your normal swinger/swinger relationship. You're opening up your vanilla friendship to a part of your life that few friends really talk about in depth. You're taking a huge risk of having your friends judge you and not be able to handle what it is you do.

In a swinger/swinger relationship...it pretty much starts out due to sex, there's no real worry about being judge because you came together because of the same thing...sex. It will either evolve into a true friendship or fade away with no real feelings being hurt.

It's wonderful when vanilla friends are able to make it work but...it is very rare I think.


Teresa

[good times]

I think that more often than not it doesn't work out very well. The example Chicup gave is one reason, but more important for me is that whether it works out for good or not, the friendship will not be the same. I think this is why we rarely play with friends we have made in the lifestyle. The expectation of sex whenever we see our friends seems to get in the way of just being friends.

We have noticed one thing though, it is easier to play with friends who live further away that we don't interact with every day. Don't really know why that is, but it seems to be that way with us.

[xxoticangel]

We've done it successfully but still strongly advise against it. The one friend that became a playmate went back to being just a friend when he began a serious with the girl that eventually became his wife.
Distance helps. He moved to Denver soon after we started playing and we only saw him a couple of times a year after that.
He and hubby still talk via email but I have had no contact with him since before his wedding. If he were still closer I'm not sure that 1) he wouldn't still try to play on the side or 2) that he would still be part of our lives if we didn't play.
Sex changes everything in a relationship and you can't unring the bell.

[Brian and Jo]

We have also swung successfully with vanilla friends. You can read all about our experience in the swingers stories section.

[iapr]

This is an interesting discussion and one well worth some serious exploration.

I have been one of the stauchest antagonists of wannabes hitting on their traditional vanilla friends and will probably remain so untill it can be proven to me beyond reasonable doubt that it is not a bad idea.

That being said however, one of my favorite encounters was a FMF with one of my best friends sisters that I have known since I was ten years old and we have also considered putting out some feelers and dropping some hints to one of my wife's childhood friends and her husband so I guess I am not completely above a certain level of hypocrasy

What I see as a key between the two concepts is the level of experience and self awareness of the people involved and their ability to communicate their intentions, expectations and boundries with everyone involved.

In the case of our FMF the other fem had had some swinging experience in the past with a former spouse and when she read the signs and made the connections and realized we were swingers she jumped on the opportunity to play. since the encounter we have been able to communicate our thoughts and intentions and have remained as vanilla friends without damage to our vanilla friendship. Distance has been mentioned and she is far enough away and we all have busy enough lives that we are not in consistent contact.

In the case of my wife's friends, their fem half has lived an openly bisexual/lesbian lifestyle for many years and has made her attraction to my wife clear. When we have been around them as two couples we have picked up on a variety of "signs" that they may either be in the lifestyle or are at least aware the lifestyle exists and they may be friendly to the idea. They also live several hours away and we do not have close or consistant contact with them.

I believe that my wife and I are experienced and self aware enough that we can make our interests known to either of these people and that we will all be able to communicate effectively enough to avoid any damaging outcomes.

I will most likely remain an antagonist of wannabes who do not realize their limits and interests yet, hitting on their completely unaware vanilla friends who may not have had a single converstation about swinging yet.

However I am also a believer in consenting adults making informed conscious decisions and if people know what they want, know what they are doing and have an ability to communicate effectively I think there is a little wiggle room there.

Is that all clear as mud?

[iapr]

Ok so after I said all that maybe I can sum it up like this -

Wannabes/newbies who have not had any experience yet hitting on close traditional vanilla friends who probably have also probably not had any experience or any conversations about swinging yet = BAD IDEA

Experienced self-aware swingers with good SWINGDAR and good communication skills sending out some feelers to a couple they sincerly believe may be open and agreeable to swinging = MAYBE

Any thoughts, ideas or comments on that?

[MrkLin]

There's a lot of merit to what you say, iapr. I don't know that I'd limit it to just newbies, but your point is well taken. Some people just get caught up in the moment, and think they're hearing/feeling/seeing something that just isn't there. We all know people who flirt mercilessly, but where the rubber hits the road, they'd absolutely freak if they thought for one second someone was serious about getting naked and horizontal. The ability to keep things in perspective and realize that teasing and flirting are very different from an invitation to play is something that does come with experience, but also comes with good judgment.

Having said all of that, it all comes down to the couple (or person) who is pinging your playdar. I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and sometimes I don't take a hint, but if there's a blatant invitation set before me, I'll certainly react to it in one way or another - whether that be going for it or tactfully turning the person (couple) down.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in cases where you're just not 100% sure that a blatant invitation to play has been extended to you, you need to decide whether or not this is the hill you want to die on with regards to this person (couple.) If you're right, and they want to take you to bed, then you'll have to go from there. If you're not, and it's just alcohol or hormones talking, then you stand a very good chance of losing a friend. If you really think that friendship is worth losing over a sexual misunderstanding, then you have your own answer - I would caution you to think on it long and hard though (no pun intended.)

Also, do not discount 'the morning after regrets' if something should happen. You have irreversibly changed your relationship with that person, and some people just can't handle that. You can't unring a bell - so you had better be sure that you're willing to accept the consequences before you grab the rope and do your Quasimodo impression.

Yes, swinging with vanilla friends can work. The thing to remember is that for every story about a successful playtime with a vanilla friend, there are at least 5 stories about absolute disasters. Given 1 in 5 odds, I'd tend to err on the side of caution. Yeah, you might not ever play with that person - but you'll still have their friendship and respect. You have to decide how important that is to you and act accordingly.

[VanHlebar]

This is a timely topic. Many will recall my blunder from back in the holidays that outed MrsVan and I to our best friends. Nothing has happened with this couple as far as actually swapping, but last night proved to be a very interesting evening at their place. We have been going to their place a few times a month to play cards etc and nothing out of the ordinary occurs. A lot of sexual inuendo and such but that is it.

Then last night we are playing sequence and the husband some how suggests / starts a strip version. Well us guys ended up naked and the ladies ended with just their bras on.

So while we have not played with this couple and may very well never do so because they are our great vanilla friends, I think that it is possible to have such a friendship to turn into playmates, but it is rare and yes would require major communication among all parties.

In the end I still think it is a bad idea, even in our situation, but if everyone talks and maybe if you take it slow then who know. I think another issue is drinking, in our situation last night, we where drinking but nobody was close to being drunk and everyone was fully aware of what was going on. I think that makes a huge difference!

-Van

[toycple]

We had an experiance recently that kinda deals with this. We have some friends that approached us with the idea of swapping. They knew we were in the lifestyle for a long time. Now even though they were vanilla friends with us they had tried swapping one time before, but it didn't work out to well (the other couple was actually some other close friends of ours and we have swapped with them before too, and still get together with from time to time, but that is a longer story). Well we decided that since they had one experience before, and we know them so well, we would go ahead with it. We figured they are making the conscious to move into swinging and it would be easier for them with people they know and are comfortable, with many years of swinging experience behind them. The evening went well and everyone had a great time. They have since seemed to be more outgoing and have taken the inititive to check out a swinger club near them, they have invitited us along for the first time there, but I think it will open more doors for them and allow them to meet even more people near them.

[oc1234]

I guess my wife and I are in the minority. We were introduced to swinging by friends. It was not something we expected, but it was something we really enjoyed. The next morning, my wife and I asked ourselves, "Did that really happen?" All we could think about for the next few weeks was how great it was and how much we wanted to do it again.

Even though they have gotten divorced, we are still friends with both of them. We still play with him sometimes.

[SW_PA_Couple]

Originally Posted by oc1234

I guess my wife and I are in the minority. We were introduced to swinging by friends. It was not something we expected, but it was something we really enjoyed. The next morning, my wife and I asked ourselves, "Did that really happen?" All we could think about for the next few weeks was how great it was and how much we wanted to do it again.

Even though they have gotten divorced, we are still friends with both of them. We still play with him sometimes.

Oh, wow. So it does sometimes happen like on the TV programme, Swingtown. It's nice to have an unexpected pleasure, I'm sure.

[Tadahiko]

Frankly, this question is what drew me to this board. I stumbled on a number of threads in the archive that debated the merits (or lack thereof) of sex with close friends (and in-laws, non-blood relatives, etc.) A lot of swingers seemed to have the opinion, "swinging with strangers is cool, but sex with people I have a larger, non-sexual relationship with? Ick!"
I have to wonder, why is that an "ick?" As a non-swinger, I would be more uncomfortable having sex with strangers. Not just the big health/disease question there, but it just would make me emotionally uptight -- "Ick, I don't know anything about you." On the other hand, we've swapped with my sister-in-law and her husband, watched my wife give my best buddy a blowjob, discussed orgasms sexual positions and past lovers with my mother-in-law, and my wife and I regularly have sex with her best friend. And in all of that, I haven't found much to worry about or go "ick" over at any time.